What mods did you have to do to go with the ls2 drivers? I am currently adding the ignition part to my car, I have been running fuel only.
my system is pretty old also, version 2.2 MSII.
my ve's run around 65 at idle, but I have a pretty hot cam and high compression. I am also planning on adding resistor plugs to see if it eliminates some sensor signal noise..I wonder if using the ls2 coils adds noise?
Full Version: Megasquirt Project, .....IT RUNS !
QUOTE(crash914 @ Mar 17 2015, 01:47 PM) 
What mods did you have to do to go with the ls2 drivers? I am currently adding the ignition part to my car, I have been running fuel only.
my system is pretty old also, version 2.2 MSII.
my ve's run around 65 at idle, but I have a pretty hot cam and high compression. I am also planning on adding resistor plugs to see if it eliminates some sensor signal noise..I wonder if using the ls2 coils adds noise?
Adding LS2 coils would require a 36-1 wheel and a VR sensor. The coils have their own logic board in them so they could not be driven off a standard dizzy. You cannot replace the coil and use an LS2 coil.
You will need coil drivers on the MS board. I don't know if there is an area on the board to add them, there is on the V3 board.
If I'm not mistaken MS11 has the logic in it to run sequential spark if you wanted. Other wise you can run them in wasted spark mode.
QUOTE(toon1 @ Mar 18 2015, 10:06 AM)
QUOTE(crash914 @ Mar 17 2015, 01:47 PM)
What mods did you have to do to go with the ls2 drivers? I am currently adding the ignition part to my car, I have been running fuel only.
my system is pretty old also, version 2.2 MSII.
my ve's run around 65 at idle, but I have a pretty hot cam and high compression. I am also planning on adding resistor plugs to see if it eliminates some sensor signal noise..I wonder if using the ls2 coils adds noise?
Adding LS2 coils would require a 36-1 wheel and a VR sensor. The coils have their own logic board in them so they could not be driven off a standard dizzy. You cannot replace the coil and use an LS2 coil.
You will need coil drivers on the MS board. I don't know if there is an area on the board to add them, there is on the V3 board.
If I'm not mistaken MS11 has the logic in it to run sequential spark if you wanted. Other wise you can run them in wasted spark mode.
I am using a trigger wheel/bracket/hall sensor kit w/ LS2 coils from www.thedubshop.net with great success. I used to run a VR sensor when I ran EDIS and always had noise issues (which is always an issue/battle with VR sensors). With the hall sensor, I get clean signals and not one hiccup since the upgrade. Talk to Mario at thedubshop.net.
QUOTE(aircooledtechguy @ Mar 18 2015, 11:43 AM)
QUOTE(toon1 @ Mar 18 2015, 10:06 AM)
QUOTE(crash914 @ Mar 17 2015, 01:47 PM)
What mods did you have to do to go with the ls2 drivers? I am currently adding the ignition part to my car, I have been running fuel only.
my system is pretty old also, version 2.2 MSII.
my ve's run around 65 at idle, but I have a pretty hot cam and high compression. I am also planning on adding resistor plugs to see if it eliminates some sensor signal noise..I wonder if using the ls2 coils adds noise?
Adding LS2 coils would require a 36-1 wheel and a VR sensor. The coils have their own logic board in them so they could not be driven off a standard dizzy. You cannot replace the coil and use an LS2 coil.
You will need coil drivers on the MS board. I don't know if there is an area on the board to add them, there is on the V3 board.
If I'm not mistaken MS11 has the logic in it to run sequential spark if you wanted. Other wise you can run them in wasted spark mode.
I am using a trigger wheel/bracket/hall sensor kit w/ LS2 coils from www.thedubshop.net with great success. I used to run a VR sensor when I ran EDIS and always had noise issues (which is always an issue/battle with VR sensors). With the hall sensor, I get clean signals and not one hiccup since the upgrade. Talk to Mario at thedubshop.net.
What kind of noise were you getting?
What symptoms did you see with the noise?
Does the car seem to perform better with the LS2 coils?
QUOTE(toon1 @ Mar 18 2015, 03:02 PM)
QUOTE(aircooledtechguy @ Mar 18 2015, 11:43 AM)
QUOTE(toon1 @ Mar 18 2015, 10:06 AM)
QUOTE(crash914 @ Mar 17 2015, 01:47 PM)
What mods did you have to do to go with the ls2 drivers? I am currently adding the ignition part to my car, I have been running fuel only.
my system is pretty old also, version 2.2 MSII.
my ve's run around 65 at idle, but I have a pretty hot cam and high compression. I am also planning on adding resistor plugs to see if it eliminates some sensor signal noise..I wonder if using the ls2 coils adds noise?
