914-6 vs. 914-4...Your opinion Options

[Jake Raby]

I guess that most of you guys that have never experienced a truely refined TIV engine with a correct combination- Thats the issue....

Yes, I have driven some really crappy 4 cylinders myself, and taken apart thousands..

Please don't compare something that takes me 80 hours to configure, machine, assemble and dyno to something cranked out of a lesser facility.

I am very familiar with the sound of a six, but at the same time I can' tell much difference from one of those from my MassIVe 2270 or 2316 in the sound dept... especially with a Tangerine Super Header...

The other nice thing about a -4 is that even in the highest state of tune any backyard VW mechanic can work on it! No need to pay someone 80 bucks an hour because its a "Porsche".....

I wonder if any of those six experts have ever been able to build one of their babies while blindfolded in front of 500 people???? I did and thats just how simple the TIV is. Simplicity is a must!

[SGB]

I love that type IV sound! With the valves set right, carbs spot on, my car does NOT sound like a VW. There is valve noise. "tttttttttttttttt" nice and even like dumming fingers on snare drum, and a whirrr from the cooling fan not unlike a you know what. If I really get on it, there is a dB concern. Really, to me it sounds like a Porsche shoould sound, it is just all occuring on a four-beat instead of six-beat.

[IronHillRestorations]

I do remember someone said, "no one converts from a SIX to a FOUR". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

KT

That was me!

I know Jake build some great fours, but I also know they aren't cheap either. Sure you don't have the ancillaries to purchase, but (without actually knowing the cost) I'm betting that a big bad RAT TIV will run in excess of $5k, someone correct me if I'm wrong here.

I have never done a six conversion, or know ANYONE that's done a six conversion that has ever said "gee I should've just built or bought a big bad four" NEVER EVER!

All that said, for most 914'ers a six is the next logical step up the food chain. Porsche car, bigger badder Porsche engine.

The first time I took my old blue car to a PCA get together in Memphis, guys were practically tripping over a new 996 to check out the engine compartment, and the overall car. With all due respects, I doubt if the reaction would have been the same with a big bad four. Granted it's not just how it looks, but how it goes too.

That same car has so much low end grunt it could be started from a dead stop in 3rd gear (which would also pull up to 75mph), I've never driven a big four with that kind of low end torque or high end scream.

It's all about what you want to do with your car.

[morgan_harwell]

>>I understand all 914-6's will be different-but i would like to know about yours. Let me know your thoughts!

Brief story of why the 914/4 I bought is now a 914/6:

It was originally a 2.0L/4/webers when I bought it in 1986. Stupid me! I soon learned carbs are smog illegal on a 4cyl (still are! just don't have to test every other year). Within a year I realized I bought the biggest Lemon in California! Not smog legal, junk transmission, cheap paint, missing parts, ... I believe in PPI now. I also learned that 1st year there was such a thing as the 914/6.

The carb noise didn't bother me much, but not passing smog was a big problem. The fuel mileage wasn't that great either, compared with it's 6cyl replacement. The 2.0L/4 was real strange performance wise, some days it just SCREAMED, other days it couldn't get out of it's own way (barometric pressure?). Then I priced out how much it would cost to make the 4-banger smog legal. WOW! Change pistons, cam, find good FI system, fuel pump, etc., AIRC around $3500 in 1987. Comparable to a DIY /6 conversion.

If I hadn't done the six conversion, I wouldn't be driving a 914 today. Because of its uniqueness & great handling I went ahead with the /6 conversion.

I found a $2500 2.4L/CIS 6 with 90K miles on it. In 1987 it cost an extra $4187-$1250(4cly stuff sold) to swap the engines. The 2.4L/6 is still in the car today. It is my every-dry-day driver. I'm am genuinely astonished at how durable & reliable the 6cyl has been! The motor now has around 275,000 miles on it. Each time it has been smog checked, it passed easily. The valve guides are now showing signs they're tired, but the engine still pulls very hard. Hard enough to spin the clutch loose at 5k RPM (needs a clutch job). I think the carbed TIV engine would have required 2 rebuilds by now.

