Hello All,

I am looking for people, specifically in California, who have gone through the process of registering, insuring, and smog testing (If it is needed) a 914 with an engine swap.

I recently read about the change to law that says post 1975 cars, no matter how old are not smog exempt, so I plan on getting a pre 1975, or whatever year I need to get, to avoid that. But, what about registering the car. Do I have to see the state ref before I can get the registration. Do I even need to go to the State ref to get signed off on. DO I have to notify the DMV of the engine swap (I have a friend doing an engine swap, and his research has determined that the DMV must be notified of the engine swap)

I am looking for any information people have.

Thanx
Michael

I had an issue with an engine swap in a VW Bus several years ago while Smog II was in effect. Back then no way could you get away without having the engine meet smog requirements. My Bus was classified as a "gross polluter" and I could not register it. Smog II has since been replealed and all I had to do was go to the DMV and re-register it. No inspection, questions, nada. I don't think anything has changed that would make what I did any different, as long as the car is pre '75 (or is it pre '76?).

-Jeff

"legally", one is supposed to only replace the motor with the same year or newer engine and keep everything smog related to the donor motor vehicle (meaning swapping in a brand new '04 motor would be a major PITA due to the OBD II computer stuff and the pressurized gas tank)...once the swap is done, you get the car signed off at a referee station...

car engines only in car, truck motors are different

I only know of one person to do this, and there are a lot of swaps out there.....give the state some time, I'm sure they will be cracking down on us "converters" as well

ideally, you want to get a car that you can easily register right now, avoid anything that'll require special paperwork (like a car that has been abandoned or no paperwork at all)

anyone know where to find the correct information "in print" and not on the internet??

Why the F@%K would you tell anything like this to the DMV ?
If it runs good and passes smog (if it's required) then who cares? The smog monkeys will never know what's in your engine as long as they see the timing where it should be and the required equipment/hoses/ cat pipe, ect... on their visual inspection. Never volunteer any information like that unless of course it's obvious like a V-8 in a 914 instead of the 1.7L that is on the title.
Good Luck!

it could be a costly mistake that could bite one in the ass later on down the road....I've heard rumors of roadside smog testing, but so far it's only been a rumor (AFAIK)

Never volunteer information. Get a '75 or earlier that runs. It is the seller's responsibility to get the thing smogged.

10 years ago there was some sort of pilot program for roadside testing. Occasionally I'd see a white van on the side of a freeway on-ramp with some little gizmo set up at tailpipe height. I only saw it a dozen times. If I see it again, I'll have an accidental door-latch failure.

A lot of times, when the DMV inspects a vehicle, they have no friggin' idea what they're looking at. I doubt they'd know a six when they saw it, or that they'd have the brains to count the plug wires. They do want to see the engines serial number for the record. If the car says it's a four, and you put in a bigger four, no problem. Technically putting carbs on a four is illegal.(Your not allowed to modify the fuel or smog system from OEM.) If it says CHEVROLET on the valve cover, that might be trouble. Don't volunteer any information, they'll never know.

Really? thats wierd, sell a car "as is"

if the car has passed it yearly smog then all should be good? or is this just some wierd Cali law? If you buy the a car within that period, the inspection is still good? or am I missing something?


And cant you sell a car in Cali "As is"? state that on you bill of sale..

legally it is the sellers resp. to get the car smogged, even with a "sold as is", one can take the seller to court...

If the car is '76 or later, it must pass smog to be registered. You're not allowed to sell your headache to someone else. If it won't pass, you can't sell it, except as salvage.

another "great" California thing...even by filling out a "release of liability" form, you are not off the hook until the new owner registers the car...which means that you could be held liable if the new owner does something "stupid" between the time you sold the car and the time he registers it (if he ever does)

The only way to really beat the system is to move to another state- Thats why I didn't stay in Cali....

Nice weather, but man do you have to pay the price to get it!

I bought a '75 car, and registered it through the Auto Club. No hassles at all. They only needed to witness the car for the Vin. That's it. '75 is smog exempt.

Andy

....yes, that is correct, however, if you put a different engine in it, it might not be "smog" legal anymore depending on the engine one puts in....a lot of people are going to be screwed if the laws change (again)

I think this applies to engine swaps in our cars:

4161. (a) Whenever a motor vehicle engine or motor is installed, except temporarily, in a motor vehicle which is identified on the ownership and registration certificates by motor or engine number or by both the motor and frame numbers and subject to registration under this code, the owner of the motor vehicle shall, within 10 days thereafter, give notice to the department upon a form furnished by it containing a description of the motor vehicle engine or motor installed, including any identifying number thereon and the date of the installation. The owner of the motor vehicle shall also submit to the department with the notice the certificate of ownership and registration card covering the motor vehicle in which the motor vehicle engine or motor is installed and evidence of ownership covering the new or used motor vehicle engine or motor installed and such other documents as may be required by the department.