Adding LS2 coils would require a 36-1 wheel and a VR sensor. The coils have their own logic board in them so they could not be driven off a standard dizzy. You cannot replace the coil and use an LS2 coil.
You will need coil drivers on the MS board. I don't know if there is an area on the board to add them, there is on the V3 board.
If I'm not mistaken MS11 has the logic in it to run sequential spark if you wanted. Other wise you can run them in wasted spark mode.
I am using a trigger wheel/bracket/hall sensor kit w/ LS2 coils from www.thedubshop.net with great success. I used to run a VR sensor when I ran EDIS and always had noise issues (which is always an issue/battle with VR sensors). With the hall sensor, I get clean signals and not one hiccup since the upgrade. Talk to Mario at thedubshop.net.
What kind of noise were you getting?
What symptoms did you see with the noise?
Does the car seem to perform better with the LS2 coils?
The noise is interference from other wiring that it crosses in the harness getting to the ECU. That is why VR sensor wiring MUST be shielded. This interference can cause random misfires or a loss of signal from the VR sensor. In my old system (MS2 w/ EDIS) I would occasionally get a random misfire when the engine was cold and under certain loads. 99% of the time, there was not an issue, but it was always frustrating that 1% of the time.
You can use the same trigger wheels with hall sensors (3 wire sensor) and it's un-effected by other wiring that crosses it. I have never had a misfire since moving to a hall sensor and the LS2 coils. Perfect signal, perfect spark.
QUOTE(crash914 @ Mar 17 2015, 01:47 PM)
I am also planning on adding resistor plugs to see if it eliminates some sensor signal noise..I wonder if using the ls2 coils adds noise?
I've run Denso Iridium IW20 plugs since moving to MS and have been VERY happy with their performance and longevity. They are worth the investment IMHO.
Any notable performance gains with the PS2 coils?
QUOTE(toon1 @ Mar 19 2015, 08:42 AM)
Any notable performance gains with the PS2 coils?
Yes. Trying to accelerate with that random misfire, when it would occur, SUCKED. Now it does not happen; EVER. Just nice acceleration as it should.
Any performance gains by switching from EDIS (wasted spark) to the LS2 COP (sequential spark) is likely only noticeable on a dyno. Since I currently have this on the 2056cc with a red-line set @ 5600rpms, I'm not turning the motor fast enough to really see the benefits of the hotter spark at high rpms that sequential COP provides by doubling the dwell time on the coils.
In all fairness, you could likely have a similar result by using a hall sensor with EDIS. If you're buying all the parts new, then IMHO you may as well go LS2 COP and be done with it since the cost is comparable.
Just as an information piece for you guys running wires that are being shielded, remember to ground only one end of the shield. If you ground both ends of the shield, it can become a current carrying source and the resulting EM field from that current can cause noise also. Why does grounding the wire at both ends do this? All ground points are not the same potential! A good insurance method is to run a dedicated LARGE ( like 2 or 4 gage ) ground wire around to where you need grounds for this system and hook all of your grounds to that.
Tom
Tom
I will look into the plugs, I have to use 10mm plugs so selection for resistor plugs is limited...it looks like I will have to add a quadspark module for the 4 logic level outputs as I only have the one with my older unit...
QUOTE
What mods did you have to do to go with the ls2 drivers?
Here is circuit I used to on MS board to trigger LS2 coils in wasted spark mode. The LS coils only require 5 volts to trigger. The coils have built-in ignitors. You need to supply a ground and +12V from battery ( I also used a relay) to the coil connector.
I also built a dedicated ignition board to help clean up the wiring.
Ok, got it...thanks!
Hi,
I have almost 250 miles on my MS setup. It really runs very well as is, but, now I am into the finer points of tuning.
I have an issue I have that I cannot figure out. Once the engine starts from cold and finds a nice idle after a minute ( I sometimes need to use very light throttle, to keep it going and bring rpm up), then for the next 5 minutes after engine is at a very stable idle speed, the engine surges to about 2500-3000 rpm and slowly come back down to idle speed (1000). This occurs whenever I touch the throttle a bit of store auto tune of burn some new data to the ecu.
