Hi,

Although I have been a member for a while (since I purchased my 914), I have not posted much. I still love my 914 and it's is interesting how this car drives like an absolute go-cart.

Anyway, my engine is a carbed 2270 that I built up with the help of many including Jake, and I am now embarking on a Megasquirt project. As many know, megasquirt is relatively inexpensive for a programmable FI system. I find, however, that there is too much information out there that it is nothing short of confusing. I want to share my progress so that at the end of the day, some may learn and may become less intimidated. Hopefully I will be successful....we'll see.

I have so many questions that I will post, along with some things that I have already learned. ANY and ALL comments appreciated.

I made a youtube video of my progress up to date. Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoJfMZ9YgQc

Michel

I have no doubts that your Megasquirt install will be successful. You seem to have a MUCH firmer grasp on electronics than most folks do (myself included). Really nice test set-up!!

When I did mine, I was pretty overwhelmed with all the info too. I likened it to using a PC; you can literally run everything in your life with it, but all I want to do is surf the internet. . . MS has so many capabilities 9if you have the ability to use and understand it all, but in the end, I just wanted the injectors to squirt and the plugs to fire at the right time

I'm running it on my 2056 w/ EDIS that's in my my shop-car. If you want, I can e-mail you the basic MSQ tuning file and that will be a good starting point for tuning as all the basic parameters are really close and good for a type-4. Then you'll just need to run VEAL to get the VE tables closer for your 2270 and fine tune from there.

PM me if you want it.

BTW, I started really getting this thing dialed-in once I switched to domestic micro-brews. . .

I have built many EFI projects with various systems.

In my opinion, you need to get that off the bench and install it into the car. It appears you have it all working but there is no substitute for a working engine. You will not be able to tune anything on the bench like that. Get it on the engine and finish it up. Find a chassis dynometer in your area that you can rent time on. The bench cannot compensate for various load conditions.

You're sooooo close... Get r done!

BTW, I do appreciate seeing everything on the bench operational.

Hi,

You may want to search Dave Hunts 2270 project. I believe that MS setup was blamed for the many of the problems on his build. But, if you succeed, I'm willing to follow in your footsteps.

Carlos

Dave's is back to Megasquirt and running better than ever. MS works well. My car is proof of that.

Not able to find any updates on his project. Have a link? My recollection is there is a question regarding the restriction with a stock pleneum and running overly rich. I though he switched to ITB's and SDS

Carlos

I appreciate your comments Nate. I am still not very confident about this project especially when it comes to VE tables, setup parameters, idle valves (are they really necessary), and that MAP sensor mounted on the MS pcb seems a little out of place. I will post what I have been working on soon for some feedback. I may call on you for that VE file you mentioned. It's all kind of mysterious at the moment.

All the bench testing is important for me to better understand how things work and it's fun

When I finally get to installing everything in the car, hopefully, there will be less guesswork and less of a sore back too. There is no rush for me and as I have said, maybe it will help others understand the MS system more thoroughly and more successful installations will result. That's my goal anyway.

I think some of those microbrews will arrive later. The Dos Equis were not really that good

He switched to ITB and SDS. Then had issues with the SDS not correcting as he went up in altitude (he's not the only guy who's experienced that with SDS). He then switched back to MS with the ITBs and after some tuning, it appears to be running really good. His car was extremely quick ar WCR'11 in Medford. He's had MS back on it for at least a year and a half now.

Hi Nate,

Now this will turn to a STF thread. I was not aware of the change. It is as I expected though. Any thoughts or experience on using the stock or modified pleneum and runners? I've sat on the MS conversion since 2003. I guess I could ask my son to use his $140k engineering degree (that Mom and Dad paid for) to do some calcs for me. Trying to avoid the ITB route. I'm running Dell 45's and I'm older now. Looking to reduce the noise and support adding AC. I see MS as the answer and have believed should work for the last 9-10 years. Afraid to cook my motor. Dave's thread made me wary. I already have lots of intake noise, looking to reduce it.