We don't register our cars using the engine number so you can put anything you want in it. DMV does not care. All rules will continue to apply to the year of your car.

Here is the DMV link:

CA DMV 4161

-Jeff

In CA, the smog goes with the year of the car or engine, which ever is newer. If your car doesn't need a smog, you're still supposed to have and maintain the emissions equipment, but are not required to have it tested, even on transfer. If you bring in a car from out of state, DMV needs to see the car to verify the VIN, but they don't do ANYTHING with the emissions equipment. If you do a "revived junk", a car from a wreck or a boneyard, you have to get a brake and light inspection cert, as well as a smog test if it's a 1976 or newer. Smog tests in CA may be either static or on a dyno, depending on where you register the car, and both include what is supposed to be a detailed check of the presence and function of ALL required emissions related equipment. If you do an engine swap on a newer car, the engine must meet the specs of the year it was made and be as new or newer than the car. So, if you install an engine that obviously didn't come in the car, it has to meet the complete emissions equipment specs of the year of manufacture of the engine. That includes evaporative emissions stuff, as well as the stuff designed into the engine. If you put an 80 928 engine in a '76 914, you'll need the evap stuff, all the EFI, the correct thermostat, the recirculating fuel system, and a catalytic converter feeding into a single exhaust pipe. I did a 2000 Jetta motor into a 1991 Vanagon, and it got really interesting with the BAR, the EPA, and the DMV didn't care. FWIW, Colorado was the same way, 'cause the owner tried to get tags there, too.

Now. The release of liability issue. If you send it in, it's SUPPOSED to relieve you of legal liability. However, in it's other function as an arm of the franchise tax board, the DMV sometimes runs into a tough situation. It's a smart move on your part to use the DMV bill of sale, and to record the buyers name, address, and driver's license number on the forms, in the spaces indicated. Send in the release, KEEP a SIGNED copy of the bill of sale in case they hassle you for tax money. How hard is that? The Cap'n

Yes, but if the car has been off the DMVs books for a while, the new title requires the engine number.

I believe that you can put any engine you want to in a '75 or older car and it only has to be to the standards for the year of the car. I don't think (subjective criteria) that the ARB or EPA cares about cars older than 30 years.

Emission Control Configuration
Mixing and matching emission control system components could cause problems and is generally not allowed. Engine and emission control systems must be in an engine-chassis configuration certified by the California Air Resources Board (ARB) or U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The engine must meet or exceed the requirements for the year and class of vehicle in which it is installed.

You problem with the Jetta was that the 2000 engine only had to meet '91 standards but it could not have any of its smog controls altered since it was going into a smog controlled car. i.e.:

Certification Standards
Make sure the engine and emission control configuration on exhaust - controlled vehicles are certified to the year of the vehicle or newer, and to the same or a more stringent new vehicle certification standard.

or

Computer Controls
If a computer-controlled engine is installed in a non-computerized vehicle, the "CHECK ENGINE" light, the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) diagnostic link, and all sensors, switches, and wiring harnesses needed to make the system fully functional must also be installed.

Link:
CA DMV Engine Change Guidelines

-Jeff

Good point. I have not had to deal with that.

-Jeff

A week ago I went to the DMV with the pink on a '75 roller I got for free. No smog cert. just what I thought it was worth (500.00), and $65.00 later I had current tags until Oct. 2005!

The Cap'n has it correct according to my reading of the law (not a lawyer).

The emissions regs currently state 1975 and older and you're off the hook for testing completely. However, the bit on engine swaps (a completely different section of the law from the emissions regs) states that if the year of the engine is newer than the year of the chassis, the engine year is the one that counts for emissions, and all of the emissions equipment that came with the engine must be present and functioning in the new chassis. There's a complete procedure for getting this tested at a BAR referee station the first time you license the car after the swap. Put a 1980 engine in a 1970 chassis and you've now legally produced a 1980 car as far as the emissions are concerned. The referee station gives you paperwork to that effect and from that point forward you have a 1980 whatsit, subject to all of the smog testing for a 1980 car.

Now, from a practical standpoint, since pre-76 cars aren't regularly tested, you could put a brand new Boxster engine in a 914, with Webers replacing the EFI and no catalyst, and you'd probably get away with it indefinitely. You can usually get away with cheating on your taxes for a good long while, too. And I'm sure all of us pay strict attention to posted speed limits at all times...

