Megasquirt Project, .....IT RUNS ! Options

[Michelj13]

Hi,

Although I have been a member for a while (since I purchased my 914), I have not posted much. I still love my 914 and it's is interesting how this car drives like an absolute go-cart.

Anyway, my engine is a carbed 2270 that I built up with the help of many including Jake, and I am now embarking on a Megasquirt project. As many know, megasquirt is relatively inexpensive for a programmable FI system. I find, however, that there is too much information out there that it is nothing short of confusing. I want to share my progress so that at the end of the day, some may learn and may become less intimidated. Hopefully I will be successful....we'll see.

I have so many questions that I will post, along with some things that I have already learned. ANY and ALL comments appreciated.

I made a youtube video of my progress up to date. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoJfMZ9YgQc

Michel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[aircooledtechguy]

I have no doubts that your Megasquirt install will be successful. You seem to have a MUCH firmer grasp on electronics than most folks do (myself included). Really nice test set-up!!

When I did mine, I was pretty overwhelmed with all the info too. I likened it to using a PC; you can literally run everything in your life with it, but all I want to do is surf the internet. . . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) MS has so many capabilities 9if you have the ability to use and understand it all, but in the end, I just wanted the injectors to squirt and the plugs to fire at the right time

I'm running it on my 2056 w/ EDIS that's in my my shop-car. If you want, I can e-mail you the basic MSQ tuning file and that will be a good starting point for tuning as all the basic parameters are really close and good for a type-4. Then you'll just need to run VEAL to get the VE tables closer for your 2270 and fine tune from there.

PM me if you want it.

BTW, I started really getting this thing dialed-in once I switched to domestic micro-brews. . . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[Mike Bellis]

I have built many EFI projects with various systems.

In my opinion, you need to get that off the bench and install it into the car. It appears you have it all working but there is no substitute for a working engine. You will not be able to tune anything on the bench like that. Get it on the engine and finish it up. Find a chassis dynometer in your area that you can rent time on. The bench cannot compensate for various load conditions.

You're sooooo close... Get r done!

BTW, I do appreciate seeing everything on the bench operational. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[cgnj]

Hi,

You may want to search Dave Hunts 2270 project. I believe that MS setup was blamed for the many of the problems on his build. But, if you succeed, I'm willing to follow in your footsteps.

Carlos

[aircooledtechguy]

Hi,

You may want to search Dave Hunts 2270 project. I believe that MS setup was blamed for the many of the problems on his build. But, if you succeed, I'm willing to follow in your footsteps.

Carlos

Dave's is back to Megasquirt and running better than ever. MS works well. My car is proof of that.

[cgnj]

Dave's is back to Megasquirt and running better than ever. MS works well. My car is proof of that.

Not able to find any updates on his project. Have a link? My recollection is there is a question regarding the restriction with a stock pleneum and running overly rich. I though he switched to ITB's and SDS

Carlos

[Michelj13]

I appreciate your comments Nate. I am still not very confident about this project especially when it comes to VE tables, setup parameters, idle valves (are they really necessary), and that MAP sensor mounted on the MS pcb seems a little out of place. I will post what I have been working on soon for some feedback. I may call on you for that VE file you mentioned. It's all kind of mysterious at the moment.

All the bench testing is important for me to better understand how things work and it's fun (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

When I finally get to installing everything in the car, hopefully, there will be less guesswork and less of a sore back too. There is no rush for me and as I have said, maybe it will help others understand the MS system more thoroughly and more successful installations will result. That's my goal anyway.

I think some of those microbrews will arrive later. The Dos Equis were not really that good (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[aircooledtechguy]

Dave's is back to Megasquirt and running better than ever. MS works well. My car is proof of that.

Not able to find any updates on his project. Have a link? My recollection is there is a question regarding the restriction with a stock pleneum and running overly rich. I though he switched to ITB's and SDS

Carlos

He switched to ITB and SDS. Then had issues with the SDS not correcting as he went up in altitude (he's not the only guy who's experienced that with SDS). He then switched back to MS with the ITBs and after some tuning, it appears to be running really good. His car was extremely quick ar WCR'11 in Medford. He's had MS back on it for at least a year and a half now.

