OT: Dutch democracy compromised... Options

[mikey]

I read about Theo this morning. He made a film about an Islamic immigrant to the Netherlands who had assimilated herself into Dutch society pretty well (I think even elected to political office). She criticized how women are treated under Islam. So they killed Van Gogh for making a documentary about it. I hope the woman (forgot her name) is under some kind of protection because she might be next.

Read in De Telegraaf website that the police caught the killer and questioned a room mate of his. They had bomb making material and plans of De Tweede Kamer (I think that's the lower house of parliament - but my Dutch is non existent). They were clearly going after political targets.

I'm glad that the election here hasn't started political stuff like happened just before Spain's elections.

[rick 918-S]

My sincerest condolences for you and your country. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) An other example of the sick and demented things twisted minds do in the name of religion. I feel sad for the black eye this gives the gentle and deeply caring muslim people attempting to show the world who they really are.

[Dr Evil]

My sincerest condolences for you and your country.  An other example of the sick and demented things twisted minds do in the name of religion. I feel sad for the black eye this gives the gentle and deeply caring muslim people attempting to show the world who they really are.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Very well put.

[bob91403]

There are examples of religious zealots and extremists in just about every religion in history. More people have died in the name of god than I can believe. In this modern world I find it very difficult to understand any religion that prefers to remain in the dark ages. Islam had very barbaric beginings, so did catholicism. Most have moved past this "kill them to save them" reasoning. Even the catholic church took it's sweet time about admiting the world was not flat. These eastern cultures who don't wish to be "westernised" are just trying to hold on to values of oppression and inequality. When they start to make changes that lift their people up to a better way of life, instead of beating them down, I will respect them. If they cannot, or refuse to, change, with the rest of the world, on the rights and freedoms of their own people, they do not deserve anyone's respect. If they can not, or will not, change, they deserve to be vanquished and doomed to the pages of history, while the rest of the world moves forward. Let them die as martyrs for their religion, but be killed in the name of liberty, and freedom. Poor ignorant bastards deserve it.

[Walter]

My sincerest condolences for you and your country.  An other example of the sick and demented things twisted minds do in the name of religion. I feel sad for the black eye this gives the gentle and deeply caring muslim people attempting to show the world who they really are.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Very well put.

Yeah, I agree also wit the above quote.

We thought we were a tolerant country.
Guess not...

It also does put things in perspective (again). Life can be shorter than you think, so make the best out of it TODAY!

Kind regards,
Walter

[914GT]

Sure would help if these 'gentle and deeply caring' people would come out publicly and condemn these acts of violence and terrorism, but for some strange reson they remain very quiet.

[Bleyseng]

These two guys should be send to Texas so that could be tried under Texas laws.


Geoff

[Jeroen]

but for some strange reson they remain very quiet

And what gives you that idea?

[914GT]

Cite an example of public condemnation of the beheadings and other terror acts by leaders of that particular religion. Until Osama's latest tape taking credit for 9/11, they were still blaming it on Israel. I have not heard a public apology for that either.

[dmenche914]

Watch out backwards women beating islamic pigs. George Bush is coming! Once the USA and its allies defeats the islamic nutcase murdering swine the civilized world will be safe again, for our Dutch friends and the rest of the world.

By the way the USA is far from the top of the list of nations with political assasinations. We didn't start it, and considering the millions of firearms (in about half the homes) we own, our number of assasinations is suprisingly (too some) much less than in europes history.

Oh yeah, maybe it was the gun control that allowed the assasinations, be kind of hard for Hitler or Stalin to round up and kill their political enemies if they had not first inacted gun confiscation, which started as gun registration, but hell thats how it always starts.

So much for "americanization of europe" If we really wanted too, we could have Americanized the whole lot of Europe 60 years ago, but like we did before, after we cleaned up the mess, we left them, and yet there are still complaints they are too Americanized, all with negitive atributes. Perhaps the one thing we Americans (and our British Empire allies) did for Europe is that we left them free, free to choose, free to make mistakes. perhaps now Europe will wake up and see that we are fighting a bad enemy, and that Europe is in grave danger, perhaps more so than the USA, seeing as europe has so many islamists living in its midst. Hopefully europe will come around and see the real danger that it is facing, that civilization is facing. Hopefully they will not wait too long, with their desire for peace at all costs. This attitude cost millions of lives in WWII because the europeans failed to do anything about hitler until it was too late.

