Cleaning and gleaning the nailed threads, What would have me do, if anything? Options

[1970 Neun vierzehn]

I don't know if this is even possible but can we have subtopics off a main topic? I used my mad photoshop skillz to help show what I mean.

I likes that! Best suggestion yet.

Paul

[Pat Garvey]

Great idea Dave. Might as well do that for "the few" too. Subcats. with the owner's name maybe?

"Might as well...."

Look guys/girls, I want to make this more meaningful too. And I will.

But let's just take this a step at a time. I have limited hours available, and it's tax season (yes, I still do that) And I have a day job, so let's stay focused on the primary problem. OK?

Leave the other niggling problems until later.

[Pat Garvey]

OK, I spent some time today going through ols "nailed" posts.

And, I'm afraid!

Where do we draw the line on originality?
1. Is "original" to be strictly as delivered from thje factory?
2. Is the COA the bible?
3. Do dealer installed options constitute originality, regardles of COA?
4. Are period correct additions OK?
5. Is a repaint/restoration-to-original OK?
6. Are retrograde items acceptable(fogs, vinyl, ect)?
7. Are carpet, stereo speaker, non-period correct radios acceptable?
8. Side stripes, in both iterations

If I'm going to do this, it's going to be done ONCE!

Let's address some examples (owners not stated):
Carbs
Non-factory, but add-on items, such as luggage racks, bumper guards, etc
Speakers drilled into door panels
Non-factory exhaust (Bursch, etc)
Wood applique dash components
Conversion to euro spec F/R lenses, as well as shaving the US side marker lights without having a Euro delivery

These, and more, are the problems I'm facing.
If I hold "originaity" to it's definition there won't be more than a half dozen cars that I can spotlight. And there will be some flashback because I've eliminated some cars from the mix (including my own).

Help me out here. How strict do I need to be to satisfy the masses?

I could really piss off some buddies here.

[Jasfsmith]

OK, I spent some time today going through ols "nailed" posts.
Help me out here. How strict do I need to be to satisfy the masses?

I could really piss off some buddies here.

Go ahead. You've pissed me off for not having your car on the raod for so many years anyway. <grin>

A suggestion. Take the most original car of a MY. Then document the non original items, followed up by photos/info of how those specific items should look. Keep the owner's name out of it.

I suggest we tear your car apart first. <GRIN>

[Tom_T]

OK, I spent some time today going through ols "nailed" posts.

And, I'm afraid!

Where do we draw the line on originality?
1. Is "original" to be strictly as delivered from thje factory?
2. Is the COA the bible?
3. Do dealer installed options constitute originality, regardles of COA?
4. Are period correct additions OK?
5. Is a repaint/restoration-to-original OK?
6. Are retrograde items acceptable(fogs, vinyl, ect)?
7. Are carpet, stereo speaker, non-period correct radios acceptable?
8. Side stripes, in both iterations

If I'm going to do this, it's going to be done ONCE!

Let's address some examples (owners not stated):
Carbs
Non-factory, but add-on items, such as luggage racks, bumper guards, etc
Speakers drilled into door panels
Non-factory exhaust (Bursch, etc)
Wood applique dash components
Conversion to euro spec F/R lenses, as well as shaving the US side marker lights without having a Euro delivery

These, and more, are the problems I'm facing.
If I hold "originaity" to it's definition there won't be more than a half dozen cars that I can spotlight. And there will be some flashback because I've eliminated some cars from the mix (including my own).

Help me out here. How strict do I need to be to satisfy the masses?

I could really piss off some buddies here.

Pat -

I think that it's most appropriate to stick with what PCA Concours rules currently state, which is factory original plus any "wear-&-tear replacement" items & "period correct personalization" items (I can look up & cut-n-paste the exact rules from the latest PCA docs. if you want).

That way it is consistent with what IS the standard for PCA Parade (not what somebody thinks PCA's rules should be), and we are giving proper guidance to 914 owners & restorers for competition in such events.

Although, we should also give a disclaimer that other organizations may have stricter rules, and to research their Concours d'Elegance rules for same.

However, I would then go ahead & show the "period correct" source for the "personalization" item(s) (options & accessories), & show the "non-personalized condition" (when possible) for reference - as well as doing what you told me to do when posting the 71 914/4 & clearly list what were the changes (as I tried to do at "The few, the rare..." for that car - wood dash facing as the example).

BTW - I'm not fond of the wood dash faces & turned aluminum threshold plates myself - nor was the OO, but the dealer had it on & offered a "deal" as-is price, and OO was then a starving college student with a set amount of insurance money from his wrecked 57 Chevy (so I understand).

