VIN swap discussion Options

[scotty b]

FIRST PLEASE READ THIS POST IN IT'SENTIRETY BEFORE RESPONDING !!


This thread is NOT meant to be a discussion of the legality of a VIN swap. We all know it is illegal to simply swap the numbers from one car to another.


HOWEVER this comes up for discussion often as is the case in this thread
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=195530

So the HYPOTHETICAL scenario FOR DISCUSSON ONLY is this. I have 2 cars. Both legally obtained, both with clean titles and history. One is a rusted out pile of a 6, the other is a perfect example of a 1.7 4.


Now to " restore " the 6 would take many thousands of dollars, most of the metal on the car would be replaced with reproduction pieces, interior recoverd etc. So in the end very little of this car would be REAL factory built Porsche, and would in fact be a resconstruction

on the other hand I could professionaly change the vin from the six to the pristine 4 tub, have an all original factory correct chassis, then only have to swap over the few other 6 only pieces, and duplicate things like the undercoating etc tht would have to be done on wither tub. This ends up with a proper factory built 6, with original metal


The question. How do the purists among us see this. Would you rather see the original chassis completely cut apart and have brand new aftermarket panels put in, or would you rather see the vin swapped and have a TRUELY original untouched ( save for the VIN area ) Porsche body

[Woody]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bye1.gif)

[Elliot Cannon]

I'm assuming you own both the cars? If so, you're the professional. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif) Do what you think is best. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[scotty b]

I'm assuming you own both the cars? If so, you're the professional. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif) Do what you think is best. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

DAMNIT Elliot, I don't own either, this is a HYPOTHETICAL discussion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

[SirAndy]

FIRST PLEASE READ THIS POST IN IT'SENTIRETY BEFORE RESPONDING !!

Fixed the broken poll for 'ya ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Elliot Cannon]

I'm assuming you own both the cars? If so, you're the professional. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif) Do what you think is best. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

DAMNIT Elliot, I don't own either, this is a HYPOTHETICAL discussion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

You're right of course. RTFQ!! So if you HYPOTHETICALLY owned both cars and you are HYPOTHETICALLY a professional. Then I think you should HYPOTHETICALLY do what you think is best. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

[SirAndy]

No matter how you slice it (pun intended):

- If you cut the VIN out of a factory /6 and weld it into a good /4 chassis, you still only have a good /4 chassis with a /6 VIN.

- If you take the rusted /6 hulk and cut off the rusted parts and replace them with good sheetmetal from a /4 donor, you still have a factory /6 chassis with lots of replacement panels.

- End of discussion.

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[scotty b]

I'm assuming you own both the cars? If so, you're the professional. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif) Do what you think is best. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

DAMNIT Elliot, I don't own either, this is a HYPOTHETICAL discussion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

You're right of course. RTFQ!! So if you HYPOTHETICALLY owned both cars and you are HYPOTHETICALLY a professional. Then I think you should HYPOTHETICALLY do what you think is best. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) I give up (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)


Thanks Andy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[rick 918-S]

Good question. We transfer chassis numbers when we add repair panels. Is this wrong? Should we leave them out?

[bandjoey]

I can't vote because it doesn't matter to me. Fix the old or move parts is all the same in the end. A nice -6

[SirAndy]

Good question. We transfer chassis numbers when we add repair panels. Is this wrong? Should we leave them out?

Those two questions are not even related. The replacement trunk floor panel from RD does not have a chassis number stamped. It's a simple replacement panel.
You're *not* replacing one chassis number with another.

Cutting out a VIN from the front fender and welding in another VIN in it's place is what this discussion is about.
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[SirAndy]

I can't vote because it doesn't matter to me. Fix the old or move parts is all the same in the end. A nice -6

Added a 3rd option for you ...
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[ChrisFoley]

I voted option 2, even though it doesn't properly represent what I think is best.

I would retain as much of the original chassis as possible without getting into ridiculous swiss cheese type repairs.

In fact, I just had a similar project. In this case it was a -6 race car with a nice low chassis number.
The owner thought I could replace the chassis with a '74 -4 he had, and swap the six mount, the vin, and some of the structural reinforcing elements that were installed when it was turned into a race car.
However, besides the numerous differences between the '74 and '70 chassis', this car has a notable history and therefore - a significant value. People who know about historic Porsche racing in the USA are going to recognize the car. Once I saw it up close, I told the owner it would be a serious mistake to go with his idea. Someone would be sure to notice, someday.

