 Six vs. Four, make a decision |
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| Pat Garvey |
  Aug 30 2009, 08:45 PM
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#61
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Do I or don't I...........?  Group: Members Posts: 5,900 Joined: 24-March 06 From: SE PA, near Philly Member No.: 5,765 Region Association: North East States  |
Look, you all know that I am a curmodgeon. A mis sized six to me is somewhere between a 2.2 & 3.0 motor. Never cared much for the 2.2 in my E, and wouldn't want the long term hassles of a 2.7 (though it IS a sweat motor). The 3.0 is pretty much bulletproof but just doesn't look "period" in a 914.
I'd vote for a simple, easy to maintain 2.4 CIS motor. Looks close to correct, but gives a little extra poop over the stock 2 liter. Yeah, I know, it isn't carbed, but I'm only dreaming here anyway. Pat |
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| gothspeed |
Aug 30 2009, 09:48 PM
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#62
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,539 Joined: 3-February 09 From: SoCal Member No.: 10,019 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Aug 30 2009, 07:43 PM)  I try to keep peak HP at 6,000 RPM.. When I have tuned for higher peak output the precious torque was compromised. Smart people know that torque is more important than HP.. HP sells engines, torque wins races. RPM= friction. friction= heat. Heat and friction= wear The key to our success has been keeping engines alive and exceeding power output expectations.. Torque has been the key to all of that, HP not so much. I am happy you have done all this development on the type IV ....... this way I only have to build a solid Raby kit and go (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .................... I will probably go weber carbureted 'initially' ......... my 914 is a 1.7 and will need a 71mm crank at conversion time ........ I am not worried about 'perfect' drive-ability ..... just as long as it doesn't die on decel ......... or overheat (I will run additional oil cooling) ....... other than that .... 150 HP-ish should make me and my GT clone very happy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) |
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| Jake Raby |
Aug 30 2009, 10:16 PM
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#63
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,398 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
QUOTE QUOTE I am very familiar with how HP is made ..... Torque x RPM / 5252 = HP ...... a lot of racers like 'low RPM' torque, to get out of corners with a wallop .......... 6000 RPM peak HP is plenty good............. .and provide excellent drive-ability.. Thats part of the design of my kit engines, HP, TQ, reliability and drive-ability! QUOTE . my passion/experience is with higher RPM DOHC engines of other makes, so I was hoping to get some of that 'sound' her e sound is something I put virtually zero development in.. My experience with engines that sound good is thats about the only thing that they do worth a damn. They sell well, but don't work worth a shit. QUOTE ...... ...... but it will not break my heart if these engines are not well suited for higher RPM. trust me, I can get you 9,000 RPM, but you won't have any torque and won't have power below 5K RPM.. Thats not what you need. QUOTE I am happy you have done all this development on the type IV ....... this way I only have to build a solid Raby kit and go That was the idea when i started selling kits over a decade ago. .................... I will probably go weber carbureted 'initially' ......... my 914 is a 1.7 and will need a 71mm crank at conversion time That keeps it simple. QUOTE ........ I am not worried about 'perfect' drive-ability ..... just as long as it doesn't die on decel ...... Every kit I have offers excellent drive-ability.. Whether you think its important or not, it is.. Because it drives so damn good you'll drive it more often. QUOTE . or overheat (I will run additional oil cooling) Do some searches.. I haven't had an overheating complaint in at least 7 years, the designs lend themselves to efficiency and that breeds cool running. QUOTE ....... other than that .... 150 HP-ish should make me and my GT clone very happy At 150HP these cars become fun... The revised kit program has several more medium output engines offered... But like everything else, prices are going up. |
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| Challe |
Aug 31 2009, 06:43 AM
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#64
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Member Group: Members Posts: 60 Joined: 25-September 07 From: Sweden, Europe Member No.: 8,149 |
QUOTE I am really tired of the whole thing with which is the best way to go......... I gave up on the 914 market a long time ago, and now if I sell one for a 914 I consider it a freak thing. I have a buyer for the plans to 9 of my 914 engine combos and if things keep up I'll be selling them at the first of the year. The buyer is in Europe, where conversions are more trouble than they are worth, literally. Damn, I think I just wet my pants! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif) I didn't notice that this was an old thread, so when I continued to read the posts I was reliefed when I read jakes lasts posts. I'm a 911 lover and when I bought my 914 it was with plans to have it GT flared, and conversation to a 6. It will cost about the same as to restore a early 911 but I wanted something different. After the first year with the 914 I started to like it as it was, and after 2 years of sorting out the car my plans has changed completly. Now I have started to put back parts that wasn't orginal and my future plans is to keep it so it looks stock but uppgrade the brakes and in a 3-5 year span put in something stronger from Jakes magic shop. I will even keep the 4 lugs fuchs. The only reason to not do the engine upgrade right now is that I wanted to feel how the car was when it leaved the factory, the engine and gearbox has been overhaulded and I have put in a lot of work and a bit of funds to get it there, so right now I enjoy it as it is and can take my time to figure out how I want my engine upgrade, the only thing I know is that a 6 conversation is not for me. |