[cgnj]

He switched to ITB and SDS. Then had issues with the SDS not correcting as he went up in altitude (he's not the only guy who's experienced that with SDS). He then switched back to MS with the ITBs and after some tuning, it appears to be running really good. His car was extremely quick ar WCR'11 in Medford. He's had MS back on it for at least a year and a half now.

Hi Nate,

Now this will turn to a STF thread. I was not aware of the change. It is as I expected though. Any thoughts or experience on using the stock or modified pleneum and runners? I've sat on the MS conversion since 2003. I guess I could ask my son to use his $140k engineering degree (that Mom and Dad paid for) to do some calcs for me. Trying to avoid the ITB route. I'm running Dell 45's and I'm older now. Looking to reduce the noise and support adding AC. I see MS as the answer and have believed should work for the last 9-10 years. Afraid to cook my motor. Dave's thread made me wary. I already have lots of intake noise, looking to reduce it.

Sorry for the hijack,

Carlos

[Tom]

First that is a very nice bench set up and I am sure you have advanced your knowledge a lot by using it. I agree that it is time to get it into the car.
You mentioned noise on some of the lines. Did you ground both ends of the shields on the sensitive wiring? That can cause a ground loop and introduces all kinds of noise problems. Only ground one of the ends of the shields and carry them all to the same grounding point.
Tom

[aircooledtechguy]

He switched to ITB and SDS. Then had issues with the SDS not correcting as he went up in altitude (he's not the only guy who's experienced that with SDS). He then switched back to MS with the ITBs and after some tuning, it appears to be running really good. His car was extremely quick ar WCR'11 in Medford. He's had MS back on it for at least a year and a half now.

Hi Nate,

Now this will turn to a STF thread. I was not aware of the change. It is as I expected though. Any thoughts or experience on using the stock or modified pleneum and runners? I've sat on the MS conversion since 2003. I guess I could ask my son to use his $140k engineering degree (that Mom and Dad paid for) to do some calcs for me. Trying to avoid the ITB route. I'm running Dell 45's and I'm older now. Looking to reduce the noise and support adding AC. I see MS as the answer and have believed should work for the last 9-10 years. Afraid to cook my motor. Dave's thread made me wary. I already have lots of intake noise, looking to reduce it.

Sorry for the hijack,

Carlos

How large is your motor?? I know that Jake has mentioned that it won't support much larger than a 2056cc at the higher end of the RPMs. The modified bus plenum with the 2.0L 914 runners I have in my shop car work fantastic. If your motor is larger, it's not hard to make a custom plenum and use a larger single TB from another car. It's all about sizing the plenum and TB for the motor you have. If you want, you can use the IAT sensor in the d-jet manifold, use all the injectors, the CHT sensor virtually everything for your MS conversion. You will have to make or buy an adapter for the TPS though and loose the D-jet TPS switch. All it takes is a custom wiring harness and a few hours laying it all out so it looks nice. I would highly recommend getting a 12' bundle of the engine harness wires from DIYAutotune to make your harness from. It will eliminate wiring stuff up wrong once it's all loomed together. Ask me how I know this. . . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

One small piece of advice when wiring the VR sensor wires. Make the wires extra long and spin them with a drill so they are twisted as they go. This eliminates a lot of the noise that effects the signal coming from the VR sensor.

Another note on the VR sensor wires. If you go to start your bench tested system and find you have no spark AND no pulsing of the injectors, FIRST try switching the wires from the VR sensor. That thing ONLY works one way and everything is reliant on that signal for it all to work. Again, ask me how I know that too. . . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

I'm sold on MS. Carbs are a compromise. Distributors are a compromise. With MS, you have it all, 'cept you are stuck with whatever cam the motor is built with. If only someone would make cheap and effective solenoid operated valves, we'd be set!!

[Michelj13]

The plan is to use a 2L modified intake manifold with Porsche 944 ( 55mm) throttle body and stock 36mm ID runners.

The VR tach wheel and sensor that I am using is from Mark at Original Customs. I installed it at the time of the rebuild because I knew that I wanted to go with FI eventually. This saves me from pulling the engine out which is not my favorite job.

Mark also suggested that I use the stock intake system as he had success with it, and it is way cheaper that using dual ITB. There is also no linkage which is a major PITA if you ask me.