Things like period correct dealer or aftermarket A/C, luggage racks, bumper over-riders bar, Porsche Crests on hoods & shift knobs, center consoles & cushions/storage boxes, radios/speakers & antennas, side stripes, etc. could all be purchased from the dealers & other sources back then, & either installed by the dealers - and so would be allowed by PCA rules, and should therefore be allowed here, although with clearly pointing out the changes.

Heck - even the "holy grail" in O&H's "The few, the rare...." - 2L Steve's Sahara Beige 73 has aftermarket but period correct Coco Mats in it! ...nice touch IMHO! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The COA cannot be the "bible" - cuz as you know they have too many errors, and are mute on certain "included options" - such as the Appearance/Comfort Group & Performance/Sport Group of options being included on most 73 914-2.0s, or on 74 LEs; not to mention egregious errors like misinterpreting the interior color codes (my 73 2L) & optional equipment from Norway on a USA 914 (your 72 /4)! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

A well done resto should be allowed - if properly done - since this is a matter of CdE ""class" as to whether it qualifies as "Preservation" (80% original), vs. the other classes (Full, Street, Wash-n-Shine & equivalents) For example: the 71 914/4 with the 90-95% original paint qualifies under PCA rules for "Preservation Class" - while your more original looking 72 914/4 was resprayed a number of years ago IIRC, so no longer qualifies for preservation, but is considered "restored" under PCA CdE rules. Both are allowed under PCA rules - so a properly done one of either should be allowed IMHO.

I would say that Resto/Mod items are iffy - such as building a Euro Spec 914 from a USA one (lenses, shaved sidemarkers) - unless certain items are NLA (as USA lenses were for awhile), but then you'll have to allow for non-OEM repros of certain items NLA (as I believe PCA Parade does, but may cost points in certain situations). Maybe only if no other good examples of pure original are available, and then back it up with pix of "correct" items from other 914s &/or old 70's Porsche+Audi & VW-Porsche marketing materials, ads, factory photos (your collection of these would make another excellent nailed topic too BTW), etc.

Otherwise, IMHO most "Resto/Mod 914s" are well covered in the Garage forum - and don't need to be covered here - except as perhaps to show how a Euro, French, Italian or other specially fitted 914 would look - in the absence of a better "true" example.

I'm not sure if at Parade they would place a Euro-spec or other racer/etc. "tribute" 914 in the special class, but it probably wouldn't in our Zone 8 ones unless it had major changes - e.g: a /4 converted to a M471 or 914/6GT "tribute car" - or a re-engined /4 with a /6 or big Raby/FAT Perf. racer with fuel cell, rollbars, or even a carb'ed /4, etc. (I'd help place a 914/4 carb'd FAT/Raby 2270c racer & 912 with a FAT 914/4 2.0 both into "special interest" class last year at our PCA OCR concours).

Mufflers & exhaust are another good example of NLA - where SS HEs & non-original OES mufflers are available, although Dansk is now a "factory authorized" & an accepted OEM supplier, but they weren't OEM on the 914s from the factory AFAIK. For example: the reason there is a non-original muffler on the 71 914/4 is that the factory 1.7 mufflers were NLA & Dansk hadn't started reproducing them yet, when it was replaced (although it's been on the OO's to do list since available).

Similarly, I wouldn't discount here if they upgraded from OE Boge shocks/strut inserts - to period correct Bilstein or Koni - since they were available new, could've been a dealer upgrade &/or wear replacement item (for example: I did upgrade my 73 2L to Konis when it came time in 1980, and many others have too with those & Bilsteins).

Likewise, tires are the same thing - 914-2.0s were delivered with certain mfgrs'. 165HR15 Tubeless Tires, but none of those are available today from any of the 1970's OEM suppliers, so you have to choose between non-OEM Vredestein 165HR15 tubeless, OEM Michelin non-correct speed rating XZX 165SR15 tubeless, or non-tubeless XAS 165HR15 Tube-type tires, or non-OEM & unavailable at the period speed rating Bridgestone/Firestone or Kumho 165TR15 tubeless tires, or period correct Michi upgrade 185/70VR15 tubeless (also a factory option on 914-6s & /4s), or the subsequent 1990's factory letter recommendation to dealers for 195/65HR15 tubeless tires - at this point in time.

I don't see non-OEM tires or wheels eliminating a 914 from O&H here, because they wouldn't be by PCA under the personalization & wear allowances/exemptions, but they could be gigged for them &/or lose in a tie-breaker. So those facts need to be pointed out.

When stuff wears out you need to replace it, and PCA recognizes that fact of life, and won't generally penalize someone for it - although it could possibly get used as a tie-breaker.

