California Legality of 914 engine swap Options

[Allan]

A week ago I went to the DMV with the pink on a '75 roller I got for free. No smog cert. just what I thought it was worth (500.00), and $65.00 later I had current tags until Oct. 2005!

[lapuwali]

The Cap'n has it correct according to my reading of the law (not a lawyer).

The emissions regs currently state 1975 and older and you're off the hook for testing completely. However, the bit on engine swaps (a completely different section of the law from the emissions regs) states that if the year of the engine is newer than the year of the chassis, the engine year is the one that counts for emissions, and all of the emissions equipment that came with the engine must be present and functioning in the new chassis. There's a complete procedure for getting this tested at a BAR referee station the first time you license the car after the swap. Put a 1980 engine in a 1970 chassis and you've now legally produced a 1980 car as far as the emissions are concerned. The referee station gives you paperwork to that effect and from that point forward you have a 1980 whatsit, subject to all of the smog testing for a 1980 car.

Now, from a practical standpoint, since pre-76 cars aren't regularly tested, you could put a brand new Boxster engine in a 914, with Webers replacing the EFI and no catalyst, and you'd probably get away with it indefinitely. You can usually get away with cheating on your taxes for a good long while, too. And I'm sure all of us pay strict attention to posted speed limits at all times...

Note that there's a section in the Health & Safety regulations (can't remember the number off the top of my head), that states that CARB reserves the right to backdate some emissions regulations all the way to 1958. I have no idea if this has ever been enforced, or even discussed seriously, but the section is there if you do a search on the full H&S statute. The current emissions laws only exempt you from the current testing. If some new test is dreamed up later (roadside or otherwise), I'm sure you could be subject to it, and I'm sure some significant number of people would be caught out by it, esp. those with carbs in place of EFI on a 914.

So, put a pre-smog V8 or what have you in a 914, and you're still more or less safe. It's an open question if someone could tell that your engine is or isn't pre-smog (esp. for something like a small-block).

[skline]

The engine I put in is around a 1966 or 67 I think, its a 283. the car is a 74. I have not gone to register it yet which is the last piece of this puzzle. I may go over to AAA today and see what the story is and how much it will cost me. The last time the car was registered was in 2000. So it is still in the computers at the DMV. I will not be mentioning the fact that I have installed a Chevy V8 engine into this car. I will just tell them I have been working on it restoring it for the past 2 years and see what happens.

[andys]

Yes, but if the car has been off the DMVs books for a while, the new title requires the engine number.

Good point. I have not had to deal with that.

-Jeff

That was NOT my experience. The '75 I bought was last registered in 1985, and stored in a garage since. Title and registration was completely off the books with no existing record or evidence at all, zero. I submitted the title from the PO to the Auto Club, they put in a request for title, they witnessed the VIN, I paid sales tax, license fee, a $12.00 title origination fee (or something like that), and walked out with plates and '04 tag. No engine number was asked for nor required for the transfer of title or licensing. It was incredibly easy.

Andy

[Steve Thacker]

I have to go with Jake on this one. The weather is primo out there and you have teeners out the ying yang, but the governmental regulations on you guys sounds like nothing but a money hunt. They could give a rats ass about air quality, thats a tree hugger's thing. Since your new gov took over it sounds like after a while we may end up with your cars hitting the for sale block soon. I'd say you guys get a petition going and face those over zealous money grubbing govenment people and put them in their place. Sounds like a damn communist state from what I'm reading.

[bob91403]

Not too bad. He just got his Hummer converted to hydrogen. I wouldn't mind owning a hydrogen powered teener. As long as there's some incentive to convert it.

[anthony]

Sounds like a damn communist state from what I'm reading.

I'm glad that is the perception of California. Please don't move here. We already have enough of your kind (people from the midwest). Thank you!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[bob91403]

Sounds like a damn communist state from what I'm reading.

