Megasquirt Project, .....IT RUNS ! Options

[rwilner]

Some good progress over the last few weeks. Finally got the hard lines throught the tunnel installed, along with fuel pump under tank with wiring to the relay board. The fuel filter secured to the firewall and short lines going up to the engine bay. Pulled carbs, manifolds and linkage out too. Photos coming shortly.

I spent some time playing with the idle valve. I am driving it with a TIP 120 transistor. Lots to learn with this selecting frequency, duty cycle, figuring what is normal and inverted, etc.

Its almost time to address the VE table. Does anyone have a msq file I could use as a baseline to tune my 2270?

Check out the last post in the thread in my signature -- it's for a 2.0, but should get your engine running and be a starting point for tuning.

[McMark]

The MSQ stores all the settings, so if you've set up sensor parameters, loading a different MSQ will overwrite those changes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[Michelj13]

The MSQ stores all the settings, so if you've set up sensor parameters, loading a different MSQ will overwrite those changes.

Thanks for that heads up info. I did not realize this. So, I should be taking notes of all my current setups, load the "rwilner" 's MSQ file, then modify the settings for my sensors etc.

Sounds pretty straight forward. We will see... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[McMark]

Notes are always good anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The MSQ is just a text file. You can open it in a word processes and find the VE table section, then copy and paste into your MSQ. BUT, you must take care not to change the format and order of the file. If you add an extra return/line or delete a comma, it will break the MSQ (keep backups before playing).

[aircooledtechguy]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Save a copy of the MSQ after you're done making changes at regular intervals by clicking the "Save As" under the "File" menu. It should automatically name it with the date and time unless you give it a specific name. This is key because it's like a library back in time and allows you to easily identify an earlier tune even in the same day.

If I try tuning experiments over a few days that don't work as I would like; no big deal. I just flash in the tune from before I made all the experimental changes and I'm right back where I started. This is one of the best parts of MS; if you don;t like the changes, just instantly go back to what worked before and try a different direction.

[Michelj13]

I am comparing "rwilner"s msq file with mine and there are many format differences. My file is much largerat 86KB vs 28KB. This can possibly be explained by the microsquirt vs megasquirt v3, I don't really know.

Looking at some of the tables in each file, the afr table is straightforward, I can just cut and paste.

name="afrTable1" rows="12" units="AFR">

, and

name="afrTable2" rows="12" units="AFR">

The same is not that clear with the advance tables. Interestingly, my file had 3 have advance tables vs just the one in rwilner's.

When I compared the VE tables, mine had rows of 16 vs rwilner's 12 rows.

I don't really have a good understanding on all the tables, etc yet, so I think I would like to keep looking for a file that more closely resembles mine.

[Michelj13]

Just a few progress photos. I invite all comments (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Michelj13]

I had the whole day from 8 am to 5 pm to work on my project. I got the manifolds, TB, and all the wiring done.

Well, the engine started right up and all sensors appeared to be reading something.
However, after the initial start up, the revs went past 4k before I turned off the ignition. I discovered the TPS was wired incorrectly. I fixed that, calibrated the TPS and the engine started up again. The idle then settled at 2600. I disconnected my fidle valve (it is normally closed), reduced the advance in the table and now idle is about 1200. TB is closed, so not sure where air is coming from. Also, it appears the engine speed does not change when I disconnect the #4 ignition coil and injector. I will need to check these.

Anyway, I ran out of gas, losing my sunlight> It was time to stop, and clean up. It really was a Good Day! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I bought the full version of TS back in Jan 2012. Does it expire?

I would appreciate any help in progressing from this point.

Yeh me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)

Photos coming soon.

Michel

[Mike Bellis]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/piratenanner.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)

[FourBlades]

Nice progress! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

You will get it set up with all the help here.

John

[wndsrfr]

I had the whole day from 8 am to 5 pm to work on my project. I got the manifolds, TB, and all the wiring done.

Well, the engine started right up and all sensors appeared to be reading something.
However, after the initial start up, the revs went past 4k before I turned off the ignition. I discovered the TPS was wired incorrectly. I fixed that, calibrated the TPS and the engine started up again. The idle then settled at 2600. I disconnected my fidle valve (it is normally closed), reduced the advance in the table and now idle is about 1200. TB is closed, so not sure where air is coming from. Also, it appears the engine speed does not change when I disconnect the #4 ignition coil and injector. I will need to check these.