Once the engine warms up, it does not behave like this and has a very stable idle and run near perfectly. I am running in closed loop idle.
Any help appreciated
I have almost 250 miles on my MS setup. It really runs very well as is, but, now I am into the finer points of tuning.
I have an issue I have that I cannot figure out. Once the engine starts from cold and finds a nice idle after a minute ( I sometimes need to use very light throttle, to keep it going and bring rpm up), then for the next 5 minutes after engine is at a very stable idle speed, the engine surges to about 2500-3000 rpm and slowly come back down to idle speed (1000). This occurs whenever I touch the throttle a bit of store auto tune of burn some new data to the ecu.
Once the engine warms up, it does not behave like this and has a very stable idle and run near perfectly. I am running in closed loop idle.
Any help appreciated
It's been 5 years and megasquirt project is still running. Not perfect, but quite good.
Enjoy the video below. You may want to start at the 1:45 time, pretty boring until then.
https://youtu.be/NTkOdxpMdq0
Enjoy :-)
Enjoy the video below. You may want to start at the 1:45 time, pretty boring until then.
https://youtu.be/NTkOdxpMdq0
Enjoy :-)
QUOTE(Michelj13 @ May 31 2015, 11:13 PM)
Once the engine warms up, it does not behave like this and has a very stable idle and run near perfectly. I am running in closed loop idle.
Are you running an idle control/bypass valve? Could be the logic on when it activates is borked. Or something in the warm up tables.
I do not run an idle control valve at all, and do not have that problem with Microsquirt.
Maybe try unplugging the control valve and seeing if that behavior persists.
GA
Yes I am running an idle control valve in closed loop mode. I agree, its some adjustment in the warm up. I ran in open loop just using the clt sensor data to control my idle valve for years and just recently have been successful with the closed loop idle mode.
The closed loop idle has been the most difficult part of megasquirt. I'm really close.
The closed loop idle has been the most difficult part of megasquirt. I'm really close.
QUOTE(Michelj13 @ May 31 2015, 09:13 PM)
Hi,
I have almost 250 miles on my MS setup. It really runs very well as is, but, now I am into the finer points of tuning.
I have an issue I have that I cannot figure out. Once the engine starts from cold and finds a nice idle after a minute ( I sometimes need to use very light throttle, to keep it going and bring rpm up), then for the next 5 minutes after engine is at a very stable idle speed, the engine surges to about 2500-3000 rpm and slowly come back down to idle speed (1000). This occurs whenever I touch the throttle a bit of store auto tune of burn some new data to the ecu.
Once the engine warms up, it does not behave like this and has a very stable idle and run near perfectly. I am running in closed loop idle.
Any help appreciated
If you post your current MSQ(tune file) and a datalog of the issue it might help identify what is going on. It could be the way your idle valve is setup but it could also be your warm up table, fuel table, ignition table, or any combination of all of those. To many variables to guess at, need data.
Yes, I'd be interested in seeing your MSQ as well. I've got a 2270 running Microsquirt, and I agree, closed loop idle tuning can be a challenge. I've been fiddling with it on and off for the last 6 months. There are so many variables to play with (cold advance, RPM targets and advance, general timing, PID values, VE table, etc. etc.), and because you only get one real cold start per day, it just takes a long time. My situation seems to be complicated by the fact that my idle AFR numbers don't seem usable. Right now I have the following:
1. Somewhat difficult cold start and initial idle (first 30 seconds or so) -- I've made progress here, but it's slow, and sometimes I think my PWM isn't big enough.
2. Closed loop idle generally steady around 1000 RPM, sometimes. But I can't figure out why other times I'll get a hanging idle up around 1400 that won't come down.
3. Otherwise it runs well and pulls strong and is a blast to drive.
A huge part of doing this is just learning more about how modern FI works. But in the unlikely event Jeff Bowlsby wanders into this thread, I'll admit that it's amazing how the Porsche / Bosch engineers made D-Jet work so well given the tools they had at the time, and how simple it really is. A well-tuned D-Jet car starts, idles, and runs nicely.
Would like to hear more about your setup/experience. At least a few more of us here have "jumped into the MS pool" since you built your setup.
1. Somewhat difficult cold start and initial idle (first 30 seconds or so) -- I've made progress here, but it's slow, and sometimes I think my PWM isn't big enough.