Hey, anyone see any of them international UN type Election monitors running around the USA yesterday? If so, did you kick them in the nuts twice (once for me)?

[redshift]

I have no stomach for Islamic extremist, and I am growing impatient with the Islamic regulars.


M

[marankie]

Hello Jeroen,
Unfortunately even in tolerant Holland there is a price to be paid both in money and lives, when you import a bunch of people from a compltely different culture and starkly different religion/ set of values, that refuse to assimulate to western values of the host country. Despite the "it wont happen here" assurances of the Dutch government and know-it-all social workers, both of who have their heads firmly stuck in the sand, it will and does happen. And it will happen again, to anyone like van Gogh and Fontuyn, that dare openly speak the truth about these people and the discrimminations they practice against for example their own women. Holland (and Europe) needs to wake up and recognize that they cannot have it both ways. What do you think about Turkey applying for European membership? I am sure you know about the Eurpean women that have been assualted and murdered in Turkey while on vacation. And Turkey is probably the least radical of the Islamic states. It is time that Holland and Europe recognized that America's (terrorist) is also theirs.
Best Regards,
Martin Jansen (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[MarkV]

The Dutch didn't waste any time arresting the suspects:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/a...mmaker_slain_25

[SirAndy]

It is time that Holland and Europe recognized that America's (terrorist) is also theirs.

i have to disagree ...

Americas foreign policy over the last decades has made us a lot of enemies that have now focused on us primarily.
this hasn't always been the case, terrorism isn't anything new and Europe always had it's share, but as i said, it has shifted towards the US in recent years.

the only thing that really amazes me about all of this is how surprised all of you guys seem. where have you been since 1980 ???
everyone i know (in Europe at least) has seen this coming for a long time, it was just simply a matter of time until the terrorists would bring the war to the US ...

and this is just the beginning, mark my words, this is going to get worse ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) Andy

[type11969]

and this is just the beginning, mark my words, this is going to get worse ...

I don't know how you could say that considering we just busted into a nation and severely pissed a lot of people off. Apparently we have the resources though to kill all the people we pissed off who are next generation terrorists, with a increasing deficit and an army that is already spread thin.

Oh yeah, and we won't need to raise taxes or have a draft either to get this all done.

They must have one helluva magic wand in DC!

-Chris

[Jeroen]

Martin, your absolutely right

Stoopid thing is... every body here knows it, but the government won't do shit about it, no matter how much it aggrevates the people, because it's not "politically correct"

Most frustrating about it is that the Dutch secret service has been "closely following" the killer and about 200 other muslim extremists
I guess they're waiting for them to act before they bust em (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)
They should be deported right away!!!

Recently, a member of parliament was actually kicked out of his party because he spoke out about the fact that adding Turkye to the EU was unacceptable

The whole EU thing sucks.
France is pretty much bankrubt. The UK is close as is Germany (which has huge poverty and unemploiment issues with formal Eastern Germany)
Poland is still trying to figure out the concept of tarmac.
Italy is completely fucked-up with their dictator Berlusconi and it's economically as weak as Spain and Portugal.
So, sure, why not add Turkye, a country that for 75% is still living in the dark ages

There are too few economically strong countries in the EU. Those that are, are way too small to carry the burden of the rest of 'em and they are pulling us along in their bankrupcies...

[nebreitling]

chris: it's almost as if you're saying that we're making enemies faster than we can kill them... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)


that point made, i applaud van gogh's work. it's about about damn time people started speaking frankly about the serious problems of specific cultures.

[type11969]

chris: it's almost as if you're saying that we're making enemies faster than we can kill them... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

I dunno how you could have possibly gotten that idea. I really like the fact that people think that this war in Iraq has made this nation safer, yeah, perhaps now there is a lesser chance that we will get attacked, perhaps. But people making the argument that the definite reason why we haven't gotten attacked since 9/11 is because of the war over there is like saying that this cup of water here is doing the same thing. We haven't gotten attacked, right? So this cup is doing a hell of a job.

Anyway, its the not so distant future we have to worry about. When the kids in Iraq whos parents were killed by the invading Americans emerge from the Iraqi underground. When we begin to let our guard down because the war over there has "taught terrorist not to mess with us." When we have severed so many international ties that even if other countries know about the impending attacks, they won't tell us out of spite. When we have gone into such serious debt that our own intellegence agencies are more of a joke than they currently are and can't give us the warning we need.

