Running Hot on the Highway Options

[TheCabinetmaker]

He's our thread locker. Whenever an informative thread comes along he makes a few post and BAM. The thread is locked. Now this one is gonna locked pretty soon too.

[mrholland2]

Here's my question now: Of the total "oil product", what percentage should be Zinc alkyl dithiophosphate? The Brad Penn oils have a max of 0.1 to 1.1 % according to the MSDS. Castrol GTX has 5-10% according to the MSDS.

I bought a supplement, but haven't put it in yet because I need to drain some oil out first and don't have the facility at home.

This all has made me very curious and a teeny bit confused

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[wingnut86]

Wow.

Talk about going "Ape-Shit"

Also, work on your diction and don't be so BOLD.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif)

[mrholland2]

*sighs* best thing to do with that type is ignore. They only participate when they get attention.

[ape914]

Ape who are you? What are your credentials? All you do is come in, talk shit, and try to disprove others. Wtf? You have an answer for everything but it seems all your posts are just an attempt at contradiction. It gets old and nobody seems to like you. I am certainly no 914 God but PCNA respects my opinion and takes it without question. Can you please try to explain your obviously superior background to the rest of us so we can try to filter out the bullshit from others?

Your friend Jon.

Dear friend jon. i never tried to disprove anybody. i simply suggested trying a richer mixture, some one later said it was a misconception to run richer and two other folk added with no technical content, that they agreed with the person who said he prefered lean mixtures. Instead of getting into the tech details, we were told to listen to the person advocating lean mixtures for the simple reason that he cares about these engines and he has some neat gauges and built a cooling fan, and his Dad is a pilot.

I never even once tried to disprove that the person advocating lean running is wrong. In fact it is clear from his data we both are right, rich or lean running can cause cool running, and I admitted that pretty clearly.

posts that in effect say to believe one set of data over another becuase it is assumed his gauges are better, or he cares more about engine cooling or his dad is a pilot have nothing to do with the technical issue and such comments are just noise that deflect the real issue of why this guys motor is running hot.

the orignal posters hot running issues probably have nothing to do with zinc in the oil but may have a to do with mixture along with other things.

for me richer made cooler running, but the original poster will need to try it to be sure, he may even try to go real lean, and see if that helps his motor stay cooler.

Never did i try to disprove racers chris's concept of lean burn, not once. What i did not like was the implication by two that I was wrong becuase I dont have good gauges, or dont care about cooling issues, both assumptions are false and needed correction.


So it turns out both me and Chris are correct dispite differances, we both have resonable gauges and experimental techniques, and both care about cooling issues.

[ape914]

...
Your Dad and my Dad have a lot in common, maybe yours can take my Dad flying sometime.

Oh this is so warm and fuzzy, feels like family.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grouphug.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
Just stop by my shop sometime with your Dad.
If my dad's not travelling, there's a good chance he'll be nearby.
He loves to show off his Ryan STA restoration project in the corner of my shop, and his Bonanza is hangared only 15 minutes away.

If you don't live anywhere near Hartford, don't let that stop you.
Elliot Cannon was here from CA, and Mary Shortridge flew in from Kansas with her father and uncle for a visit.

BTW, I'm nowhere near 100 years old. My dad is only 83. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)


What did one firecracker say to the other?
.
.
.
My pop's bigger than your pop!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blowup.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

But seriously,
If one has adequate instrumentation and knows what to shoot for, lean cruising with carbs or FI is an excellent choice for cool temps combined with great fuel mileage.
Here's a little light reading on the subject: Mixture Management and Cylinder Head Temperatures

Chris:
To get the lean burn 16:1 to work do you have to alter the spark advance to work with it in anyway? and do you run a higher comprssion to compensate for the operation at less than peak power? I know these are some of the tricks to lean burn, just wonder what it takes to get it to work on a 914 motor with D-jet?

[tradisrad]

How can we get both power and lean burn out of our 914s along with cool temps. My 914 seems to run great, plenty of power, low head temps and low oils temps at a 12-13.5 to 1 AFR.

