EP 914 on track... finally, Test session, wet Options

[Brad Roberts]

nein 14... (first give me your name so I dont feel stupid...LOL)

I can get together EVERY 914 racer you have ever seen to help on rule changes IF you think it will help.


B

[Brett W]

So what is the six stuck with right now? Any restrictions other than the carb size?

[Thorshammer]

Lets see,

Brad, They are 5/8 in every place except the shift tower, where they are 1/2. Remember I am shifting a Hewland, not a porsche trans. Plus the centerline of the linkage is completely parralel and only deviates 3 inches. I hope it will be okay. Will be good to see the flares and pricing too.

914-6 used to be Limited prep, so maybe your GCR is out of date but has been a full prep car for 1 year. So anything goes, and it is that is going.

Chris,

Yeah, had to change the cage a bit. Thanks for the splendid work you did for me. Anyone wanting to build a racecar really should contact Chris for the rear suspension mod, it really is done well. Oh, and is reasonably priced.

Headers; The headers on the car are from Mark Eschucie, they will get burns stainless collectors on the ends and then come together under the Hewland then exit Right and left through two Yoshimura Stainless Steel Exhaust cannisters 2 1/2 inches inlet and outlet.

As for the rest of the car. I am looking for a couple things.
-Really good Spark plug wires for an electromotive. I know I will have to make them, but an unsure of where to get the pieces reasonable and also with the seals to seal up the air shroud.
- Who has really good info on cannon plugs, where to get them, how to size them, I need a couple, one for the motor, and one for the Data system.


This is the biggest thing of all.

A few months back someone had used CATIA or IDEAS or PRO E to model a 914 suspension along with the rear suspension. It would be worth some information swapping as to what was found and what their intentions were. I would like to change the front suspension on my car next winter, and have some a good idea of what I am going to do, does anyone remember who was doing that?

Thanks,


Erik

[nein14-6]

Sorry, my name is Rob Gordon

I think SCCA needs to see more of these cars run before they can make additional changes. Besides, Steve Limbert finished mid-pack this year at the runoffs in his 914-6

The restrictions are 34mm chokes, stock 914-6 valves (42 and 38mm, I think??), 12:1 cr, single plug, 1mm over bore on 2.0L. That’s about it.

[Brad Roberts]

Thanks Rob,


Just trying to keep track of all the EP/FP/GT2/GT3 guy's around the USA.

5/8 is plenty big enough. I commented about them knowing that you had a Hewland (the Hewlands are harder on the joints than the Porsche box...so I have found..)



B

[nein14-6]

Mark Eschucie makes great headers and builds fast motors, good choice! It looks like everyone is going the way of Burns lately as well

[ChrisFoley]

Foley.. give us the scoop.

What Rob said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Thorshammer]

You guys key so fast I can't even take a crap without missing something.

Brad I use the oberg copy, but have known them to leak especially when the oil is cold and thick.

The restriction for the six is Production trim for the motor Full prep, rods cams any compression ratio, used to be 12:1 but now it is open. 1950 lbs, and 1 inch more track than the FP car 40mm weber type carbs with 34 mm chokes, yes can we say restrictor plate racing

Drawbacks so far, Carbs don't flow as much as the heads do, 36 mm choke produce 4-7 more hp above 6500 rpm it revs to 8750. Safe to 9,000.

On 46mm carbs with 42mm chokes it makes 14 more HP which on the dyno I use is just about 202 hp at the crank. This is of course a dyno, and none of them can be trusted. But I'd say in this trim the car makes 185-188 just how it has been developed so far. I have dynoed other builders 100 hp per liter, and once the carbs are on, the HP is in the shitter.

So what does it need you ask.

46mm carbs 42mm chokes, "S" heads 46mmint 42mm exhaust and "S" brakes with 3.5 inch caliper spacing. This would run with a Miata, but I will only be able to prove this when I run and Limbert runs and other decide they want to run this configuration, Until then, its sucking Miata or Rx7 exhaust.

Erik

[ChrisFoley]

Erik,
can you make minimum weight with your car?

[Thorshammer]

Don't know yet, But I don't see why not, I don't weigh much so thats a plus. LOL

Erik

[Brett W]

Lets get a few cars running before we really try to change things a lot. The RX7 aren't making more than about 210hp (13B) at 2300-2450, The Miatas can't be making much more than 200 (1.8 and 1.6), yes their weight is down a little but that can be over come with good foundation design. Stiff chassis, correct suspension geometry, etc. Not sure what the Z cars are making but they are heavy also. An EP National Championship will be hard but do able if you have the desire to make it happen.