I'm glad that is the perception of California. Please don't move here. We already have enough of your kind (people from the midwest). Thank you!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Yeah, every year we get an influx of 10K people. It's that damned Rose Parade. While the rest of the country is freezing their nuts off, we're out here on January 1st wearing sweaters because it's cold outside (sunny and 68'). Don't come here. Every ten years you get woke up by an earthquake. You can go surfing on the sidewalks, and the chimneys fall down. Gee, sounds real scary compared to a flood, a hurricane, or a tornado. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bootyshake.gif)

[skline]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) In fact, come to visit us for the WCC 05 and take a few home with you when you leave. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[lapuwali]

I lived in the Midwest for 15 years. The regulations vary wildly from place to place, even within a given state.

For example, when I left St. Louis 10 years ago, the law at the time required a safety AND emissions inspection EVERY YEAR (CA is every other year), and there was no cutoff for old cars (until 1968, when it's only a safety inspection). The safety inspection checks things like brakes, steering, lights, etc. Emissions was a tailpipe only test. I'm told this has since changed, but I've heard conflicting reports about whether it's more lax, or tighter. Meanwhile, my father, in rural Missouri, has no inspection at all, of any kind, at any time.

Under the law that existed 10 years ago, it was actually HARDER to license a 914 in MO than it is now in CA. And CA is not the toughest anymore. AZ still requires smog checks on all cars back to 1968, and it's a visual test, just like CA. It's considerably harder to own a 914 in AZ than in CA.

Meanwhile, in CA, yes, the weather is very nice. No salt on the roads and a culture devoted to it means seeing 30 year old cars is something that happens several times a day, every day. My daily driver was made in 1967, and no one bats an eyelash at it here, or the fact that I drive it every day. There are six significant shops in the SF Bay Area alone that handle Alfa Romeo, a marque that hasn't sold a car in the US since 1994, and rarely sold more than 1000 a year at their best (viz, there are fewer Alfas in the US than 914s...). We do pay for all of this niceness with some regulations that don't exist elsewhere, but more directly with high prices for everything, esp. housing. There are good reasons to live here, and good reasons to live elsewhere.

[wiredwrx]

Why the F@%K would you tell anything like this to the DMV ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)
If it runs good and passes smog (if it's required) then who cares? The smog monkeys will never know what's in your engine as long as they see the timing where it should be and the required equipment/hoses/ cat pipe, ect... on their visual inspection. Never volunteer any information like that unless of course it's obvious like a V-8 in a 914 instead of the 1.7L that is on the title.
Good Luck!

To do it legally.

I am asking if there is a legal way, or what are the legalities associated with it.

And in califonia, when you register a car, they check all the proper locations for the proper VINs.

Michael

[wiredwrx]

Why the F@%K would you tell anything like this to the DMV ?

it could be a costly mistake that could bite one in the ass later on down the road....I've heard rumors of roadside smog testing, but so far it's only been a rumor (AFAIK)

Well, it is not a rumor. There are roadside testing going on. The only dispute it whether people are being cited, or having issues with re registration if they are deemed a gross polluter. The DMV claimms that it is for statistical analysis right now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) That has yet to be seen, although, I have a friend, who has a friend YADA YADA YADA, who claimed he got a ticket. I asked for proof, and have yet to see it, so I highly doubt he was cited, but, I guess it is possible.

Michael

[Mueller]

so what engine choices have you made for your conversion?

[wiredwrx]

It is the seller's responsibility to get the thing smogged.

Really? thats wierd, sell a car "as is"

if the car has passed it yearly smog then all should be good? or is this just some wierd Cali law? If you buy the a car within that period, the inspection is still good? or am I missing something?


And cant you sell a car in Cali "As is"? state that on you bill of sale..

AS IS has nothing to do with smog. As Is a legal term that is used to limit or eliminate any warranties, either implied or expressed. (Some implied warranties can not be disclaimed)

Here is my question. Yes, if the car passed for years, it will probably pass again. But, I want to put a different engine in. I know that in order to do that legally, you have to put in a later engine year, with ALL the emmissions control devices, including the pressurized gas tank. That is a pain in the butt. However, if I put in a later engine, but do away with the cats/fuel tank, while it is legal to have the engine in the car, if I still have to pass smog, I might have a problem. If I have to go to the ref, who will check if I have the proper gas tank and cats, that is a problem also. So, my question is, does a pre 1975 or whatever year it is, have to go to the ref for an engine swap, and does it have to go for emmissions testing?