Okay, so maybe I'm a bit of a pessimist, but I think it is much more dangerous to be an optimist that thinks this war in Iraq is going to solve this terrorism problem.

end rant

-Chris

[dmenche914]

Chris; Bottom line in Iraq is we have no more made future terrorists out of all the kids of parents killed by our bombs, than we made japanese or german terrorists post WWII, and we killed a hell of alot more of them than Iraqi's civilian wise. The reason they did not hate us, and why the iraqi's won't (and 75% admit they are really glad saddam is gone) is that we took out a really bad government, that was killing more than we had. We bring the promise of a free future, but we must continue fighting the remaining saddam loyalists, and terrorists, local and imported. Once done, iraq will be free to choose.
remember WWII took many years to fight, and years after to pacify. Europeans must have a self esteem problem if they think the Iraqi's can change in 2-3 years after 30 years of saddam, if germany took over a decade fo pacify after the war started, and hitler had not been ruling very long either. Give Iraq some time.
How are we safer? saddam supporteed terrorism, that is a fact, money to hamas sucide bomber families, sheltering terrorists, are all documented. saddam brutalized the region, an important region for oil, which the world needs. saddam had a weapons program, a documented history of chemical weapons use on his own CIVILIANS. That explosives stash that in the last week of the election made news as disapearing had one main use to saddam, as a detonater to an atomic bomb. That is why he had the stuff, you get it???? he had plans to make a nuke, and some of the parts, the UN knew he had this stuff, and damn well knew why he had it. That is why UN weapons inspectors are a farce, the UN does not act on it by wanting to take out the problem, the problem was saddam, and they let him keep the stuff, F@*& the UN, worthless, Get it??? After saddam was captured, terrorist kadahfi gave up his weapons program. This is big news, he gave it up without a fight, all cause what he saw us do to saddam. Two nations out of the nuke bussiness for that price of one, get it????
The terrorists are so busy killing iraqi civilians, that they are pissing iraqi's off, and iraqi's are joining the iraqi police/army in droves, dispite killings of recruits. Imagine that, iraqi's joining together to kill islamic terrorists, on their own soil. Do you get the plan, do you understand the strategy??? read again........ Iraqi's are joining up to fight terrorists!!!!
This is offense. We were sucker punched attacked on 9-11, we are now on the offensive. This is the only logical stand to take, the offensive. if we remain only defensive, we will allow the terror to come to our shores again.

Whats next? i do not know, but I wager our barginning position with N. Korea, and Iran is much more now that they have seen us take out Iraq, and that the civilians are turnig aginst the terrorists. Libyia is coming clean, the Pakistani Nuke scientist that was running a make your own nuke for sale is now out of bussiness also, libyia , and iraq were customers of this.

Hell yes we are safer now, hell yes!

If only a a few more vocal european nations, and China had helped out, we had plenty of good help from many nations, but the few that opposed held things up, allowed explosive to dissapear before combat (in an attempt to hide the source of these illegal per UN
embargo items).

If the other vocally opposed nations would get it, we would all act in concert against Iran, and N. Korea, as any sane person can see we can not let either nation obtain nukes, or more nukes, and that fuck chi bad hair doo dictator in N. korea makes saddam look like a good guy with the way he, and his father before him have inslaved the N. korean civilians.

Time good nations clean up the really bad guys, a few nations that claim to be civilized have not wised to help, either they do not give a damn, are blind, have current economic interests in seeing the bad guys survive, or see America as an enemy, and wish to support what ever causes us problems, these types, like the chinese just plain hate freedom, hell the chinese are commies.

Anyrate, we are not going to make more terrorists by being on the offensive, we obliterate them when we are on the offensive. If we achive the root of freedom in iraq, chances are it will spread too near by terror states (iran, and saudi specifically) We also have a foot hold there now, just in case an ayhtolla assahola in nextdoor iran gets funning ideas with nukes or something.

You cannot win on the defensive, you just cannot. Take the war too them, and iraq was one of them, no doubt.

[SirAndy]

[... nuke ...]

reads nice when you look at it that way, except you're underestimating those guys, which is dangerous at best.
it won't be anywhere as smooth as you would like it to be ...

let's revisit this thread 4 years from now and see who was right.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) Andy