From everything I have read on this site, until today, I came to an understanding that I want my 914 to be rich. Bleyseng says to set the MPS on the rich side, the factory set the MPS on the rich side. I am confused.

I also have a '92 civic vx that goes into lean burn, and while I dont monitor temps I do know that when it is in "lean burn" I have no power, but great mileage. I do monitor the voltage output of the wide band O2 sensor the higher the output voltage the leaner it is running. This is all controlled by the ECU. For this car to have any power it need to be running rich and the v-tech needs to kick in at 3k rpm.

Link to suggesting a rich mixture

[Dave_Darling]

If my understanding is correct, peak EGTs would be slightly lean of stoichiometric. Continue leaning the mixture, and EGTs start to go down again. Lower EGTs can also be found to the rich side of stoich.

Running somewhat lean at cruise, under very low load conditions, is generally not harmful to anything as long as the temps are within bounds. It only takes ~10 HP to keep a car running at speed on a level freeway, so not having much power is a non-issue.

The "lean-burn" Hondas run very lean mixtures during cruise. Some of them take control over the throttle valve directly, opening it up much more but then leaning the mixture out to where there is just enough power to maintain speed. These systems require relatively sophisticated controls (including a wide-band O2 sensor that is directly read by the car's engine management system) and a degree of fuel mixture control that is way beyond the 1960s analog computing tech in our cars. They may also require some fairly sophisticated cooling system design to make sure temperatures stay under control--but I'm much less sure on that.

So comparing Honda's lean-burn tech to the notion of running leaner than peak EGT is pretty much apples to oranges.

With the weird old control systems in our cars, I prefer to try to keep the mixture a little rich. Because it can relatively easily be richer or leaner than what you're trying for under certain circumstances, and having it go near peak EGT mixture (for a long while) can ruin your whole month.

--DD

[tradisrad]

Dave, You are right about comparing the Honda to the VW engine; they are two different fruits. Some Hondas are designed to run lean utilizing the v-tech technology and the wide-band O2. But as far as I know, which may not be much, the VW engine is not designed to run lean.

My main confusion with this thread is that now I am reading that it is ok to run lean to reduce oil temps when every other thread tells us to run our 914s on the rich side to reduce oil and head temps. With out the proper monitoring equipment an arbitrary lean mixture is just asking for trouble.

Is it possible for the OP to set his carbs to run lean while cruising on the freeway and rich in other driving conditions so he has power? Or does he need to drop hundreds of dollars into monitoring equipment to achieve this? From the OP he is monitoring his oil temp with a dip-stick temp gauge. Not very high tech no expensive.

Many guys have added a second oil cooler to help reduce oil temps. Some have even gone as far as changing the entire air cooling system (to the horizontal fan set up) to reduce temps.

[ape914]

from what i know about lean burning and aero engine is that Charles Lindberg (First man to solo fly Atlantic Ocean) taught the lean burn technique to the US military in WWII in P-38 fighters,. He extended their range in the Pacific fighting. (Lindberg actually shot down some jap planes, although he was officaily banned from combat, (the President determined it would be bad Press if a hero such as Lindberg was lost in combat or worse, captured). Lindberg often made excuses to go on "test runs" with the rest of the planes into combat. He got into the thick of it several times. Lindberg got a lot more milage out of the engine by going leaner than the crews thought they could. however that was a big fat water cooled inline motor, super charged, running 120-140 Octane.

Lean burn to run right needs to have other modification to be done, timing is often advanced, as the lean mixture has a slower flame front speed. High compressions can also be used to compensate for the loss of power lean burn gives.

makes me think .....If one would wire in two MPS one for rich sporty driving, one for lean cruising, and one could take advantage of some adjustable spark advance, one could maybe make a "sport/ecomony" switch on the dash.

Still interested in hearing how racer chris gets his lean burn to run best?



I suggested first to go richer because I have found more often than not cars will be lean rather than rich when they have these kinds of problems, Even a stock factory set up car will be running too lean on todays fuel, so my first reaction is to try to richen it, if richer makes the car run hotter, then you know your on the other side of the curve and you can try the leaner route. what ever works for your engine and driving needs.