Anyway, I ran out of gas, losing my sunlight> It was time to stop, and clean up. It really was a Good Day! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I bought the full version of TS back in Jan 2012. Does it expire?

I would appreciate any help in progressing from this point.

Yeh me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)

Photos coming soon.

Michel

Wow...first start is always a nail-biter with new injection--congrats!

A couple of things come to mind:
1. What are the A/F R's at idle? It doesn't take much air at all & I'm going to bet it's quite lean.
2. How much advance do you have in at 1000, 1500, 2000 RPM? I'm at 14, 15 & 21 at those speeds on my SDS system.
3. I'm assuming you're on MAP sensing for fueling--what vacuum reading are you seeing at idle? Do you have a "wild" cam in there?

This is gonna be fun....

[Michelj13]

This weekend, I had chance to spend a couple of hours tuning, but, no real progress to report. I played aroud with the ignition timing, VE generator, AFR table.

I think there is something really wrong somewhere. At 1200 RPM, with measured timing of 15 degrees (with respect to TDC fan marking), the engine has no torque to pull the car forward even slipping the clutch is 1st gear. If I bump the timing reference at trigger wheel 10 degrees, which raises RPM to 3000, there is then enough torque to pull car forward.

To answer wndsrfr 's questions.

1. I think it was around 12.5, but, I need to recheck
2. I set my advance like your SDS system with no variation WRT load
3. I think it was 120%, but, will need to check that also

The cam is a Jake Raby 9530. Not sure how wild it is and it did not come with a card. Jake told me, the 9530 cam nets .465 lift at the intake valve, and about .450 on the exhaust.

I will get more accurate info and I also need to figure out how to use the log feature of TunerStudio.

I am thinking, that I may need to give full advance by 2000 rpm for this to work!

[JamesM]

Step 1: Make sure you are firing on all 4. No point in trying to tune anything if you have a clogged/bad injector or bad coil.

Step 2: Make sure the timing table you are starting with makes sense. Even better, post it here. I find it easiest to start with a table that ignores all vacuum advance/retard and then work from there. Just map out what a mechnical advance only dizzy would do, say idle starting at somewhere from 0-10 deg and progressing up to 27-28 deg around 3-3.2k, that should be a good place to start.
Step 2b:SANITY CHECK, in Tuner Studio, make sure ALL sensors are reporting expected values. IAT and CHT should show roughly ambient temp before starting, TPS should reflect throttle position

Step 3: Tune idle for max vacuum. Play with the fueling and take note of the changes it is having on manifold vaccum, and shoot for the higest vaccum you can get. This should help with your torque off idle.

Step 4: Auto tune is your friend here. Set up your target AFR table IGNORE EVERYTHING you have read in MS documents abount AFR target numbers, starting out all your AFR targets are going to be between 13.5-12.5:1. You can play with leaning these out later, but to start this is where you want to be. Once the targets are in place start up the car, let it warm up as much as it can, turn on autotune in TS and then tune the no load section of the table. Basically from idle slowly rev up the engine and hold it at different RPMs while autotune does its thing. If it is missfiring due to being to lean or rich you may need to tweak it manually as the O2 sensor wont know whats going on. Do this until you can hold the engine at any RPM in neutral and it runs smooth as butter, most likley somewhere in the mid 13:1 AFR range.

Step 5: From here do a sanity check on your fuel map. Looking at the cells that have already been tuned using auto tune, as load and RPM increase so should the fuel. If for some reason you see the fuel values in the higher load bins to be less then the ones you just tuned then you can pretty much assume they wont work well. If nothing stands out as being obviously wrong then move on to the next step of running autotune at light loads the same way you just did no load, and repeate the process. Autotune - sanity check - Autotune slightly more load - sanity check -etc

obviously there is going to be a lot more to getting it fully dialed in, but this should get you a good driveable base map to start from.

Post your current MSQ and/or some datalogs and we can see if anything is standing out as being off.