Speakers in doors - let's really try to avoid those types of hack jobs, although a period correct radio with "modern" speakers installed in the factory housings - so long as they're covered by original or similar factory acoustic foam provided in the housings' grills should be okay - & not with blaring through with shiny "show off" metal or plasti-chrome bits (as in the 71 /4 I posted - I suggested to OO to spray those damn speakers flat black or dark grey & add some acoustic foam back in BTW).

I'm not sure what you meant by: "6. Are retrograde items acceptable(fogs, vinyl, ect)?" - but taking a guess that this meaning folks "upgrading" their 914s to appearance group items (fogs, vinyl, chrome bumpers) or interior color changes, etc., etc. which would be not as originally delivered on a particular 914 ..... well according to Rick Perkins, Regional Service Mgr. for Porsche who had worked in several top SoCal dealerships in 69-76 when our 914s were for sale new, they could & would change anything to customer request, including: full interior swaps (color changes) inside 45 mins., fogs/horns & bumpers changes, wheels, center consoles, on & on....

So I think that these changes would be accepted as "personalization" &/or "as delivered options" that could only come into play at Parade under challenge for a tie or very close finish.

More thorny are gray areas like:
> What do you do if you cannot find your original interior materials anymore - such as my "#31 Beige interior with Basketweave #501/Smooth Leatherette #502" (NOT tan folks) with Dark Tan #503 loop pile carpet - are you better off to get a close as possible match in today's materials, or switch to the more widely available OEM/NOS or repro materials for a "#11 Black" interior? My preference would be the former in the same colors, but why penalize someone for choosing the latter? And I don't know which would be preferred at Parade level for a tie-breaker, but presume resto to a "close to original" color would trump.

> On the other hand, back dating 73-74 or 75-76 bumpers to earlier ones would not be considered original & generally shouldn't be sown in "The few, the rare..."; and technically speaking the filled-in lic. plate holes on the red 71 /4's front bumper is neither original/correct nor legal in CA & many states, but isn't worth disqualifying an otherwise pristine survivor - either on here nor at PCA, although it would probably get gigged, unless/until the were re-drilled/punched.

Perhaps a nailed topic which contains the current PCA Concours rules would be in order - or at least with a link to same, in order to have everyone understand what PCA CdE judges will look at.

Hopefully I've addressed your questions & concerns IMHO 2 cents worth. If not, just fire back a specific question.

I'm curious how others think & feel?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Tom_T]

Also, how about a nailed topic which has the resto & O&H references in it - like this?

SAMPLE:

You can buy this 1st book below with almost all of the auto magazines' 914 articles (all B&W reproductions), or in he earlier version (different cover) - which book is also copyright protected & has the R&T, MT, etc. copyright permission for reprint. That book was about $40 IIRC, less online discounts, etc. (I think I paid around $25-30 in 2010).

Period Auto Publications' articles on & coverage of the 914s:

< The old ed. cover was blue or green & called something like: "Gold Portfolio"

.

Some other good 914 Resto references to have on the ole 914 shelf are:

Restoration & Originality Resources:

< new & old covers
< there were old covers also for these

.

Factory Docs. & Manuals:



< + The Owners, Emissions, Radio, A/C, Dealers, etc. Manuals for your MY/model 914

.

Aftermarket Repair & Maintenance Guides:



.

<END SAMPLE>

. Then others can add additional suggested ones in regular topics, which the MOD could then add to the nailed topic as appropriate.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[Pat Garvey]

Most of the pub's you've mentioned I have not read. Doc Johnson'e book has errors in it, so I would have to point them out.

I don't see how anyone could fault the factory workshop manuals.

Regardless, there are larger "fish to fry" here, and publications will be lower on the list.

[Pat Garvey]

I'm not sure what you meant by: "6. Are retrograde items acceptable(fogs, vinyl, ect)?" - but taking a guess that this meaning folks "upgrading" their 914s to appearance group items (fogs, vinyl, chrome bumpers) or interior color changes, etc., etc. which would be not as originally delivered on a particular 914 ..... well according to Rick Perkins, Regional Service Mgr. for Porsche who had worked in several top SoCal dealerships in 69-76 when our 914s were for sale new, they could & would change anything to customer request, including: full interior swaps (color changes) inside 45 mins., fogs/horns & bumpers changes, wheels, center consoles, on & on....

Yep, they did it everywhere.

I've told this story before, but when I went to pick my new 914 up I noticed that the wheels & tires did not conform to the app grp specs(they were 4.5 inchers, not 5.5). Told the saleman, Frank Bork (amazing what you remember or forget!) that I wouldn't accept delivery. He offerred a set of Fuchs alloys from the brand new 2 liter car just arrived for another $300 (which I couldn't afford),or a Burch exhaust and a wait for the proper wheels & tires. I took the latter, got the Burch exhaust system, which eventually destroyed my rear snowplow, and got the proper wheels/tires 2 months later.