Like tradisrad thinks....Twisty roads, rolling hills, cars to pass, and you will probably prefer richer, if your steady on the interstate, leaner might be nicer if it can save some gas.
deviate a lot from factory specs in mixture and you have to start changing other things to maintain drivability. all a trade off.

[mrbubblehead]

Is it possible for the OP to set his carbs to run lean while cruising on the freeway and rich in other driving conditions so he has power? Or does he need to drop hundreds of dollars into monitoring equipment to achieve this? From the OP he is monitoring his oil temp with a dip-stick temp gauge. Not very high tech no expensive.

Many guys have added a second oil cooler to help reduce oil temps. Some have even gone as far as changing the entire air cooling system (to the horizontal fan set up) to reduce temps.

yes, that is the best thing about weber idf's. they are very well thought out and engineered. your idle jets, which deliver fuel to the progressive circuit, can be real lean. especially when complimented with the svda. the svda will advance up 42 degrees. idle/progressive circuit will be used for part throttle and cruise situations. this is where you get your killer m.p.g. and lower cylinder head and exhaust gas temps.

then, when you jet your mains rich, (12.75-13.25) you dont run the risk of being lean at WOT. the svda will run out of vacuum and retard back to 28 degrees. so when your giving your 250 lbs buddy i ride (high load), or cranking it up thru the twisties, you wont run the risk of running lean because you will be on the mains anyways. this time you will be on the other side of the curve (rich of peek) running cooler.

stoich (14.7) is the death zone. this is where your cylinder head temps and exhaust gas temps are highest. and should be avoided at all times.

NOW, i dont have actual proof of this. this is 80 year old information. these tests where done years ago. the aircraft guys are masters of this. aircooled or watercooled. it dosent matter. it is what it is. the aircraft guys have alot more riding on this information. higher fuel costs, higher engine overhaul costs, but most important, they cant look for the nearest off ramp if there motor blows chunks. literally.

and no, he dosnt need to invest in a bunch of hidollar instrumentation. i think ac.net rents a portable wideband instrument. just install it, do your jetting, then send it back. only the real anal guys (myself included) invest in the instrumentation. so we can see what the effects are from the changes we make.

[ape914]

Is it possible for the OP to set his carbs to run lean while cruising on the freeway and rich in other driving conditions so he has power? Or does he need to drop hundreds of dollars into monitoring equipment to achieve this? From the OP he is monitoring his oil temp with a dip-stick temp gauge. Not very high tech no expensive.

Many guys have added a second oil cooler to help reduce oil temps. Some have even gone as far as changing the entire air cooling system (to the horizontal fan set up) to reduce temps.

yes, that is the best thing about weber idf's. they are very well thought out and engineered. your idle jets, which deliver fuel to the progressive circuit, can be real lean. especially when complimented with the svda. the svda will advance up 42 degrees. idle/progressive circuit will be used for part throttle and cruise situations. this is where you get your killer m.p.g. and lower cylinder head and exhaust gas temps.

then, when you jet your mains rich, (12.75-13.25) you dont run the risk of being lean at WOT. the svda will run out of vacuum and retard back to 28 degrees. so when your giving your 250 lbs buddy i ride (high load), or cranking it up thru the twisties, you wont run the risk of running lean because you will be on the mains anyways. this time you will be on the other side of the curve (rich of peek) running cooler.

stoich (14.7) is the death zone. this is where your cylinder head temps and exhaust gas temps are highest. and should be avoided at all times.

NOW, i dont have actual proof of this. this is 80 year old information. these tests where done years ago. the aircraft guys are masters of this. aircooled or watercooled. it dosent matter. it is what it is. the aircraft guys have alot more riding on this information. higher fuel costs, higher engine overhaul costs, but most important, they cant look for the nearest off ramp if there motor blows chunks. literally.

and no, he dosnt need to invest in a bunch of hidollar instrumentation. i think ac.net rents a portable wideband instrument. just install it, do your jetting, then send it back. only the real anal guys (myself included) invest in the instrumentation. so we can see what the effects are from the changes we make.

What would you think would need be changed to get a lean burn on a D-jetted car? howmuch more advance might be needed, and how can the advance be backed down for acceleration? That is the biggest question I have on this issue.