Note that there's a section in the Health & Safety regulations (can't remember the number off the top of my head), that states that CARB reserves the right to backdate some emissions regulations all the way to 1958. I have no idea if this has ever been enforced, or even discussed seriously, but the section is there if you do a search on the full H&S statute. The current emissions laws only exempt you from the current testing. If some new test is dreamed up later (roadside or otherwise), I'm sure you could be subject to it, and I'm sure some significant number of people would be caught out by it, esp. those with carbs in place of EFI on a 914.

So, put a pre-smog V8 or what have you in a 914, and you're still more or less safe. It's an open question if someone could tell that your engine is or isn't pre-smog (esp. for something like a small-block).

The engine I put in is around a 1966 or 67 I think, its a 283. the car is a 74. I have not gone to register it yet which is the last piece of this puzzle. I may go over to AAA today and see what the story is and how much it will cost me. The last time the car was registered was in 2000. So it is still in the computers at the DMV. I will not be mentioning the fact that I have installed a Chevy V8 engine into this car. I will just tell them I have been working on it restoring it for the past 2 years and see what happens.

That was NOT my experience. The '75 I bought was last registered in 1985, and stored in a garage since. Title and registration was completely off the books with no existing record or evidence at all, zero. I submitted the title from the PO to the Auto Club, they put in a request for title, they witnessed the VIN, I paid sales tax, license fee, a $12.00 title origination fee (or something like that), and walked out with plates and '04 tag. No engine number was asked for nor required for the transfer of title or licensing. It was incredibly easy.

Andy

I have to go with Jake on this one. The weather is primo out there and you have teeners out the ying yang, but the governmental regulations on you guys sounds like nothing but a money hunt. They could give a rats ass about air quality, thats a tree hugger's thing. Since your new gov took over it sounds like after a while we may end up with your cars hitting the for sale block soon. I'd say you guys get a petition going and face those over zealous money grubbing govenment people and put them in their place. Sounds like a damn communist state from what I'm reading.

Not too bad. He just got his Hummer converted to hydrogen. I wouldn't mind owning a hydrogen powered teener. As long as there's some incentive to convert it.

I'm glad that is the perception of California. Please don't move here. We already have enough of your kind (people from the midwest). Thank you!

Yeah, every year we get an influx of 10K people. It's that damned Rose Parade. While the rest of the country is freezing their nuts off, we're out here on January 1st wearing sweaters because it's cold outside (sunny and 68'). Don't come here. Every ten years you get woke up by an earthquake. You can go surfing on the sidewalks, and the chimneys fall down. Gee, sounds real scary compared to a flood, a hurricane, or a tornado.

In fact, come to visit us for the WCC 05 and take a few home with you when you leave.

I lived in the Midwest for 15 years. The regulations vary wildly from place to place, even within a given state.

For example, when I left St. Louis 10 years ago, the law at the time required a safety AND emissions inspection EVERY YEAR (CA is every other year), and there was no cutoff for old cars (until 1968, when it's only a safety inspection). The safety inspection checks things like brakes, steering, lights, etc. Emissions was a tailpipe only test. I'm told this has since changed, but I've heard conflicting reports about whether it's more lax, or tighter. Meanwhile, my father, in rural Missouri, has no inspection at all, of any kind, at any time.

Under the law that existed 10 years ago, it was actually HARDER to license a 914 in MO than it is now in CA. And CA is not the toughest anymore. AZ still requires smog checks on all cars back to 1968, and it's a visual test, just like CA. It's considerably harder to own a 914 in AZ than in CA.

Meanwhile, in CA, yes, the weather is very nice. No salt on the roads and a culture devoted to it means seeing 30 year old cars is something that happens several times a day, every day. My daily driver was made in 1967, and no one bats an eyelash at it here, or the fact that I drive it every day. There are six significant shops in the SF Bay Area alone that handle Alfa Romeo, a marque that hasn't sold a car in the US since 1994, and rarely sold more than 1000 a year at their best (viz, there are fewer Alfas in the US than 914s...). We do pay for all of this niceness with some regulations that don't exist elsewhere, but more directly with high prices for everything, esp. housing. There are good reasons to live here, and good reasons to live elsewhere.

To do it legally.

I am asking if there is a legal way, or what are the legalities associated with it.

And in califonia, when you register a car, they check all the proper locations for the proper VINs.

Michael

Well, it is not a rumor. There are roadside testing going on. The only dispute it whether people are being cited, or having issues with re registration if they are deemed a gross polluter. The DMV claimms that it is for statistical analysis right now. That has yet to be seen, although, I have a friend, who has a friend YADA YADA YADA, who claimed he got a ticket. I asked for proof, and have yet to see it, so I highly doubt he was cited, but, I guess it is possible.