2. Closed loop idle generally steady around 1000 RPM, sometimes. But I can't figure out why other times I'll get a hanging idle up around 1400 that won't come down.
3. Otherwise it runs well and pulls strong and is a blast to drive.
A huge part of doing this is just learning more about how modern FI works. But in the unlikely event Jeff Bowlsby wanders into this thread, I'll admit that it's amazing how the Porsche / Bosch engineers made D-Jet work so well given the tools they had at the time, and how simple it really is. A well-tuned D-Jet car starts, idles, and runs nicely.
Would like to hear more about your setup/experience. At least a few more of us here have "jumped into the MS pool" since you built your setup.
Honestly, it's why I decided to "K.I.S.S." and not have any closed-loop idle control. Initial tune for hot/warm idle and then use the warm-up tables for cold stuff.
Sure, it's not a rock-solid idle, but it's still SCADS better than the D-Jet ever was.
After all, this ain't no Honda Accord...
Sure, it's not a rock-solid idle, but it's still SCADS better than the D-Jet ever was.
After all, this ain't no Honda Accord...
QUOTE(GregAmy @ Dec 2 2020, 12:35 PM)
Honestly, it's why I decided to "K.I.S.S." and not have any closed-loop idle control. Initial tune for hot/warm idle and then use the warm-up tables for cold stuff.
Sure, it's not a rock-solid idle, but it's still SCADS better than the D-Jet ever was.
After all, this ain't no Honda Accord...
C'mon, Greg, what else would I do with my time other than chase the perfect idle, right?
That's kind of what I was saying (again, I'll deny ever saying this if Jeff asks): my D-Jet with 1-2-3 dizzy was rock solid idle, with so many fewer variables.
Would love to get the closed loop idle just a little better.
I don't mind asking for help from someone who knows more than me.
Attached is my msq files and data log taken from posted video. I though it could help me watching the video and also studying the file on megalogviewer at same time.
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
then I will take it to a dyno to get it all dialed in. Promise to share the video too :-)
I don't mind asking for help from someone who knows more than me.
Attached is my msq files and data log taken from posted video. I though it could help me watching the video and also studying the file on megalogviewer at same time.
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
then I will take it to a dyno to get it all dialed in. Promise to share the video too :-)
Hi Rob,
a rock solid idle has nothing to do with closed loop idle settings. Idle must be rock solid before you switch over to closed loop.
The Idle Advance Setting is your friend here.
Take care,
Frank
Honestly, it's why I decided to "K.I.S.S." and not have any closed-loop idle control. Initial tune for hot/warm idle and then use the warm-up tables for cold stuff.
Sure, it's not a rock-solid idle, but it's still SCADS better than the D-Jet ever was.
After all, this ain't no Honda Accord...
C'mon, Greg, what else would I do with my time other than chase the perfect idle, right?
That's kind of what I was saying (again, I'll deny ever saying this if Jeff asks): my D-Jet with 1-2-3 dizzy was rock solid idle, with so many fewer variables.
a rock solid idle has nothing to do with closed loop idle settings. Idle must be rock solid before you switch over to closed loop.
The Idle Advance Setting is your friend here.
Take care,
Frank
QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Dec 2 2020, 05:45 PM)
QUOTE(GregAmy @ Dec 2 2020, 12:35 PM)
Honestly, it's why I decided to "K.I.S.S." and not have any closed-loop idle control. Initial tune for hot/warm idle and then use the warm-up tables for cold stuff.
Sure, it's not a rock-solid idle, but it's still SCADS better than the D-Jet ever was.
After all, this ain't no Honda Accord...
C'mon, Greg, what else would I do with my time other than chase the perfect idle, right?
That's kind of what I was saying (again, I'll deny ever saying this if Jeff asks): my D-Jet with 1-2-3 dizzy was rock solid idle, with so many fewer variables.
QUOTE(Frank S @ Dec 3 2020, 03:39 AM)
Hi Rob,
a rock solid idle has nothing to do with closed loop idle settings. Idle must be rock solid before you switch over to closed loop.
The Idle Advance Setting is your friend here.
Take care,
Frank
Hi @Frank S !
Yes, I think you're right. I guess "rock solid" is a somewhat imprecise term. Looking at the tach it looks fairly solid, but then you look at the datalog and you can see some bouncing around. I'm still playing with it, and I just started playing with idle advance settings a few days ago. So many variables and tools at one's disposal with this system. I always appreciate your input as well as others like James and Greg's.