Michael

[lapuwali]

And in califonia, when you register a car, they check all the proper locations for the proper VINs.

Uh, no. This is from someone who's registered, oh, 15 cars or so in California at, oh, 8 different DMV offices. They look at the one VIN plate on the A pillar. If you have a car that's old enough that the VIN isn't there, they send you to the CHP to have the VIN verified. I've only done the CHP thing once, but the process was that I showed the officer where the VIN was (on the firewall, in this case), showed him how on previous similar cars the CA VIN had been constructed by taking the model number on line 1 of the plate and the serial number on line 2 of the plate (Australian-built '64 Mini). He nodded, saying it made sense, wrote that number down, bullshitted for awhile about the car (gee, I didn't know right hand drive was legal here...), then handed over the signed, stamped paper.

They do not check a 914 for the VINs stamped elsewhere on the body, at least not with any regularity. They *MIGHT*, if they happen to know where they are, but they don't check it normally. If the A-pillar plate matches what you say it says on the paper, you're done.

This really brings up the issue of "what's the law?" v. "what's actually enforced?", which are two entirely different things.

[lapuwali]

But, I want to put a different engine in. I know that in order to do that legally, you have to put in a later engine year,

No. You can put in an engine from the same year as the chassis, if it's available. If you put in an earlier engine, you have to get the engine to pass the emissions for the year of the chassis. If the chassis is pre-smog, and the engine is pre-smog, no problem. If the chassis is pre-smog, and the engine is post-smog, then you have to change things, or neglect to inform the DMV.

Now, it's something of an open question if, after doing an engine swap, you're legally obligated to go to a ref station for checking if both engine and chassis are pre-smog. However, if you use, for example, a '73 engine in a '73 chassis, getting the engine to meet emissions shouldn't be a problem. No cat required, and other than ensuring that you're using the correct fuel system (can't use carbs if both engine AND chassis used FI originally). Basically just breathers, a canister, and the tailpipe test. The law is completely unclear on whether you need to visit a ref at all in this case.

If the engine you want is only available post-smog, then you have something of a dilemma.

[Dad Roberts]

Michael...When I decided in 93 to get my 1968 V8 VW smogged,"legally", I made an appointment with a referee. At that time, 1966 and later had to be smogged. My egine setup at that time was the 455 Olds, with dual point aftermarket dizzy, hi-rise and factory Quadrajet, aftermarket aircleaner. The ref wanted to know the year of the engine, I fudged and told him it was a 72. "If" he checked the serial number of the motor he did a bad job, it is a 76 motor. All this means that at that time it had to pass a visual, and a sniffer. Mine didn't pass the visual, only because of the dizzy, and he didn't like my PCV setup ( it worked fine, even he acknowledged that). He went ahead and sniffed it and it passed, all I had to do was go to Pepboys and buy a $29.95 single point dizzy, drop it in( not even putting a light on it) and change my PCV to his liking. He checked everything again, on a later visit, and I got my certification tag ( it's still on the car ). He told me....OK....now take it home and put everything back.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . Little did he know, I was changing over to the tunnelram, and 2 four setup.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ..(Check "Dads' 914 will have to wait", posted yesterday. I sold the car in 1995 because the car was STILL under the smog laws, and I didn't want to change everything again. There were a few more reasons for selling, but not important here. I recently got the car back from outta state. They..( AAA ) checked the Vin number on the car against the title and checked nothing else. OBVIOUSLY....they had no problem seeing the 455 Olds stickin up back there. Case closed.....pay my fees, and I was outta there. I also understand there are roadside sniffing setups goig on......have yet to experience one, so I can't comment. Hope this helps.....Dad (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[morph]

thank god i dont have to deal with that kinda crap.
i dont think i could drive any car ive ever owned in cali.

[Steve]

When I registered my 75 with a 3.2 six in it they only looked at the vins and didn't even care what motor was in it.
They did not ask for a smog certificate or anything else.

Steve