Michael

so what engine choices have you made for your conversion?

AS IS has nothing to do with smog. As Is a legal term that is used to limit or eliminate any warranties, either implied or expressed. (Some implied warranties can not be disclaimed)

Here is my question. Yes, if the car passed for years, it will probably pass again. But, I want to put a different engine in. I know that in order to do that legally, you have to put in a later engine year, with ALL the emmissions control devices, including the pressurized gas tank. That is a pain in the butt. However, if I put in a later engine, but do away with the cats/fuel tank, while it is legal to have the engine in the car, if I still have to pass smog, I might have a problem. If I have to go to the ref, who will check if I have the proper gas tank and cats, that is a problem also. So, my question is, does a pre 1975 or whatever year it is, have to go to the ref for an engine swap, and does it have to go for emmissions testing?

Michael

Uh, no. This is from someone who's registered, oh, 15 cars or so in California at, oh, 8 different DMV offices. They look at the one VIN plate on the A pillar. If you have a car that's old enough that the VIN isn't there, they send you to the CHP to have the VIN verified. I've only done the CHP thing once, but the process was that I showed the officer where the VIN was (on the firewall, in this case), showed him how on previous similar cars the CA VIN had been constructed by taking the model number on line 1 of the plate and the serial number on line 2 of the plate (Australian-built '64 Mini). He nodded, saying it made sense, wrote that number down, bullshitted for awhile about the car (gee, I didn't know right hand drive was legal here...), then handed over the signed, stamped paper.

They do not check a 914 for the VINs stamped elsewhere on the body, at least not with any regularity. They *MIGHT*, if they happen to know where they are, but they don't check it normally. If the A-pillar plate matches what you say it says on the paper, you're done.

This really brings up the issue of "what's the law?" v. "what's actually enforced?", which are two entirely different things.

No. You can put in an engine from the same year as the chassis, if it's available. If you put in an earlier engine, you have to get the engine to pass the emissions for the year of the chassis. If the chassis is pre-smog, and the engine is pre-smog, no problem. If the chassis is pre-smog, and the engine is post-smog, then you have to change things, or neglect to inform the DMV.

Now, it's something of an open question if, after doing an engine swap, you're legally obligated to go to a ref station for checking if both engine and chassis are pre-smog. However, if you use, for example, a '73 engine in a '73 chassis, getting the engine to meet emissions shouldn't be a problem. No cat required, and other than ensuring that you're using the correct fuel system (can't use carbs if both engine AND chassis used FI originally). Basically just breathers, a canister, and the tailpipe test. The law is completely unclear on whether you need to visit a ref at all in this case.

If the engine you want is only available post-smog, then you have something of a dilemma.

Michael...When I decided in 93 to get my 1968 V8 VW smogged,"legally", I made an appointment with a referee. At that time, 1966 and later had to be smogged. My egine setup at that time was the 455 Olds, with dual point aftermarket dizzy, hi-rise and factory Quadrajet, aftermarket aircleaner. The ref wanted to know the year of the engine, I fudged and told him it was a 72. "If" he checked the serial number of the motor he did a bad job, it is a 76 motor. All this means that at that time it had to pass a visual, and a sniffer. Mine didn't pass the visual, only because of the dizzy, and he didn't like my PCV setup ( it worked fine, even he acknowledged that). He went ahead and sniffed it and it passed, all I had to do was go to Pepboys and buy a $29.95 single point dizzy, drop it in( not even putting a light on it) and change my PCV to his liking. He checked everything again, on a later visit, and I got my certification tag ( it's still on the car ). He told me....OK....now take it home and put everything back.. . Little did he know, I was changing over to the tunnelram, and 2 four setup.. ..(Check "Dads' 914 will have to wait", posted yesterday. I sold the car in 1995 because the car was STILL under the smog laws, and I didn't want to change everything again. There were a few more reasons for selling, but not important here. I recently got the car back from outta state. They..( AAA ) checked the Vin number on the car against the title and checked nothing else. OBVIOUSLY....they had no problem seeing the 455 Olds stickin up back there. Case closed.....pay my fees, and I was outta there. I also understand there are roadside sniffing setups goig on......have yet to experience one, so I can't comment. Hope this helps.....Dad

thank god i dont have to deal with that kinda crap.
i dont think i could drive any car ive ever owned in cali.

When I registered my 75 with a 3.2 six in it they only looked at the vins and didn't even care what motor was in it.
They did not ask for a smog certificate or anything else.

Steve