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| morgan_harwell |
Aug 31 2009, 09:17 AM
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#65
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Ha! Finally snuck up on a camera! Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 28-January 03 From: Santa Cruz Mtns., Ca. Member No.: 203 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(Pat Garvey @ Aug 30 2009, 07:45 PM) "I'd vote for a simple, easy to maintain 2.4 CIS motor. Looks close to correct, but gives a little extra poop over the stock 2 liter. Yeah, I know, it isn't carbed, but I'm only dreaming here anyway." Pat Yep! Exactly what I was thinking back in 1987. So I did the 2.4T-CIS-six conversion over the winter of 1987-88. My 2.4L-CIS motor has been very easy to maintain, gets great gas mileage, is ultra reliable, and is very long lived. 22 years later, it is still runing strong. I am extremely happy with this engine. Maintenence: Tune it up once a year and replace seals once in awhile. Gas Mileage: it gets 2-3 better MPG than the carbed 2.0L/4 it replaced (and is much faster!). Reliability: 1 alternator replacement, 1 distributor replacement, 2 clutches, valve guides recently. Long lived: The 2.4T engine already had 90K on it when I bought/installed it in 1987. It has ~295K miles on it now. My only complaint: I wish the seals lived as long as the engine. 2nd complaint: I'd like to put a 3.2L-DME engine in the 914, but the 2.4L-CIS engine just won't quit! QUOTE(Pat Garvey @ Aug 30 2009, 07:45 PM) "The 3.0 is pretty much bulletproof ..." Boy! You said it brother! Our 911SC still has its original (never been apart) 3.0L-CIS engine in it. Today that engine has 326K miles on it. BulletProof! You can't kill it, it just runs and runs and .... |
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| ME733 |
Aug 31 2009, 10:09 AM
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#66
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 842 Joined: 25-June 08 From: Atlanta Ga. Member No.: 9,209 Region Association: South East States |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) The reason I voted for a ...4...four is....I prefer a small displacement engine..2.0. + or - or so, which can rev-up fast , peaky race cammed,and with lots of rpm,s..and H.P...I like the "screaming windup" of the F-1 sound. Of course this is matched with a VERY short ratio gearbox. As a old bastard, thats been "around the block" in many types of racing (porsches) My fun is now limited to driving thru the deserted, remote, backroads of a neighboring county. Stoping to feed the horses, deer , and move the turtles off the pavement. I am very Happy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
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| SLITS |
Aug 31 2009, 06:11 PM
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#67
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"This Utah shit is HARSH!" Group: Benefactors Posts: 13,602 Joined: 22-February 04 From: SoCal Mountains ... Member No.: 1,696 Region Association: None  |
Both (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
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| cobra94563 |
Sep 1 2009, 01:17 AM
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#68
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Chris Group: Members Posts: 341 Joined: 1-March 05 From: San Francisco Member No.: 3,696 |
For me, I would need 250-300hp, so that pretty much eliminates the 3L and 4's. I'd do the 3.2 if the budget was $20k or more (and hang with the porsche groups). $15k or less, the chevy or subie (and hang with the muscle crowd.)
I have a v8 now, but those L33 aluminum engine look tempting and cheap! |
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| Jake Raby |
Sep 1 2009, 06:59 AM
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#69
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,398 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
250HP from an N/A /4 on pump gas is a possibility.. In the past 4 years we've built 1/2 dozen of them... All twin plug beasts and one (265HP) was only 2.3 liters. The others were al 2.9 and 3.0 engines.
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| gothspeed |
Sep 1 2009, 04:37 PM
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#70
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,539 Joined: 3-February 09 From: SoCal Member No.: 10,019 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 1 2009, 05:59 AM) 250HP from an N/A /4 on pump gas is a possibility.. In the past 4 years we've built 1/2 dozen of them... All twin plug beasts and one (265HP) was only 2.3 liters. The others were al 2.9 and 3.0 engines. Dang (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif) !!!!! I guess I should up my expectations from 150HP ........... how much power is possible from N/A, weber carbureted, 91 octane and single plug (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) ? ........ as of today ...... things got one solid step closer .......... to the big four ......... but still a quite a few steps to go ......... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stirthepot.gif) |
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| Jake Raby |
Sep 1 2009, 07:58 PM
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#71
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,398 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
210 easily.. with dual Weber 44s.