Since my 914 is my every-dry-day driver, i.e. I put ALOT of miles on it, pollution control is a high priority. I remember visiting 1960s LosAngeles as a kid where within a day my eyes would be burning & I couldn't see the San Gabriel Mtns.. Anyway, I'm thinking of replacing the 2.4L/CIS-6 with a 3.2L/DME-6 engine rather than rebuilding the 2.4L when the time comes. For about the cost of rebuilding the 2.4L I can source a stock 3.2L and gain 70hp, better gas mileage and more modern smog emission numbers thanks to it's computer controlled closed loop engine management system.

Moral of this story: get a PPI !

-Moe-

[cdn914]

I have owned a stock 914-6 for about 16 years, currently own another (project), and have owned about 10 914-4s, 1.7s and 2.0s - over the years. The 2.0 fours are great fun to drive and have wonderful motors, even in stock form. The 1.7s are always fun at speed but getting up to speed can at times be frustrating. The factory sixes have a character all their own. They certainly sound different (read wonderful) , and the engine sound alone still excites me each time I take it out for a run. In many ways, it is a simpler 914 than the 914-4s and the unique 914-6 parts on the car just add to its unique character. I consider the 914-6 to be a more attractive 911 Targa with the engine in its proper place, a properly fitting roof and better rigidity than its 911 Targa counterpart. Many modified 914-4s will outrun the factory 2.0 six but the exclusiveness and unique character of the six will always cause it to remain at the head of the marque. I like to consider the 914-6 to be the 914 model's revenge on the 911 as the 911 of the time period will always have to look over its shoulder for its "poor" sibling which can leave the 911 floudering in a spin around a curve. For this reason the 914-6 will always command a healthy respect in the Porsche clan, something the 914-4s still have to work harder to achieve. Most 911 owners now know better than to frown on the 914s, especially since the 914 continues to win the autocross at the Porsche Parades every year, but for those who need reminding of the stature of the 914, the 914-6, and its ultimate form - the 916 (914-6S?) - will continue to serve as reminders to them of which model had the better design right from the start. (IMG:http://www.rgrautoparts.com/cdn9146/canadaside.jpg)

[Root_Werks]

One thing I really like about the 914Club is that so many 914 owners with so many flavors of 914's still come together. Yeah, this is better than TV for sure! But I don't watch TV, so what would I know? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

All in all, drive what you want. If you have a $2500 914 and have only $2500, I could easily convert it to a 6 for someone or myself. If you don't have the resources of Root behind you, then probably best to talk to Jake to build you something strong and reliable. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I like the 4's, but the 6's have a mechanical sound unmatched by most other engines on the road. I like that.

As for carbs and such (Brett was asking about that), I buy all my engines as complete runners. Usually from 911 owners who are upgrading to bigger engines. Most of the time, they just want to get rid of what they are pulling out. A 2.2T is good for nothing more than a door stop to someone who is putting in a fresh 2.7 or 3.0 or whatever.

This is a cool forum and I enjoyed reading everyones thougts. Thanks for all the input! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

[Jake Raby]

I still want to know what is so different about the sound from a Big Four??

Nop one has been able to explain exactly what the differences are in straight terms.

When I drove a six it didn't sound very different at all from one of my 2270 4 bangers...(my hearing isn't the worlds best from too many days around the dyno and too many turbine engines singing in my ears) Then again I have only driven one other 914 that didn't have one of my engines installed and it had stock FI, so of course it didn't "Sound good"

So tell me, whats the sound? Cooling fan? Carbs? exhaust note??

[Randal]

It's like have me in the the passenger seat full time.
Again, no biggie.

Man, we're going to have to pass this one to "factcheck.org"

[Root_Werks]

I still want to know what is so different about the sound from a Big Four??

Nop one has been able to explain exactly what the differences are in straight terms.

When I drove a six it didn't sound very different at all from one of my 2270 4 bangers...(my hearing isn't the worlds best from too many days around the dyno and too many turbine engines singing in my ears) Then again I have only driven one other 914 that didn't have one of my engines installed and it had stock FI, so of course it didn't "Sound good"

So tell me, whats the sound? Cooling fan? Carbs? exhaust note??

Jake,

The main difference is the layout and firing order of a 6vs4. You may not notice any or much difference with less muffling. But if you take a stock air cleanered/muffled 6 power plant, you can hear the mechanical whir of the chains, the suttle firing of the 6 cyl's each cycle and so forth.

If you put a stinger on a type 4, 356/912 or 911 engine, they don't sound much different. Esecially opened up. I think it is the quieter/driveable ones you notice the most difference on.