@Michelj13 , thanks for posting those files. I looked them over and re-read your post from the beginning. We have similar setups (I have a Raby 9950), although your injectors are somewhat smaller. In any event, those files have given me some good info and ideas to try. I think I learn more from one good Type 4-specific MS thread here than I do from all the random threads on the Megasquirt forum. I'll post a tune and datalog file here soon as well.
Thanks again, and I apologize as I don't want to hijack your thread.
I haven't used the cam you are using, but I think your Idle is under advanced. I think it should be around 13 to 14° BTDC.
In the VE Table I would adjust all the cells around idle to the same value.
If you can't use the AFR reading, just go for the lowest MAP value you can reach by playing with fueling and ingnition settings but disable closed loop idle at that time.
Just do that adjustments with the fully warmed up engine.
Good idle is a combination of fueling, ignition timing and th extra air you add.
Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?
You are also loosing sync once within the short log.
Take care,
Frank
In the VE Table I would adjust all the cells around idle to the same value.
If you can't use the AFR reading, just go for the lowest MAP value you can reach by playing with fueling and ingnition settings but disable closed loop idle at that time.
Just do that adjustments with the fully warmed up engine.
Good idle is a combination of fueling, ignition timing and th extra air you add.
Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?
You are also loosing sync once within the short log.
Take care,
Frank
BeatNavy and Frank S,
Thank you for your inputs. Sometimes I just need a new direction to follow.
I would love to see your advance timing and AFR targets tables.
"Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?"
I don't know, need to look into that.
"You are also loosing sync once within the short log."
I have not examined my logs much. Where, what time was that?
I will report with my new observations soon.
Thank you for your inputs. Sometimes I just need a new direction to follow.
I would love to see your advance timing and AFR targets tables.
"Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?"
I don't know, need to look into that.
"You are also loosing sync once within the short log."
I have not examined my logs much. Where, what time was that?
I will report with my new observations soon.
QUOTE(Frank S @ Dec 3 2020, 10:43 AM)
I haven't used the cam you are using, but I think your Idle is under advanced. I think it should be around 13 to 14° BTDC.
In the VE Table I would adjust all the cells around idle to the same value.
If you can't use the AFR reading, just go for the lowest MAP value you can reach by playing with fueling and ingnition settings but disable closed loop idle at that time.
At idle I would say ignore the AFR readings even if you do have them, always tune idle to the lowest MAP reading. AFRs at idle are good for a point of reference but for the best idle you want to aim for the lowest MAP regardless. Dont try and tune to a specific AFR target there, let the engine tell you what it wants.
I find most type 4s i have tuned with megasquirt wind up being happy around 12 degrees advance at idle AFRs i have seen anywhere from the low 12s to the high 13s/low 14s depending on the motor.
With properly setup fuel and ignition tables closed loop idle control is unnecessary. Its cool to have, but not necessary and could be masking other issues.
Dont have my tuning laptop in front of me atm, ill take a look at the logs when i do.
QUOTE(Michelj13 @ Dec 4 2020, 07:52 AM)
BeatNavy and Frank S,
Thank you for your inputs. Sometimes I just need a new direction to follow.
I would love to see your advance timing and AFR targets tables.
"Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?"
I don't know, need to look into that.
"You are also loosing sync once within the short log."
I have not examined my logs much. Where, what time was that?
I will report with my new observations soon.
You are loosing sync at 340s and 420s in the log.
If this happens from time to tome during idle, the engine will probably continue to run, but it will also open up your idle vale to the starting condition value, which could lead to the problem you described earlier (cleean idle - hunting idle - clean idle again after a few s). So check your log for a sync loss in case you are experiencing that again.
You must fix the sync los problem!
QUOTE(JamesM @ Dec 4 2020, 03:28 AM)
QUOTE(Frank S @ Dec 3 2020, 10:43 AM)
I haven't used the cam you are using, but I think your Idle is under advanced. I think it should be around 13 to 14° BTDC.
In the VE Table I would adjust all the cells around idle to the same value.
If you can't use the AFR reading, just go for the lowest MAP value you can reach by playing with fueling and ingnition settings but disable closed loop idle at that time.