Sorry for the hijack,

Carlos

First that is a very nice bench set up and I am sure you have advanced your knowledge a lot by using it. I agree that it is time to get it into the car.
You mentioned noise on some of the lines. Did you ground both ends of the shields on the sensitive wiring? That can cause a ground loop and introduces all kinds of noise problems. Only ground one of the ends of the shields and carry them all to the same grounding point.
Tom

How large is your motor?? I know that Jake has mentioned that it won't support much larger than a 2056cc at the higher end of the RPMs. The modified bus plenum with the 2.0L 914 runners I have in my shop car work fantastic. If your motor is larger, it's not hard to make a custom plenum and use a larger single TB from another car. It's all about sizing the plenum and TB for the motor you have. If you want, you can use the IAT sensor in the d-jet manifold, use all the injectors, the CHT sensor virtually everything for your MS conversion. You will have to make or buy an adapter for the TPS though and loose the D-jet TPS switch. All it takes is a custom wiring harness and a few hours laying it all out so it looks nice. I would highly recommend getting a 12' bundle of the engine harness wires from DIYAutotune to make your harness from. It will eliminate wiring stuff up wrong once it's all loomed together. Ask me how I know this. . .

One small piece of advice when wiring the VR sensor wires. Make the wires extra long and spin them with a drill so they are twisted as they go. This eliminates a lot of the noise that effects the signal coming from the VR sensor.

Another note on the VR sensor wires. If you go to start your bench tested system and find you have no spark AND no pulsing of the injectors, FIRST try switching the wires from the VR sensor. That thing ONLY works one way and everything is reliant on that signal for it all to work. Again, ask me how I know that too. . .

I'm sold on MS. Carbs are a compromise. Distributors are a compromise. With MS, you have it all, 'cept you are stuck with whatever cam the motor is built with. If only someone would make cheap and effective solenoid operated valves, we'd be set!!

The plan is to use a 2L modified intake manifold with Porsche 944 ( 55mm) throttle body and stock 36mm ID runners.

The VR tach wheel and sensor that I am using is from Mark at Original Customs. I installed it at the time of the rebuild because I knew that I wanted to go with FI eventually. This saves me from pulling the engine out which is not my favorite job.

Mark also suggested that I use the stock intake system as he had success with it, and it is way cheaper that using dual ITB. There is also no linkage which is a major PITA if you ask me.

I had some 34 lb/hr injectors reconditioned that I purchased on ebay (part # 0280150431). Mr. Injector did a fabulous job cleaning them up and modifying with hose, O rings etc. for stock setup. Total price of injectors was less than $200. Hope they workout.

For the CLT sensor, I cut open a GM coolant sensor, extracted the thermistor, added wires and inserted into ground lug with some epoxy. I got this idea from the STF site. I checked calibration in boiling water, freezer, etc. and it responded as it should, so the default MS TS setting can be used. I have not decided where on the engine ( head, valve cover, or case) I will install this sensor.

I am undecided about the placement of the IAT sensor. I see many have installed it in the intake manifold, but, I have noticed that most cars have it installed between the air cleaner and the TB?

I have not purchased my O2 sensor as of yet. I have experience with an AEM one with gauge that I used to help me calibrate the CIS in my 911 a few years back (it seemed to work fine) and, DYIautotune is pushing Innovate. Any opinions on this?

Lastly, I want to make sure of the the firing order is 1, 4, 3, 2 and the wasted spark should have 1+3 and 2+4 firing together?

Tom, proper grounding and and minimizing noise is a definite concern. Thanks for your advice.

Yup, the firing order and spark plug pairing is correct. One tid-bit that I learned while working out my MicroSquirt setup is that the injectors are paired differently than the spark plugs. When the injectors fire isn't nearly as critical as the spark plugs, but I found it interesting. IIRC, the injectors are 1-4 and 2-3, and I imagine the reasoning is that one injector is squirting at the intake valve that is open, and the other injector is firing at the intake valve that is about to open.

Mark, thanks, that is VERY good information. I have not yet assembled the injector harnesses or even looked at the injector setups yet. Maybe later this week, hopefully.

I want to do a another youtube video of the injectors firing fuel (outside without spark plugs nearby). Crazy, I know....

I'm not sure if microsquirt is different than regular MS with the injector firing sequence or not, but mine are paired 1/3-2/4 just like the EDIS module. It's not as critical though since they are batch fired and not sequential.

I've got my CLT temp sensor mounted in the center of the left valve cover. It works fine there, but it does take a while to get warm. To make the WUE sequence correct, I simply lowered the thresholds for that and have WUE off by about 95F as registered by the sensor. If I had it to do again, I think I would put it in the air stream under the cylinders to get a quicker reaction and more real-time reading.

Adapting that plenum for that TB will be a snap and should give you the better flow at the top-end.

I'm running an LC1 and have had no issues with it.

