Tuning EMS, Fuel and Ignition Options

[McMark]

I'm installing the beta KitCarlson FI and I'm turning my attention to tuning. I have access to a wide band O2 sensor setup for tuning in the FI part of the setup, but I'm not exactly sure how to optimize the ignition. My initial assumption is to install an EGT gauge. I would think this coupled with knowing the AFR would clue me into the ignition. There are so many factors I can modify that I'm having trouble keeping it all straight. Help me figure out what I need to do to get it well tuned. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

[Jake Raby]

Mark,
The LM1 is awesome for this..

Also I would recommend a EGT gauge as well to find the best tuning much fatser. with AFR and EGT you can dial in much faster than with CHT.

With Dave's system don't be afriad to run near 14;1. I have 14:1 in the 912 and the heads run cooler than the engine did with the same advance curve and total timing and carbs did at 12.5:1

My head temps dropped from 325 all the time to 275 all the time and just 300 in fifth crossing a 7% grade! Withcarbs the same 7% grade peaked head temps at 375!!!

4,400 miles on my test system and absolutely NO issues yet!

[Mueller]

Jake, speaking of advance curves....got one for stock motors to share with us??

Is the factory advance curve decent? (it's in the factory workshop manual)

[lapuwali]

I would start with a curve taken from the Mallory dizzy (look on the Mr. Gasket site, it can be found there) with grey/grey springs installed. From there, adjusting the curve is trial and error, based on what you're trying to optimize FOR. If looking for mean best torque, you'll need a dyno. If looking for BSFC, you'll need a flowmeter and a dyno, or lots of time.

Me, I'm happy if the bloody thing runs w/o pinging. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I know EGT goes up as the ignition is retarded from "optimal", but I don't know what it does when advanced from "optimal". Perhaps the lowest EGT w/o pinging?

On the kit itself, how far is it from production quality, in your opinion? Better or worse than SDS? IMHO, Kit should include at least one person who's mechanically inclined, but has never fitted aftermarket EFI to an engine before, as a test. Leave them alone to figure it out for themselves, and only answer questions asked. That can tell you a lot about what needs to be included in the instructions.

[McMark]

Am I going to find a lot of tuning is necessary for the ignition? Or will it be close to stock and won't take much fidgeting?

[McMark]

On the kit itself, how far is it from production quality, in your opinion? Better or worse than SDS? IMHO, Kit should include at least one person who's mechanically inclined, but has never fitted aftermarket EFI to an engine before, as a test. Leave them alone to figure it out for themselves, and only answer questions asked. That can tell you a lot about what needs to be included in the instructions.

From what I've seen the kit is 95% production quality. I've modified the wiring harness so that it mimics the stock harness and hopefully that will be an option from Jeff B. to make the install much faster. I know Jake and Dave are doing a bit more tuning/testing of extreme and oddball situations. I'm the odd man tester. I know what's going on with the stock FI and I understand the theories of the KC EMS, but I've never installed aftermarket FI before. In the production version it should be pretty easy. The wiring harness will fall into place and the tuning will be available to stock engines. So it should be pretty plug and play. Super cool! I'm so ready for FI that works well.

[JeffBowlsby]

Thanks for the update Mark, I hope the install/tuning goes well...it should.

I am ready when you are to fab these KC EMS harnesses, just let me know.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[McMark]

I want to make sure it fits in and everything runs right before I send it off. I was going to tune it first, but maybe I'll just make sure it fires off and drives halfway decent. Then do the tuning after the harness work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[Mueller]

thanks for the info James on the curves.....oh yea, meet our new "partner" Mark, in the LM-1 owners group.......I hope you don't mind.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Kit should include at least one person who's mechanically inclined, but has never fitted aftermarket EFI to an engine before, as a test. Leave them alone to figure it out for themselves, and only answer questions asked. That can tell you a lot about what needs to be included in the instructions.

on a side note, there is some a-hole on the Megasquirt forum b!!@#ing about the MS and how if he had the money he'd buy an AEMs FI instead 'cause he cannot figure out the MS (he's half expecting people to figure "everything" out for him, the idiot must not have read any of the manual to get even half a clue how the thing works).....I'm giving up on the VR sensor in the distributor, I screwed up a brand new $30 VR sensor (second one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) ) and I cannot afford doing the RD on this anymore (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

I will pursue the optical 72-2 wheel, but it'll be one of those round-tuit projects (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'm dropping the motor this weekend to install the crankfire wheel and trigger....wish me luck in not breaking anything, LOL

[Mark Henry]

Mark, just make a steady progresion from around 10 degrees @ 1000rpm to 28 degrees at 2800 or 3000rpm. That will get you in the ballpark and you can play with it later.

[Jake Raby]

Mueller,
The stock advance curve is wasted as soon as the first change is made to the combo. My curve goes up, up, up and then I pull timing away in the upper RPM due to piston speed increases. Dizzy's won't allow that and it really improves power above 5,000 RPM.

Most ofmy engines will be receiving this system as soon as its released. I have 7 of them awating it as we speak. I plan on uploading a page to my site that will have EVERY setting that we use on the dyno along with engine size and a list of the RAT partys used to comprise it. Literally peopkle could keep trying our settings till they find one that is close and then work from it.