Using a donor chassis, we clipped the front end through the steering rack hump - going around the vin tag on the wheel well; we replaced part of the floor; we replaced the firewall above the seam; and we used repair panels to fix the passenger side outer long and sill. There were numerous smaller repairs and hole filling as well.

We removed the original roll cage and installed a new one.
We removed the ugly/heavy camber boxes originally installed by Aase Brothers and installed my camber boxes. We replaced some ridiculous heavy rear console reinforcements with my heim rod braces.
We reinstalled the fuel cell mount and tube structure around the cell; we retained the rear trunk tubular reinforcements; we retained the GT stiffening panels, and some sheet metal doublers on the inner consoles.

No one can ever say the car is a fraud, since as much as possible of the original was kept intact, and at least some of the battle scars remain for those in the know to reminisce over.

['73-914kid]

This certainly brings up the situation that you see guys with camaro's go through. You can build a complete Camaro out of replacement panels from Year 1, or whatever other company you choose. Then all you do is undril the vin, or cut it out, weld it back on the new chassis, et voila, its "my old car" with brand new panels, brand new everything. The only thing old about it is the VIN.

This situation is not too dissimilar from taking a wrecked chassis, and swapping cut front end from a parts car at the fuel tank bulkhead, or a new trunk pan, or other assorted areas. You can keep going to save a wrecked car with replacement parts off a rusted out car until the only thing original to that chassis is the windshield frame with the Vin rivetted on, and the Karmann tags that have been drilled out and re-rivetted back on.

As far as I'm concerned, the VIN is what identifies a vehicle, therefore if you find a '70-6 that's a rust bucket, and swap it to a '70-4 tub and make all the modifications that make it a -6, then swap the vin numbers in an exacting manner, I think you could probably call it an original 6.

My .02 cents. This is something we discussed at length in my personal identity class for my GE's. the group consensus was that the VIN is the identification number to that vehicle. No matter what it goes on, it becomes that vehicle that is associated with those numbers.


flame on (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

[carr914]

No matter how you slice it (pun intended):

- If you cut the VIN out of a factory /6 and weld it into a good /4 chassis, you still only have a good /4 chassis with a /6 VIN.

- If you take the rusted /6 hulk and cut off the rusted parts and replace them with good sheetmetal from a /4 donor, you still have a factory /6 chassis with lots of replacement panels.

- End of discussion.

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[timothy_nd28]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[balljoint]

“This, milord, is my family’s axe. We have owned it for almost nine hundred years, see. Of course, sometimes it needed a new blade. And sometimes it has required a new handle, new designs on the metalwork, a little refreshing of the ornamentation . . . but is this not the nine-hundred-year-old axe of my family? And because it has changed gently over time, it is still a pretty good axe, y’know. ”

[balljoint]

Ship of Theseus

[Jgilliam914]

I do understand the " poll question "
I have believed that the chassis is the soul of the car. Yes you can replace virtually every rusted out panel. You can repair and replace many parts of the chassis. and All is good. But if you pull the VIN off one vehicle and attach it to another and then try to pass it to another person being " original " thats fraud.

I once knew a guy that orinally owned a 71 Hemi Cuda that he hit a flatbed truck 6 months after he purchased it with less than 5000 miles. Being totaled and he bought a Corvette with the insurance payout. When the Hemi's started to go crazy several years ago he gets a call from a dude trying to find the history of the previous owners. The car was rebuilt from the VIN out. It supposedly had the correct numbers matching motor almost 30 years after. He has seen photos of it and it looked showroom new and accurate. It has been passed on to other owners since.

Porsche Speedsters are more prone to rust than 914's but as long as you have a original VIN one restored rebuilt or remanufactured is just as original survivor in like condition.

[rick 918-S]

Good question. We transfer chassis numbers when we add repair panels. Is this wrong? Should we leave them out?

Those two questions are not even related. The replacement trunk floor panel from RD does not have a chassis number stamped. It's a simple replacement panel.
You're *not* replacing one chassis number with another.

Cutting out a VIN from the front fender and welding in another VIN in it's place is what this discussion is about.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

Ok, let me try it this way. I have a car with a rusted rear boot floor. I get a part from a donor car and trim it and weld it into my car. Do I leave the chassis number from the donor car or cut out my chassis number from the rusted panel and transfer it to the donor panel?

How large of a donor panel would be acceptable to replace the rust damage before we call it a vin and chassis swap?

How about in the case of crash damage. Let's say you take a shunt to the right front wing. It causes enough damage you have no choice but to replace the inner wing with a used one. Should you leave the vin # on the used panel or transfer your original vin onto the used part?

Again how much of the used donor is acceptable before you call it a vin swap?