I have run Zeniths that gave fantastic mpg on a 356, yet still allowed spirited driving. i wonder how they would have read on a Air Fuel meter?

[tradisrad]

yes, that is the best thing about weber idf's. they are very well thought out and engineered. your idle jets, which deliver fuel to the progressive circuit, can be real lean. especially when complimented with the svda. the svda will advance up 42 degrees. idle/progressive circuit will be used for part throttle and cruise situations. this is where you get your killer m.p.g. and lower cylinder head and exhaust gas temps.

then, when you jet your mains rich, (12.75-13.25) you dont run the risk of being lean at WOT. the svda will run out of vacuum and retard back to 28 degrees. so when your giving your 250 lbs buddy i ride (high load), or cranking it up thru the twisties, you wont run the risk of running lean because you will be on the mains anyways. this time you will be on the other side of the curve (rich of peek) running cooler.

So, it is really the combination of the special dizzy and the idf carbs. thanks for clearing this up for me.
My 914 (just got back from driving it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) is still d-jet and I've never been much of a carb guy. However, I must say that this set up sounds interesting allowing both economy and power.
Maybe I'll look into it for a future mod. Can more HP be gained by this over d-jet? Is a special cam needed; Raby's 9550?

[ape914]

One other thing that can be added to the tunning tool box is an automatically adjustable fuel regulator. Upon senseing the manifold vacuum change when the accelerator is floored from a lean cruise, the fuel pressure can be bumped up, maybe from the leaner end of 27 psi to the richer end 34 psi or what ever. Some Vanagons have a regulator like this, maybe can be adjusted to needs, some other cars should have simular regulators, so there should be plenty of choices.

so we got these things we can tweek on an engine, hopefully finding a nice combo of good mpg, good sporty performance, and cool running.........

spark timing, Use an electronic adjustable unit, knob or switch(es) on dash for adjust lean or sporty performance.

mixture via MPS, Use two differently adjusted MPS one for lean cruise, one for power, switch on dash.


mixture via fuel pressure, Use automatic regulator to boost pressure when power required.



for carbs you need carbs that allow a cruise in idle circuit,
and ...

Adjustable or adjusted dizzie for spark timing to allow the greater advance need for lean cruise.

[ape914]

yes, that is the best thing about weber idf's. they are very well thought out and engineered. your idle jets, which deliver fuel to the progressive circuit, can be real lean. especially when complimented with the svda. the svda will advance up 42 degrees. idle/progressive circuit will be used for part throttle and cruise situations. this is where you get your killer m.p.g. and lower cylinder head and exhaust gas temps.

then, when you jet your mains rich, (12.75-13.25) you dont run the risk of being lean at WOT. the svda will run out of vacuum and retard back to 28 degrees. so when your giving your 250 lbs buddy i ride (high load), or cranking it up thru the twisties, you wont run the risk of running lean because you will be on the mains anyways. this time you will be on the other side of the curve (rich of peek) running cooler.

So, it is really the combination of the special dizzy and the idf carbs. thanks for clearing this up for me.
My 914 (just got back from driving it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ) is still d-jet and I've never been much of a carb guy. However, I must say that this set up sounds interesting allowing both economy and power.
Maybe I'll look into it for a future mod. Can more HP be gained by this over d-jet? Is a special cam needed; Raby's 9550?

Call Elgins Cams, or check website. They know the cam stuff and have a huge selection of type IV grinds, they are real helpful on the phone and can suggest a grind (or custom grind) for your needs, they have been around for near half a century I think. Their prices actually are better than Raby. I have several Elgin cams in my cars and am very pleased.

http://elgincams.com/

[ape914]

He's our thread locker. Whenever an informative thread comes along he makes a few post and BAM. The thread is locked. Now this one is gonna locked pretty soon too.

By the way, cabinetmaker, not ape has the last locked post of record.

Locked Thread Score Board.......

Cabinetmaker 1, Ape 0.


Will cabinetmaker be able to retain his lead?

Stay tunned for more action packed action!!!!