For the love of Pete, get that thing installed and get tuning already!!

Agreed with Tom, similar background as he has.

Ummm, in blowing things up to learn from, sorry Tom, I couldn't help my Tarets.

Also, the sensor idea is way cool. I wonder what a FLAPS sells these for - pretend there is a lightbulb

BTW, someone posted here a week or 2 ago about TBIs off a Honda street bike that match fairly close to carb runners, that's also another possibility...

Sorry for the hijack.

Good luck and keep updating us.

Dave

It's not the ECU/Brain that matters in injector firing, it's how their wired. The paired injectors share a physical wire. If you look at the pinout on an ecu it's only got two connections for injectors. Which ones you pair up is decided by the wiring harness builder.

It's not as critical and I'm doubtful that you would notice a difference between 1/3-2/4 and 1/4-3/2 and I wouldn't dig into a running car just to swap it. But for those who are still building harnesses and those in the future who read this thread, I think it's worth pairing the injectors the way the factory did.

Can anyone comment on my settings? I put them all together in one photo. Any and all comment appreciated

IIRC, the Tooth #1 Angle (top right box in your image) should be closer to 290°. Once it's running, you'll need to fine-tune that setting with a timing light.

I am deleting this post, because information was not correct.

A good IPA guarantees success IMHO

The main thing to remember about the 36-1 wheel and the VR sensor is that missing tooth needs to lead the VR sensor by 90 degrees for a 4 cylinder motor. I've not used Mark's kit, but if you have the ability to clock the tooth portion of the wheel on it's hub it while the engine is set @ TDC, you won't have to adjust the TDC in the computer in order to get the timing accurate in relation to the actual crank position.

IMHO, timing should always be confirmed via timing light to make sure what you see on the engine matches what the computer thinks the timing is. The toothed wheel isn't adjustable, but MegaSquirt is very flexible on making this adjustment.

Absolutely! I hope my comments didn't make that seem un-important, because absolute verification is 100% required. Can't know where to go unless you know where you are.

Yes, I confirmed tonight that the Tooth #1 angle adjustment is VERY flexible. I took some photos of the timing wheel (that I marked up with TDC roughly same spot as Mark's wheel) with my test setup. I fee comfortable with this now

Also, ordered up some SS fuel lines+tank screen from Tangerine Racing, so looks like I will be diving into the car soon. Wonder if I really need to remove the tank
I need to mount my fuel pump under the tank too. Any tips on doing this?

Click to view attachment

boy this looks familiar!

When you get into tuning land, I HIGHLY recommend purchasing the full version of tunerstudio and using their autotune function to set your VE tables. They will get you to 90% of where you need to be (maybe 100%).

Also: I know you'll do this, but when you get everything in the car, make sure every sensor is reading as expected before even trying to start or tune the engine -- IAT, CHT, MPS, AFR, TPS are the main ones I think.

Looks like fun!!

I did buy the full version and I am going through great lengths to test everything before hand. To me the journey is a BIG part of the fun. The VE tuning part does make me a little nervous.

Hope you didn't sell your 914 yet. In my opinion, I think you should keep it. It's value is only going up

Just receive my SS "through the tunnel fuel lines from Chris. Guess I'll be pulling the gas tank this weekend

Almost ready to pull fuel tank. You can probably tell I am trying to delay this part.

I laid out my fuel system components and everything seems to work as it should. Next step is starting install in 914.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZkWpAmDFPM

Yes you are crazy!!! I think I would have used water...LOL.

Very cool to see it in action

Actually, if you used Bacatdi 151 and Long Island Tea mixers, all your friends could do shots

Follow it up with 91% alcohol to clean the pipes so to speak.

Of course, lighting it and toasting up some Brauts in the sweat spot would have enamored you in your neighbors eyes

I had some success this weekend The relay board got installed, hole through firewall, ran basic power also ran my head temp sensors. After going this, I still was not in the mood to remove fuel tank so I thought I would try running the engine using MS to just replace the distributor and coils. Success
Once I set the trigger angle correctly at 70 degrees, it started right up. It ran so mkuch smoother than before. I even ran it around the block. Can t wait to try the rest of the system.

I rewarded myself with some cold Lagunitas IPAs

Glad to hear that you actually took it off the bench and hooked it up to an actual engine. Let the tuning begin. . .

Thread title is "Will It Ever Run?" Now it does, so you might want to update that.