At idle I would say ignore the AFR readings even if you do have them, always tune idle to the lowest MAP reading. AFRs at idle are good for a point of reference but for the best idle you want to aim for the lowest MAP regardless. Dont try and tune to a specific AFR target there, let the engine tell you what it wants.
I find most type 4s i have tuned with megasquirt wind up being happy around 12 degrees advance at idle AFRs i have seen anywhere from the low 12s to the high 13s/low 14s depending on the motor.
With properly setup fuel and ignition tables closed loop idle control is unnecessary. Its cool to have, but not necessary and could be masking other issues.
Guys, this is very good information, but I do have a couple of questions for clarification if you would be so kind as to entertain:
1. I have heard you all talk about tuning idle to lowest possible MAP. It looks like both @Michelj13 and I, with our Raby cams perhaps, have real difficulty idling below 70 kpa. Having said that, I guess you have to FIRST pick a target idle RPM, right, and then tune the fuel cells in the area of the VE table there for lowest MAP, correct? I mean, I get a much lower MAP when I pump more fuel/air into it, but then I'm idling more around 1200 to 1400. Yes, my AFR idle numbers are useless.
2. In terms of timing, I have always heard that Type 4's like the 12-14 degrees BTDC, but I also seem to hear that in closed loop settings it's good to set the ignition table in the idle range to something significantly lower than that so the idle advance settings have "room to advance" for adding RPM. Is that fair?
As always, I appreciate the insight. I've attached my current tune and a 10-minute, fairly boring datalog of my cruise today just so Michelj13 can see it. It idled pretty well in CL and ran well, although I think I'm lean in spots. At some point I was running so rich that I think I'm erring on the side of lean now.
Michelj13, like you I have a little trouble with the first start of the day. I can't get the tune to where it fires right up, stays running without any pedal feathering, and the RPM climbs to a healthy 1200 or more. In my case it may initially stall after catching, and then the second time with a little pedal it'll gain some heat / momentum. At that point, with CLT in the 70 degree range or so, it will stay running but with an anemic idle in the 600 to 700 range. Once CLT hits about 85 or 90 it starts getting much more stable and strong.
I meant to do a datalog of a cold start this morning, but forgot. How often do you do that? Take your laptop out to the garage with some new variables changed all ready to gather some good data. Upload the tune and fire it up without starting a datalog
10-Minute Cruise with some idling at the end: Click to view attachment
My current tune: Click to view attachment
QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Dec 4 2020, 09:08 PM)
QUOTE(JamesM @ Dec 4 2020, 03:28 AM)
QUOTE(Frank S @ Dec 3 2020, 10:43 AM)
I haven't used the cam you are using, but I think your Idle is under advanced. I think it should be around 13 to 14° BTDC.
In the VE Table I would adjust all the cells around idle to the same value.
If you can't use the AFR reading, just go for the lowest MAP value you can reach by playing with fueling and ingnition settings but disable closed loop idle at that time.
At idle I would say ignore the AFR readings even if you do have them, always tune idle to the lowest MAP reading. AFRs at idle are good for a point of reference but for the best idle you want to aim for the lowest MAP regardless. Dont try and tune to a specific AFR target there, let the engine tell you what it wants.
I find most type 4s i have tuned with megasquirt wind up being happy around 12 degrees advance at idle AFRs i have seen anywhere from the low 12s to the high 13s/low 14s depending on the motor.
With properly setup fuel and ignition tables closed loop idle control is unnecessary. Its cool to have, but not necessary and could be masking other issues.
Guys, this is very good information, but I do have a couple of questions for clarification if you would be so kind as to entertain:
1. I have heard you all talk about tuning idle to lowest possible MAP. It looks like both @Michelj13 and I, with our Raby cams perhaps, have real difficulty idling below 70 kpa. Having said that, I guess you have to FIRST pick a target idle RPM, right, and then tune the fuel cells in the area of the VE table there for lowest MAP, correct? I mean, I get a much lower MAP when I pump more fuel/air into it, but then I'm idling more around 1200 to 1400. Yes, my AFR idle numbers are useless.
You need to ask Jake for what idle RPM the cam was designed.
At higher RPM you'll allways get lower MAP reading
If you change IGN timing or fueling you need also to adjust "air" to keep the desired RPM.
Just try something inbetween 1000 and 1050 RPM (just guessing)
2. In terms of timing, I have always heard that Type 4's like the 12-14 degrees BTDC, but I also seem to hear that in closed loop settings it's good to set the ignition table in the idle range to something significantly lower than that so the idle advance settings have "room to advance" for adding RPM. Is that fair?