[r_towle]

Is it possible for the OP to set his carbs to run lean while cruising on the freeway and rich in other driving conditions so he has power? Or does he need to drop hundreds of dollars into monitoring equipment to achieve this? From the OP he is monitoring his oil temp with a dip-stick temp gauge. Not very high tech no expensive.

Many guys have added a second oil cooler to help reduce oil temps. Some have even gone as far as changing the entire air cooling system (to the horizontal fan set up) to reduce temps.

yes, that is the best thing about weber idf's. they are very well thought out and engineered. your idle jets, which deliver fuel to the progressive circuit, can be real lean. especially when complimented with the svda. the svda will advance up 42 degrees. idle/progressive circuit will be used for part throttle and cruise situations. this is where you get your killer m.p.g. and lower cylinder head and exhaust gas temps.

then, when you jet your mains rich, (12.75-13.25) you dont run the risk of being lean at WOT. the svda will run out of vacuum and retard back to 28 degrees. so when your giving your 250 lbs buddy i ride (high load), or cranking it up thru the twisties, you wont run the risk of running lean because you will be on the mains anyways. this time you will be on the other side of the curve (rich of peek) running cooler.

stoich (14.7) is the death zone. this is where your cylinder head temps and exhaust gas temps are highest. and should be avoided at all times.

NOW, i dont have actual proof of this. this is 80 year old information. these tests where done years ago. the aircraft guys are masters of this. aircooled or watercooled. it dosent matter. it is what it is. the aircraft guys have alot more riding on this information. higher fuel costs, higher engine overhaul costs, but most important, they cant look for the nearest off ramp if there motor blows chunks. literally.

and no, he dosnt need to invest in a bunch of hidollar instrumentation. i think ac.net rents a portable wideband instrument. just install it, do your jetting, then send it back. only the real anal guys (myself included) invest in the instrumentation. so we can see what the effects are from the changes we make.

Chris explained a different way of setting up carbs properly while driving.
I hope he takes the time to explain it, cause it made some sense.

rich

[ape914]

Is it possible for the OP to set his carbs to run lean while cruising on the freeway and rich in other driving conditions so he has power? Or does he need to drop hundreds of dollars into monitoring equipment to achieve this? From the OP he is monitoring his oil temp with a dip-stick temp gauge. Not very high tech no expensive.

Many guys have added a second oil cooler to help reduce oil temps. Some have even gone as far as changing the entire air cooling system (to the horizontal fan set up) to reduce temps.

yes, that is the best thing about weber idf's. they are very well thought out and engineered. your idle jets, which deliver fuel to the progressive circuit, can be real lean. especially when complimented with the svda. the svda will advance up 42 degrees. idle/progressive circuit will be used for part throttle and cruise situations. this is where you get your killer m.p.g. and lower cylinder head and exhaust gas temps.

then, when you jet your mains rich, (12.75-13.25) you dont run the risk of being lean at WOT. the svda will run out of vacuum and retard back to 28 degrees. so when your giving your 250 lbs buddy i ride (high load), or cranking it up thru the twisties, you wont run the risk of running lean because you will be on the mains anyways. this time you will be on the other side of the curve (rich of peek) running cooler.

stoich (14.7) is the death zone. this is where your cylinder head temps and exhaust gas temps are highest. and should be avoided at all times.

NOW, i dont have actual proof of this. this is 80 year old information. these tests where done years ago. the aircraft guys are masters of this. aircooled or watercooled. it dosent matter. it is what it is. the aircraft guys have alot more riding on this information. higher fuel costs, higher engine overhaul costs, but most important, they cant look for the nearest off ramp if there motor blows chunks. literally.

and no, he dosnt need to invest in a bunch of hidollar instrumentation. i think ac.net rents a portable wideband instrument. just install it, do your jetting, then send it back. only the real anal guys (myself included) invest in the instrumentation. so we can see what the effects are from the changes we make.

Chris explained a different way of setting up carbs properly while driving.
I hope he takes the time to explain it, cause it made some sense.

rich

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[ChrisFoley]

No different, I got the procedure from mrbubblehead.

[72hardtop]

The following chart shows CHT, EGT etc...and relation to stoic 14.7