My 914-6 now is quiet. No carb noise or anything. I like that. it is super easy to drive, even on longer trips. When you step out after driving for 2-3 hours, your ears are not ringing.

I think that is the difference in sound. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

I think anyway? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Jake Raby]

I can see where firing order would change the note, but not by a huge amount..

[Rusty]

So what's so expensive about them????? I did a whole thread were I put together a 914-6 for like the 5th or 6th time for about $6k, new windshield, price of car, flares, paint, 7&8x16 fuchs, oil tank, new targa seals etc. etc. etc. Yeah, this one only has a 130hp 2.2, but it is still 130 STOCK hp. Give me a wasted spark ign and 32mm vent's and I would bet 140-145hp.

The engines I find are just ones by chance. I don't look for anything specail. The last one I had was, wait, the one before that was a 2.2E, wait, so was the one before that as well. So 160hp STOCK. I haven't ever paid over $1k for a 911 engine. All have been great runners with the worst worn vavle guides maybe puffing off a little smoke on a cold start up.

So C'mon you two. Lets here it, how much do you have to spend to get 130hp out of a type 4 engine or better, 160. I paid $600 for my 2.2T engine, 130hp and $800, $1000 for the last two 2.2E engines at 160hp.

Prove me the idiot here, make me believe you can pull down a 4cyl and make it put out 130 for under $1k.

Or, make me believe you can put a 5.7 in a 914 for less than a $600 911 engine that you only have to drill a few small holes into fo the oil tank. Straight bolt up stuff.

C'mon, I double dare ya! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) :finger2: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

What's so expensive, Dan... is doing the conversion right.

Anyone can cobble shit together. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

-Rusty

[J P Stein]

Sounds? We got sounds. On the inside, it sounds like the hounds of hell are loose back there.....not particularily pleasent (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

http://www.moronthrottle.com/videos/Ulf-Ch...uck-Driving.mov

Dunno how we got off on this tangent. Sound is over rated.
Power & handling ring my bell.

[Root_Werks]

So what's so expensive about them?????  I did a whole thread were I put together a 914-6 for like the 5th or 6th time for about $6k, new windshield, price of car, flares, paint, 7&8x16 fuchs, oil tank, new targa seals etc. etc. etc.  Yeah, this one only has a 130hp 2.2, but it is still 130 STOCK hp.  Give me a wasted spark ign and 32mm vent's and I would bet 140-145hp.

The engines I find are just ones by chance.  I don't look for anything specail.  The last one I had was, wait, the one before that was a 2.2E, wait, so was the one before that as well.  So 160hp STOCK.  I haven't ever paid over $1k for a 911 engine.  All have been great runners with the worst worn vavle guides maybe puffing off a little smoke on a cold start up.

So C'mon you two.  Lets here it, how much do you have to spend to get 130hp out of a type 4 engine or better, 160.  I paid $600 for my 2.2T engine, 130hp and $800, $1000 for the last two 2.2E engines at 160hp.

Prove me the idiot here, make me believe you can pull down a 4cyl and make it put out 130 for under $1k.

Or, make me believe you can put a 5.7 in a 914 for less than a $600 911 engine that you only have to drill a few small holes into fo the oil tank.  Straight bolt up stuff.

C'mon, I double dare ya!   (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)  :finger2:  :D

What's so expensive, Dan... is doing the conversion right.

Anyone can cobble shit together. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

-Rusty

:finger2: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/alfred.gif)

Just because some people go spend $300 on a throttole linkage or $450 on a tin set or $250 on oil lines doesn't mean I have to. So (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pissoff.gif) and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/finger.gif) for implying I cobble anyting together. But cudo's for speaking your mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) My stuff is backyard, hand made, but by now on a few conversions and doing just fine.

So kiss my (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif) and while your at, so shop at AA, I hear they have some great deals on 914-6 conversion parts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

The above statements were in no way inteaded to be offensive. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Bleyseng]

Rusty, its seems Roots biggest savings in the motor cost ie: $1000 2.2 vs a $4500 3.2.

$4500 3.2
+4500 in conversion parts
$9000 Total in parts
$1000 labor
$10,000 total cost based on Brad R's rule of thumb conversion guide
Rootwerks costing
$1000 2.2 motor
$4500 conversion parts
$5500 in parts
$0 labor by himself
$5500 total cost
I don't get to excited by a 130hp six myself but a 3.2 250hp six is another story. I know where to pick up a $500 2.4 with carbs but I can't justify the rest of the money for that motor.