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| ghuff |
Sep 1 2009, 09:37 PM
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#72
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This is certainly not what I expected down here. Group: Members Posts: 849 Joined: 21-May 09 From: Bodymore Murderland Member No.: 10,389 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
I am looking at it this way:
FOr the price of a built 6, I can make probably 200+whp on a near stock Type IV with boost. If/when I blow it up, I can swap it out and build another much better all while being under the cost of a six conversion and the 6 motor parts price tag. If you want to go to a relatively modern turbo 6, your price goes way up apparently. Bang for the $$$ and with modern turbo technology in mind, 4 pot is the way to go. |
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| carreraguy |
Sep 2 2009, 12:00 AM
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#73
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It's not your dad's 914! Group: Members Posts: 1,197 Joined: 17-October 03 From: San Jose, CA Member No.: 1,256 Region Association: Northern California |
In 25 words or less, my reasons for going Subie turbo:
- easier to maintain modern engine, - lighter compared to a small block Chevy, - reliable 215 RWHP plus tunable to more if desired. |
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| budman5201 |
Sep 2 2009, 04:47 PM
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#74
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 595 Joined: 1-April 07 From: tempe, az Member No.: 7,635 |
QUOTE(carreraguy @ Sep 1 2009, 11:00 PM) In 25 words or less, my reasons for going Subie turbo: - easier to maintain modern engine, - lighter compared to a small block Chevy, - reliable 215 RWHP plus tunable to more if desired. Only 215? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif) Here let me tune that baby up to 252 like mine! |
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| gothspeed |
Sep 2 2009, 05:02 PM
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#75
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,539 Joined: 3-February 09 From: SoCal Member No.: 10,019 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Sep 1 2009, 06:58 PM) 210 easily.. with dual Weber 44s. One cannot argue with that ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif) !!! ....... if/when I get my 914 to about 1800-1900 pounds (in street trim) ....... it should be a little monster ..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) |
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| underthetire |
Sep 2 2009, 05:06 PM
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#76
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,062 Joined: 7-October 08 From: Brentwood Member No.: 9,623 Region Association: Northern California |
I voted other. I want a rotary. Light and fast.
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| carreraguy |
Sep 2 2009, 09:55 PM
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#77
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It's not your dad's 914! Group: Members Posts: 1,197 Joined: 17-October 03 From: San Jose, CA Member No.: 1,256 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(budman5201 @ Sep 2 2009, 03:47 PM) QUOTE(carreraguy @ Sep 1 2009, 11:00 PM) In 25 words or less, my reasons for going Subie turbo: - easier to maintain modern engine, - lighter compared to a small block Chevy, - reliable 215 RWHP plus tunable to more if desired. Only 215? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif) Here let me tune that baby up to 252 like mine! Sure Budman - I'll be right over! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'll be visiting a local tuner as soon as I free up a few more $$. |
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| gothspeed |
Sep 4 2009, 02:34 PM
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#78
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,539 Joined: 3-February 09 From: SoCal Member No.: 10,019 Region Association: None |
This thread needs to stay on the first page ......... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif) ......... I will be working on my interior this holiday weekend ........... but the thought of having 200+ hp in my 914 is changing my priorities ....... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drooley.gif)
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| Todd Enlund |
Sep 4 2009, 05:15 PM
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#79
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Resident Photoshop Guru Group: Members Posts: 3,252 Joined: 24-August 07 From: Reed (Portland), Oregon Member No.: 8,032 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
I voted big 4, because that is my plan.
If the budget allowed, I'd love a 2.5 short stroke twin plug six. Money no object would involve a Hartley H1. 2.8 L 400 HP @ 10,000 rpm 275 ft-lb @ 7,500 rpm 200 lbs  |
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| gothspeed |
Sep 4 2009, 05:46 PM
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#80
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,539 Joined: 3-February 09 From: SoCal Member No.: 10,019 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(Todd Enlund @ Sep 4 2009, 04:15 PM) I voted big 4, because that is my plan. If the budget allowed, I'd love a 2.5 short stroke twin plug six. Money no object would involve a Hartley H1. 2.8 L 400 HP @ 10,000 rpm 275 ft-lb @ 7,500 rpm 200 lbs Dude you are the man for posting about this engine ....... 10k rpm sounds awesome ........ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/w00t.gif) !!!!! What are the prices for this little monster .... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) ?? EDIT: .............. I just looked it up ..... it will be about $30,000 ........... which sounds ok depending on what is included ....... is it full running with stacks and ECU? ....... or just a long block? .......... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) One may also need to change to a taller ring and pinion on the stock 904 GB ........ |
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