Yes I am running on a set of 2002 rules. I am too cheap to buy the 04 rules and then Have to turn around and buy another set in Feb. I can take that 25$ and get some steel tubing to build a frame jig.

Good luck guys.

[groot]

Eric,

I was the one modelling the front suspension. I incorporated the alterations into my car. But, it's only my work, so no guarantees (unlike on Chris's rear suspension mods (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ). I have discussed the analysis with some of Ford's best suspension engineers and they agree it's the right way to go. And you should see the look on their face when they see what I did........

The toughest part of the fabrication was the struts.

At best these mods will only make the car a little easier to drive by allowing you to use less spring/bar up front to counter roll. This is accomplished by locating the roll center in a better spot and controlling it's movement much better than the stock setup. The simple analysis shows under extreme jounce and roll conditions the roll center on this suspension only moves about in a 3" circle... and all above ground. Compare that to the stock setup, or worse yet, a lowered setup.

Now, with all those caveats... I'll share my analysis, and even post pictures, if you want. I haven't yet to avoid the debates.

I suggest that one prove to themselves what they want to do with their suspension. I did the analysis and judged that the rear suspension mods are not worth the effort based on the amount of toe change and camber gain over the range of motion. But that's my assessment and can easily be argued. And that's why we build are own car's, right? So, we can do what we want to them......

[nein14-6]

Yes please post pictures, you will get no negative feedback from me!

Let’s talk shocks, what brand are you guys using? I have the Cheapo Carrera shocks as they were the only thing I could afford at the time. Local racers here say they are crap, they have been great to me though, I can’t complain about them one bit.

[Brett W]

I am going to be running my suspension points in Susprog 3D as soon as I find a tape measure monkey to help me re-measure the points. Susprog wants to locate from each axel as opposed to the vehicle center point so I have to remeasure.

I will probalby go with Carrera since I have a set for the rear already and they are revalvable. Plus they are pretty local. AS I understand the guys at Carrera know there stuff about shocks. They can help out with you setup.

Come on Kevin show them the front suspension. I bet you get the exact responses you figured you would get. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Kevin and i disagree about the rear suspension mounting points but he has done the analysis and I have not so I can't back up my arguement. YET.

[MJHanna]

Does your local Carrera dealer rebuild? I'm looking at getting my redone. Factory has change ownership and they don't do it any more.

[groot]

I don't have pics here at work. Brett-you can post the one I sent you if you want. It's not the best picture. I may have to take a few more.

But, not tonight, because I've got to stuff a new clutch and re-install the powertrain. I'm hoping to make a double at Nelson Ledges next weekend.

[groot]

Oh, yeah... Koni.

[ChrisFoley]

...judged that the rear suspension mods are not worth the effort based on the amount of toe change and camber gain over the range of motion.

That's what I thought after actually setting up a trailing arm and measuring changes through the range of motion for both arrangements.
Apparently the value of the mod isn't to improve toe or camber characteristics.
There are other subtle changes. For instance, raising the pickup also lowers the shock attachment point, thereby increasing available shock travel. Also, when the trailing arm rotates upward it no longer moves forward at the same time. This influences the way the tire rolls over surface changes on the pavement.
I don't know how significant these effects are, but I am inclined to think they are as valuable some other major suspension mods, especially after having a season of experience with the change. I did lower the car further than it was before.
I am really interested in seeing how you did the front a-arms Kevin, especially regarding the attachment to the chassis. The track width on the FP car doesn't accomodate coilovers, so I have to continue using torsion bars. I would like to raise the attachment points and maybe even increase the length of the a-arms a bit though.

[groot]

I looked into the track change with the rear suspension, too, and concluded it was not significant in my case.

But, you're absolutely right about the rear shocks. Personally, I believe there are serious problems with the rear shocks, unless some important modifications are made.

Specifically, if one retains the rubber bushing at the lower end of the shock it puts a bending load on the shock, which eventually will ruin the shock, but certainly doesn't allow the shock absorber to do it's job.... since it's binding up.

My solution (not yet implemented) is to use some Koni 28s.

[groot]

BTW... I've heard that about the track difference between FP and EP before, but PCS has the 914-4 track as the same in EP and FP. 56.5f/58.2r for both.

The track for the 914-6 is wider in the front and narrower in the rear? Don't know why....

Anyway, the point is, the front track width is easily adjustable. I actually installed camber plates to reduce the camber (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) . It will all make sense with some pictures.