Geoff

[Rusty]

Just because some people go spend $300 on a throttole linkage or $450 on a tin set or $250 on oil lines doesn't mean I have to. So (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pissoff.gif) and (IMG:style_emoticons/default/finger.gif) for implying I cobble anyting together. But cudo's for speaking your mind. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) My stuff is backyard, hand made, but by now on a few conversions and doing just fine.

So kiss my (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif) and while your at, so shop at AA, I hear they have some great deals on 914-6 conversion parts. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

The above statements were in no way inteaded to be offensive. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I disagree, but I'll leave personal slights aside.

Well, I've held repro engine tin in my hands... and I've seen pictures of yours. Backyard, snipped and bent on a workbench... "cobbled" is the word that came to mind then, but I bit my tongue. Since you've put your comments out in public, I'm going to call you on them.

Just because something works, doesn't make it the best way to do something. I could paint my car with rattle cans from Napa, but that doesn't make the job "done right".

I've done custom oil cooler lines, and benefited from a beautiful (and inexpensive) replacement linkage piece from Rich Johnson. There are ways to do things in the backyard... and still have a professional job.

-Rusty

P.S. Hmmm... shop at AA? I've seen the metalwork on their flares. Looked fine to me... far more professional than some engine tin I saw posted recently. I got a set of their concours vacuum lines... no problems at all. Every vendor has good news and horror stories.

[Aaron Cox]

this looks personal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

ouch.

[Root_Werks]

Rusty, its seems Roots biggest savings in the motor cost ie: $1000 2.2 vs a $4500 3.2.

$4500 3.2
+4500 in conversion parts
$9000 Total in parts
$1000 labor
$10,000 total cost based on Brad R's rule of thumb conversion guide
Rootwerks costing
$1000 2.2 motor
$4500 conversion parts
$5500 in parts
$0 labor by himself
$5500 total cost
I don't get to excited by a 130hp six myself but a 3.2 250hp six is another story. I know where to pick up a $500 2.4 with carbs but I can't justify the rest of the money for that motor.


Geoff

Okay, I will disclose my deals on my latest 914-6 conversion:

$2000 - car 73 1.7
$ 600 - 2.2T engine complete running less heater boxes
$1000 - paint, flares, rockers all glass
$ 400 - V oil tank
$ 300 - 914-6 headers
$ 20 - tin set (me make)
$ 10 - bell crank (me make)
$ 40 - Oil lines, Industrial supply shop made those.
$ 210 - Windshield
$ 150 - Targa seal (front - good new one from GPR)
$ 40 - Sammy seal
$ 80 - carb tune up kits
$ 250 - 7&8x16" fuchs with tires
$ 400 - glass bumpers
$ 50 - 911T front suspension
$ 0 - labor
$ 0 - drill out rear hubs
$ 65 - New strut inserts (front only, rears were fine)
$ 10 - valve adjustment
$ 1 - air freshiner

Ooooooh, lets see, what else did I buy for this thing.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

I think that is it unless you want me to add my gas money in there as well? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Root_Werks]

P.S. Hmmm... shop at AA? I've seen the metalwork on their flares. Looked fine to me... far more professional than some engine tin I saw posted recently.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) Ouch! Can't argue with that one! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) You forgot the foot print and hammer marks. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif)

AA isn't all bad, I got my oil tank from them. Although the sales person swore it was a factory tank. I was going to buy 10 of them, but thought something smelled fishy. When the V tank arrived I didn't even bother to call them back. Just typical AA in my dealings with them. They do have some good stuff, but like a true used car dealer, will say anything to get you to by from them.

[Root_Werks]

this looks personal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

ouch.

Nah, I can take it. My 914-6's are drivers. You put the key in, start it and drive it. Some of the undercar detial will not be as clean or nice as others, but my cars are not garage queens.

Rusty is cool to say whatever he wants. My ex wife says I don't have feelings anyway. Something along those lines. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer.gif)

[Joshporsche]

Thanks for all your input!! Thinking back, my 2.0 was pretty fast, I got going 134 in Provo Canyon and that was fast. With all this said, I would love to feel a 914-6. Anyone in Utah want to give me a ride in your 6? Just thought i'd ask. Since joining this club i've never obsessed about something so much in my life.