-James

[DBCooper]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/i379.photobucket.com-2618-1360074128.1.jpg)

[Michelj13]

James,

Step 1: I have checked that all cylinders are firing. However, when I pulled coil connections, there is more of a change when pulling 3 and 1 than 2 and 4. I will need to recheck this. I have a friend that has a compression checker that I need to invite over. I was thinking this may have something to do with injector pairing?

Step 2: I tried to do this, see photo, but my idle advance may be too high. All sensors read what I think they should including TPS.

Step 3: “Tune idle for max vacuum.” and “ Play with the fueling” . Those are new concepts for me. I need to keep this in mind. Thanks for pointing this out.

Step 4 and 5: Current AFR and VE tables attached. “IGNORE EVERYTHING you have read in MS documents” Wow, as I have said in my videos, I have often found it very difficult to get exactly the info I needed to get this Megasquirt project up and rolling. Everyone’s configuration is different and the info on the internet spans a long period of time where many things keep changing for many reasons. James, you have given me a lot to chew on here 

I could not attach is my current MSQ (not sure why as I have see some posted?). I can email it to you. Feel free to modify, comment or suggest anything. I also want to learn how to use the logger.

Thank you for your input, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Michel

[jpnovak]

WTF? Why do you have an rpm values that go from 700 to 1100 and back down to 400 and then jump to 2000 rpm?

No wonder the car does not idle. Your ECU is confused since you have two 700 rpm columns.

This needs to be fixed now. Start about 100 rpm below your expected idle speed and then make smooth even steps all the way to redline.

Tuning fuel for maximum vacuum at idle. This just means add or remove fuel (increase/decrease VE value) until your MAP value is at its lowest. On the cars I tune this usually means an AFR about 12.8 or so. Then you go back and change timing until the MAP value stablizes.

Starting the car is a milestone for sure. Now you just need to start the tuning process. Think of it as changing carb jets with your fingertips.

[JamesM]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) x2, getting the engine started the first time is one of the hardest parts, and yeah there is a lot of sorting out to do here with those tables. I am guessing this may be a result of trying to import other peoples tables from different code versions (lower resolution) into yours.


As for #1 I am guessing that you have cyl 1 and 3 wired on the same injection bank. If this is indeed the case then 2 things come to my mind as a potential source of that problem either A. Wiring issue or B. some versions of the MS code allow you to fuel each injector bank using different tables, if you had this enabled with different tables for each bank then the fueling differences would account for why one bank has more of an effect then the other.

#2 good chance that it is, a copy of your MSQ and some data logs would help, ill PM you my email address

#3, Yup as was stated by others, at idle try adjusting your fuel up or down to achieve the lowest manifold pressure (highest vacuum)

#4 Aside from the wacky RPM bins your AFR target numbers don't look to bad though for an NA motor you probably don't need to go any richer then 12.5:1 at full load. Should be good enough to get you driving with autotune anyways.


From what you have shown so far I would say the first thing you need to do is fix your RPM bins on all your tables. They should go from low to high and be no duplicate bins. Also you probably dont need the sort of resolution down low that having bins at 400, 500, 700 and 900 would provide. Honestly you could make it run well on 1/4 the resolution that table provides, but we will work with what you have.

I will have to get out my laptop and start searching for settings that might give you greef, its been a while since I have been in Tunerstudio and dont remember everything off the top of my head.

[JamesM]

A couple things I might recommending changing on your timing table. First is that everything after 3100 where you hit max advance is just wasted resolution. You may want to move your 3100 bin further to the right and add some more resolution into the middle where it will actually make a difference. Second is that you probably are a little over advanced at idle. What can happen is that you get sort of a runaway condition where the over advanced condition speeds up the idle into the next bin, which has even higher advance and speeds it up even more. Increasing the resolution down in the lower ranges and lowering the advance in all bins below 1500 will probably help bring your idle speed down

[Mike Bellis]

The ECU looks at all surrounding blocks. Not just the one is is running in. It then uses an algorithm to extrapolate where to go next.

With your map RPM's all over the place, the ECU will never run correctly. You need to get the RPM's in chronological order before you do anything else.

[aircooledtechguy]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) with everything above.

My VE table is about 25-30 LOWER on almost all values. ie, my idle on the ve is around 22 @ 900rpms. I would recommend highlighting all cells and lowering them all by around 20-25 and then run autotune. As you are right now, you will be pig-rich everywhere which will make it run poorly.