That's fair but you don't need to add or pull so many degrees in timing. When I check your log, you are running between 4 and 6° Advance during idle...
As always, I appreciate the insight. I've attached my current tune and a 10-minute, fairly boring datalog of my cruise today just so Michelj13 can see it. It idled pretty well in CL and ran well, although I think I'm lean in spots. At some point I was running so rich that I think I'm erring on the side of lean now.
Michelj13, like you I have a little trouble with the first start of the day. I can't get the tune to where it fires right up, stays running without any pedal feathering, and the RPM climbs to a healthy 1200 or more. In my case it may initially stall after catching, and then the second time with a little pedal it'll gain some heat / momentum. At that point, with CLT in the 70 degree range or so, it will stay running but with an anemic idle in the 600 to 700 range. Once CLT hits about 85 or 90 it starts getting much more stable and strong.
You are actually pulling RPM/Air at low temps in your MSQ.
I meant to do a datalog of a cold start this morning, but forgot. How often do you do that? Take your laptop out to the garage with some new variables changed all ready to gather some good data. Upload the tune and fire it up without starting a datalog
10-Minute Cruise with some idling at the end: Click to view attachment
My current tune: Click to view attachment
QUOTE(Frank S @ Dec 4 2020, 02:18 AM)
QUOTE(Michelj13 @ Dec 4 2020, 07:52 AM)
BeatNavy and Frank S,
Thank you for your inputs. Sometimes I just need a new direction to follow.
I would love to see your advance timing and AFR targets tables.
"Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?"
I don't know, need to look into that.
"You are also loosing sync once within the short log."
I have not examined my logs much. Where, what time was that?
I will report with my new observations soon.
You are loosing sync at 340s and 420s in the log.
If this happens from time to tome during idle, the engine will probably continue to run, but it will also open up your idle vale to the starting condition value, which could lead to the problem you described earlier (cleean idle - hunting idle - clean idle again after a few s). So check your log for a sync loss in case you are experiencing that again.
You must fix the sync los problem!
I spent some time with the megalogviewer today (first time actually) and have identified the sync loss as Frank S pointed out (see pic). Now I have to fix this, but where to start? I tried to find the crank tooth log but discovered that only the high speed logger can log this information. Why could this not be included in the regular Data log? Can I run the High Speed logger together with the Datalog? How do I correlate both?
Anyway, I went for a short ride (10 min) to Lowes and there were no sync loses, engine started great, idled right away, and everything ran perfectly. I took another Datalog on the way back and logged 3 synch errors! I never noticed any issues while driving. All I can think of is that it may be heat related.
I have to say, that the megalogviewer is very interesting, the more time spent playing with it, the more I understand.
Click to view attachment
On loosing sync:
my tuning laptop will loose sync if the screen turns off or the machine goes into power saver mode. I actually had an entire log get corrupted one ride.
I have since set my laptop to not shut off the screen or go into powersaver mode for an hour. It seems to have worked.
Going over big bumps can also cause signal loss - really anything that gives the connectors a god jostle. My laptop uses USB C so there is nothing I can screw down, and PA is famous for its potholes... Sadly you just can't find a modern laptop with an honest to god 12 pin connector anymore - at least not an affordable one.
Zach
my tuning laptop will loose sync if the screen turns off or the machine goes into power saver mode. I actually had an entire log get corrupted one ride.
I have since set my laptop to not shut off the screen or go into powersaver mode for an hour. It seems to have worked.
Going over big bumps can also cause signal loss - really anything that gives the connectors a god jostle. My laptop uses USB C so there is nothing I can screw down, and PA is famous for its potholes... Sadly you just can't find a modern laptop with an honest to god 12 pin connector anymore - at least not an affordable one.
Zach
VaccaRabite, Well that is very interesting, never thought about that. Will keep that in mind, thanks.
QUOTE(VaccaRabite @ Dec 8 2020, 03:24 PM)
On loosing sync:
my tuning laptop will loose sync if the screen turns off or the machine goes into power saver mode. I actually had an entire log get corrupted one ride.
I have since set my laptop to not shut off the screen or go into powersaver mode for an hour. It seems to have worked.