I had some 34 lb/hr injectors reconditioned that I purchased on ebay (part # 0280150431). Mr. Injector did a fabulous job cleaning them up and modifying with hose, O rings etc. for stock setup. Total price of injectors was less than $200. Hope they workout.

For the CLT sensor, I cut open a GM coolant sensor, extracted the thermistor, added wires and inserted into ground lug with some epoxy. I got this idea from the STF site. I checked calibration in boiling water, freezer, etc. and it responded as it should, so the default MS TS setting can be used. I have not decided where on the engine ( head, valve cover, or case) I will install this sensor.

I am undecided about the placement of the IAT sensor. I see many have installed it in the intake manifold, but, I have noticed that most cars have it installed between the air cleaner and the TB?

I have not purchased my O2 sensor as of yet. I have experience with an AEM one with gauge that I used to help me calibrate the CIS in my 911 a few years back (it seemed to work fine) and, DYIautotune is pushing Innovate. Any opinions on this?

Lastly, I want to make sure of the the firing order is 1, 4, 3, 2 and the wasted spark should have 1+3 and 2+4 firing together?

Tom, proper grounding and and minimizing noise is a definite concern. Thanks for your advice.

[McMark]

Yup, the firing order and spark plug pairing is correct. One tid-bit that I learned while working out my MicroSquirt setup is that the injectors are paired differently than the spark plugs. When the injectors fire isn't nearly as critical as the spark plugs, but I found it interesting. IIRC, the injectors are 1-4 and 2-3, and I imagine the reasoning is that one injector is squirting at the intake valve that is open, and the other injector is firing at the intake valve that is about to open.

[Michelj13]

IIRC, the injectors are 1-4 and 2-3, and I imagine the reasoning is that one injector is squirting at the intake valve that is open, and the other injector is firing at the intake valve that is about to open.

Mark, thanks, that is VERY good information. I have not yet assembled the injector harnesses or even looked at the injector setups yet. Maybe later this week, hopefully.

I want to do a another youtube video of the injectors firing fuel (outside without spark plugs nearby). Crazy, I know.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[aircooledtechguy]

I'm not sure if microsquirt is different than regular MS with the injector firing sequence or not, but mine are paired 1/3-2/4 just like the EDIS module. It's not as critical though since they are batch fired and not sequential.

I've got my CLT temp sensor mounted in the center of the left valve cover. It works fine there, but it does take a while to get warm. To make the WUE sequence correct, I simply lowered the thresholds for that and have WUE off by about 95F as registered by the sensor. If I had it to do again, I think I would put it in the air stream under the cylinders to get a quicker reaction and more real-time reading.

Adapting that plenum for that TB will be a snap and should give you the better flow at the top-end.

I'm running an LC1 and have had no issues with it.

For the love of Pete, get that thing installed and get tuning already!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[wingnut86]

Agreed with Tom, similar background as he has.

Ummm, in blowing things up to learn from, sorry Tom, I couldn't help my Tarets.

Also, the sensor idea is way cool. I wonder what a FLAPS sells these for - pretend there is a lightbulb (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

BTW, someone posted here a week or 2 ago about TBIs off a Honda street bike that match fairly close to carb runners, that's also another possibility...

Sorry for the hijack.

Good luck and keep updating us.

Dave

[McMark]

I'm not sure if microsquirt is different than regular MS with the injector firing sequence or not, but mine are paired 1/3-2/4 just like the EDIS module. It's not as critical though since they are batch fired and not sequential.

It's not the ECU/Brain that matters in injector firing, it's how their wired. The paired injectors share a physical wire. If you look at the pinout on an ecu it's only got two connections for injectors. Which ones you pair up is decided by the wiring harness builder.

It's not as critical and I'm doubtful that you would notice a difference between 1/3-2/4 and 1/4-3/2 and I wouldn't dig into a running car just to swap it. But for those who are still building harnesses and those in the future who read this thread, I think it's worth pairing the injectors the way the factory did.

[Michelj13]

Can anyone comment on my settings? I put them all together in one photo. Any and all comment appreciated (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[McMark]

IIRC, the Tooth #1 Angle (top right box in your image) should be closer to 290°. Once it's running, you'll need to fine-tune that setting with a timing light.

[Michelj13]

I am deleting this post, because information was not correct.