Yep, the dealers & salesmen were swapping anything/everything to make a buck back then. Not so easy these days.

Yeah, this aspect would make an interestinf thread, but not nailed.

Not certain where this idea is going yet, but I know it's going to take a LOT of work and some hurt feelings.

Some nice cars may be eliminted from the threads....my 914 included.

The whole thing will be hard thought. That's why I MUST HAVE more input from others.

Now, one other point. I WILL NOT remake these threads to the tune of PCA rules! I'm a 40 year member of PCA , and totally disagree with their rules for concours, to the point of maybe not renewing.

PCA has become such a ruling beurocracy, and I hate it. Used to be fun, but now it's so much drudgery to prep a car for the Parade. I Chaired the '93 Parade concours and it was still simple. Car clean/prepped? Original/not? Gigged at the judges discretion for both. It was simple, and the locals ran the event. They've ruined it. I may go again, but will never compete.

Ah, rant over. Feel better now.

[1970 Neun vierzehn]

A suggestion. Take the most original car of a MY. Then document the non original items, followed up by photos/info of how those specific items should look. Keep the owner's name out of it.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Short, easy and concise.

As an example.....if the best picture of a 197X door panel shows a radio speaker, keep it, note the variation from OEM, and when a correct image of the aforementioned door panel surfaces, delete the incorrect pic and accompanying disclaimer, and you(we) are just left with only a correct picture of a 197X door panel. No point in keeping incorrect images if a photo showing OEM equipment becomes available at some later time.

Paul

[Tom_T]

A suggestion. Take the most original car of a MY. Then document the non original items, followed up by photos/info of how those specific items should look. Keep the owner's name out of it.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Short, easy and concise.

As an example.....if the best picture of a 197X door panel shows a radio speaker, keep it, note the variation from OEM, and when a correct image of the aforementioned door panel surfaces, delete the incorrect pic and accompanying disclaimer, and you(we) are just left with only a correct picture of a 197X door panel. No point in keeping incorrect images if a photo showing OEM equipment becomes available at some later time.

Paul

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

... good idea, disclaimers + show pic of what the unadulterated item should look like - even if it's just a reprint from that MY's sales brochure.

I plan to do that for the red 71 /4, but haven't had time to find the correct items' pix yet.

BTW - if the owner is posting, then you see his/her screen name anyway, and whatever else they put in their sig & the post itself. Then it's no harm-no foul IMHO.

[Pat Garvey]

I don't know if this is even possible but can we have subtopics off a main topic? I used my mad photoshop skillz to help show what I mean.

Dave,

The consensus is that we like the format you've provided. I've gained the ability to make this work (hopefully!). With your permission, can we use your format for the new nailed threads? It will take a little time becasuse we all have day jobs, but I think you've nailed it.
Pat

[dlkawashima]

Dave,

The consensus is that we like the format you've provided. I've gained the ability to make this work (hopefully!). With your permission, can we use your format for the new nailed threads? It will take a little time becasuse we all have day jobs, but I think you've nailed it.
Pat

Of course, go for it. Look forward to seeing the revised format.

[Pat Garvey]

Dave,

The consensus is that we like the format you've provided. I've gained the ability to make this work (hopefully!). With your permission, can we use your format for the new nailed threads? It will take a little time becasuse we all have day jobs, but I think you've nailed it.
Pat

Of course, go for it. Look forward to seeing the revised format.

Thanks! Should be forethcoming, with additions.

[Pat Garvey]

UPDATE!

First, subtopics are out! Don't know the spcifics of this nut suppose that they are hogs and unmanageable.

However, I've been working with McMark (Admin), who has provided a pretty workable substitute (I think). Mark has alo provided a "plyaground" where I can test formats offline and bring them into the O&H forum when ready.

Snippets from the original nailed threads will be utilized, but expansion of content will occur. It's not going to be an easy task, and slow, but we'll get it done.

The nailed threads will be just that - nailed. In fact, they'll be locked. Comments and suggestions will be considered, and maybe incorporated, but they'll need to be made outside of those threads. Since I am n expert on all models of 914's, I will probably need input as to the validity of some requests.

Posts made available to the individual closed threads will be judged as to relevancy by all posters. They may or mat not be included. This will not be a wiki, and it will be my final attempt at pleasing and informing all (good luck to me with that).

It's in the works. It isn't going to happen overnight. Your input is not only appreciated, but requested.

Pray for me!
Pat