The systems that I sell will come pre loaded with a "close" arrangement of setings so the customer can install it easierand tune it as well.

I am well known for scrutenizing things.... Not even i have any issues with this system and thats something that I can't say about many other parts/systems that I try for just a few times.

I know dave and have seen him at my shop working on his piece of electronic magic. The guy is literally a "Brain surgeon' and is remarkable with that soldering iron and laptop. His attention to simplicity, and function is the ONLY reason that I chose to do all this test work and implement the system on my engines.
remember- I'm a die hard carb guy- This system finally showed me what is capable. I literally hate stock FI BUT my 912E is firing stock injectors, and looks like a stock system. This system made me hate the stock system even more!

I have talked to dave about a comprehensive install/tuning VIDEO to include with the system, just like my cooling systems. I have done several videos and can make it happen easily. Hell, since i included the videos with my DTMS I have only had ONE customer call me with any questions. Keep in mind that we have sold 90 of these systems this year- thats pretty damn good for a conversion piece!

[Mueller]

I think Daves system is going to be a god-send for a lot of people, heck, even for myself, I'd be tempted to buy one right now if it was 100% ready to go..for some odd reason, my latest MS install is kicking my @ss and I'm damn near ready to give up.........not too sure what I'm doing different than when I had it running 2 years ago (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[lapuwali]

Mark (markd), I was thinking you where the one with the SDS system in his car, but now I think it was a different Mark. Hence my comment on having a non-EFI guy try it out, and the comparison to SDS.

Mueller, sorry to hear the MS stuff is giving you such a hard time. I was considering just trudging forward with just a distributor and get FI working. My offer of a D-Jet distributor still stands if you want to try that route. Another option would be to borrow an MSD or similar box to isolate the MS, and see if that helps your tach problem. I'm using a Unilite, so I'm not likely to have any problem there (I hope).

[Mueller]

James....can I pick up the dizzy tommorow? I might be willing to give it one more try before dropping the engine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

I'm wondering if there is some other issue I am having since my last 2.0 motor ran fine with it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

[Mark Henry]

Mark (markd), I was thinking you where the one with the SDS system in his car, but now I think it was a different Mark. Hence my comment on having a non-EFI guy try it out, and the comparison to SDS.

Yep, I'm the Mark with the SDS system.

[lapuwali]

Mike, sure thing. You've got my number. I'll be unavailable from 2:30 to 5-ish, but in the morning, I'll be in Mtn View. Give me a ring.

[DNHunt]

Markd

I'm gonna be facing this in a month or so. I assume your ignition tuning screen is a grid with MAP vs RPM. Megasquirt is set up with a 12 X 12 grid.

Ignition timing gets a little fuzzy for me because the whole thing is counterintuitative. You probably are more comfortable with it than I am but this is the way I understand it. A vacuum advance unit actually returns the timing to the mechanical curve. Under light load there is a need for more advance because there is less fuel and air and it therefore burns slower. The area below the intial curve is lighter load and should require more advance. Above the curve will be where the engine is under increased load with more fuel and air in the cylinders and faster flame propagation. There should be some retarding of timing. But, this is the area I worry about. I think this is where tuning really comes in.


This is what I'm planning. I'll use the Unilite curve with the grey, grey springs off the Mr Gasket page to establish an initial curve. I'll use 12 degrees at idle with 28 degrees max then pull 4 degrees out by 5000. I think this will be pretty close. I'll advance the timing a little below the curve. Above the curve I'll start with the same figure as the curve for each column (RPM) then very slowly pull a little timing out and watch the temperatures and see how it feels. EGT responds quicker than CHT so I'm gonna install an EGT gauge for tuning and a knock sensor would be nice. When I think it's close I'll take it to a chassis dyno. I THINK THE DYNO IS A MUST.

Hope it goes well for you. Please keep us informed how the tuning goes.

Dave

[Jake Raby]

Dave,
Your timing looks spot on to me! I can give you some curves that will be very close. The cam I set you up with should make the tuning much easier than some.

What plenum are you using???

[TimT]

I THINK THE DYNO IS A MUST.

kind of, seat of pants is a close second.

regular dynojet dynos arent really helpful tuning tools, you need to find a dyno that can hold load againt the wheels.

Bring the car to a given RPM, adjust the fuel, dial some load into the dyno and advance the timing until the power drops off, then retard the timing a few degrees back to be in power, and give some room so you dont worry about knock. With a good nock sensor you just dial the timing to max power, and hope the knock sensor works as well as it supposed to.

You can repeat this process at every cell. Or establish tuning in a few cells, then look for trends in the graphs and adjust the other cells to suit.

We spent hours tuning my friends 935 clone on the dyno, yet we still make adjustments at nearly every track event.

[DNHunt]

Jake

I'm starting with the stock plenum. The only changes on the intake side are the throttle body is enlarged to 50 mm and I cut the snout off of the airbox and ran a 3" flex tube to the area above the relay board as a cool air intake. I'll look at manifold pressure and swap some things around later if it looks like I need to change things.

Tim

It's hard to resist changing things as conditions change especially when its so easy to punch a couple of keys and its done. The dyno I used before we used steady load and varied the RPM. After 2 months of seat of the pants tuning a little more than a hour cleaned up the AFR and I gained 1 and a half HP.

Dave