I tried, but was unable to figure it out. I will start a new one once I get the fuel injection installed. Hopefully, this will happen before the end of the year!

You don't have to start a new thread. When you click on edit, you have to choose full edit to change the title.

Step up the pace! I want to do microsquirt this winter and need some encouragement.

Ok, the title is changed, yeh me. I only work in one speed, SLOW

Here is a photo of the temporary coil setup and look the distributor wires are gone.
Click to view attachment

and some photos of my head temp sensor setup....lest than $25 for both on ebay!

Click to view attachment

Unfortunately that location won't give you true readings for head temp. The numbers you'll see talked about here on the site for a head temp gauge refer to a sender installed under the spark plug.

Of course, if you're using that head temp location to feed the Megasquirt, then it'll work fine for that.

I knew this when I decided to go this route. I have also read there are discrepencies in the readings from one head temp setup to the next. Which one can you trust? Then, I read a post where an aircraft mechanic experimented with sensors under the plugs and attached to the outside of the head. The result was a temp difference of only few degrees and the reaction time was a few seconds slower. Hey, for 25 bucks, at least I have an idea of my head temps and don't have to fiddle with sensors under the plugs, etc.

Some good progress over the last few weeks. Finally got the hard lines throught the tunnel installed, along with fuel pump under tank with wiring to the relay board. The fuel filter secured to the firewall and short lines going up to the engine bay. Pulled carbs, manifolds and linkage out too. Photos coming shortly.

I spent some time playing with the idle valve. I am driving it with a TIP 120 transistor. Lots to learn with this selecting frequency, duty cycle, figuring what is normal and inverted, etc.

Its almost time to address the VE table. Does anyone have a msq file I could use as a baseline to tune my 2270?

Check out the last post in the thread in my signature -- it's for a 2.0, but should get your engine running and be a starting point for tuning.

The MSQ stores all the settings, so if you've set up sensor parameters, loading a different MSQ will overwrite those changes.

Thanks for that heads up info. I did not realize this. So, I should be taking notes of all my current setups, load the "rwilner" 's MSQ file, then modify the settings for my sensors etc.

Sounds pretty straight forward. We will see...

Notes are always good anyway.

The MSQ is just a text file. You can open it in a word processes and find the VE table section, then copy and paste into your MSQ. BUT, you must take care not to change the format and order of the file. If you add an extra return/line or delete a comma, it will break the MSQ (keep backups before playing).

Save a copy of the MSQ after you're done making changes at regular intervals by clicking the "Save As" under the "File" menu. It should automatically name it with the date and time unless you give it a specific name. This is key because it's like a library back in time and allows you to easily identify an earlier tune even in the same day.

If I try tuning experiments over a few days that don't work as I would like; no big deal. I just flash in the tune from before I made all the experimental changes and I'm right back where I started. This is one of the best parts of MS; if you don;t like the changes, just instantly go back to what worked before and try a different direction.

I am comparing "rwilner"s msq file with mine and there are many format differences. My file is much largerat 86KB vs 28KB. This can possibly be explained by the microsquirt vs megasquirt v3, I don't really know.

Looking at some of the tables in each file, the afr table is straightforward, I can just cut and paste.

, and

The same is not that clear with the advance tables. Interestingly, my file had 3 have advance tables vs just the one in rwilner's.

When I compared the VE tables, mine had rows of 16 vs rwilner's 12 rows.

I don't really have a good understanding on all the tables, etc yet, so I think I would like to keep looking for a file that more closely resembles mine.

Just a few progress photos. I invite all comments

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
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I had the whole day from 8 am to 5 pm to work on my project. I got the manifolds, TB, and all the wiring done.

Well, the engine started right up and all sensors appeared to be reading something.
However, after the initial start up, the revs went past 4k before I turned off the ignition. I discovered the TPS was wired incorrectly. I fixed that, calibrated the TPS and the engine started up again. The idle then settled at 2600. I disconnected my fidle valve (it is normally closed), reduced the advance in the table and now idle is about 1200. TB is closed, so not sure where air is coming from. Also, it appears the engine speed does not change when I disconnect the #4 ignition coil and injector. I will need to check these.

Anyway, I ran out of gas, losing my sunlight> It was time to stop, and clean up. It really was a Good Day!

I bought the full version of TS back in Jan 2012. Does it expire?

I would appreciate any help in progressing from this point.

Yeh me

Photos coming soon.

Michel

Nice progress!

You will get it set up with all the help here.

John