Going over big bumps can also cause signal loss - really anything that gives the connectors a god jostle. My laptop uses USB C so there is nothing I can screw down, and PA is famous for its potholes... Sadly you just can't find a modern laptop with an honest to god 12 pin connector anymore - at least not an affordable one.
Zach
Good point, just checked his log again and Sync Los error 0, which is not a problem. However, I don't see this within my installation.
Frank
QUOTE(Michelj13 @ Dec 7 2020, 10:40 PM)
QUOTE(Frank S @ Dec 4 2020, 02:18 AM)
QUOTE(Michelj13 @ Dec 4 2020, 07:52 AM)
BeatNavy and Frank S,
Thank you for your inputs. Sometimes I just need a new direction to follow.
I would love to see your advance timing and AFR targets tables.
"Why are you pulling fuel in the WUE table below 100%?"
I don't know, need to look into that.
"You are also loosing sync once within the short log."
I have not examined my logs much. Where, what time was that?
I will report with my new observations soon.
You are loosing sync at 340s and 420s in the log.
If this happens from time to tome during idle, the engine will probably continue to run, but it will also open up your idle vale to the starting condition value, which could lead to the problem you described earlier (cleean idle - hunting idle - clean idle again after a few s). So check your log for a sync loss in case you are experiencing that again.
You must fix the sync los problem!
I spent some time with the megalogviewer today (first time actually) and have identified the sync loss as Frank S pointed out (see pic). Now I have to fix this, but where to start? I tried to find the crank tooth log but discovered that only the high speed logger can log this information. Why could this not be included in the regular Data log? Can I run the High Speed logger together with the Datalog? How do I correlate both?
Anyway, I went for a short ride (10 min) to Lowes and there were no sync loses, engine started great, idled right away, and everything ran perfectly. I took another Datalog on the way back and logged 3 synch errors! I never noticed any issues while driving. All I can think of is that it may be heat related.
I have to say, that the megalogviewer is very interesting, the more time spent playing with it, the more I understand.
Click to view attachment
Review your log again. Your idle advance settings are killing you with retarded timing all over the place at low TPS% below 3000 RPM. Why would you retard your timing to
12° ATDC?
Frank
That is interesting. Travelling for work, will not get back to it until weekend.
So... I have to admit, I don't know much about any of this, but trying to learn... Thanks for posting your files so I can look at some real data.
Something to try.... In the "idle advance settings" try turning off "adaptive"... I know you're trying to get a good idle, but I think that table is driving the strangeness in idle ignition timing.
What I don't understand is why "SPK: Idle Correction Advance" log only shows zero.... so, maybe it's not the problem.... I don't know.
Something to try.... In the "idle advance settings" try turning off "adaptive"... I know you're trying to get a good idle, but I think that table is driving the strangeness in idle ignition timing.
What I don't understand is why "SPK: Idle Correction Advance" log only shows zero.... so, maybe it's not the problem.... I don't know.
My latest video. I will answer any question, all you have to do is ask. Thanks
https://youtu.be/sXMhXcG6sBs
You need to watch until the end where I visit my friend Carlos where he is rebuilding his 914 engine. It's a camshaft not crankshaft as I said in the video.
https://youtu.be/sXMhXcG6sBs
You need to watch until the end where I visit my friend Carlos where he is rebuilding his 914 engine. It's a camshaft not crankshaft as I said in the video.
Congrats on your MS build. It looks to drive really nice. That 2270 does it run hot? Do you need any additional oil cooling for it? Hope to see it in person someday around Torrance.
If only I can get started on my Microsquirt build.
Best,
Ted
Sorry for delay in responding. Been fighting cancer, actually driving myself to radiation therapy in my 914. The highlight of my day!
I get a thumbs up or a nice car comment at least once a week. What else can you drive and get that kind of reaction?
Ted, to answer your question, I am not running an external oil cooler. I worried about that before the build, so I installed oil and head temp gauges to monitor. I think it is not necessary, but, a lot of it depends on your CR. I run about 7.5 to 1.
I get a thumbs up or a nice car comment at least once a week. What else can you drive and get that kind of reaction?
Ted, to answer your question, I am not running an external oil cooler. I worried about that before the build, so I installed oil and head temp gauges to monitor. I think it is not necessary, but, a lot of it depends on your CR. I run about 7.5 to 1.
I think that was you, your engine sounded pretty healthy at the intersection of Narborne and Lomita 2 days ago.
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