OT: Dutch democracy compromised... Options

[dmenche914]

Sir Andy: Ok, lets see who is right or wrong but to be fair, since I could be right or wrong, what is your plan for the fight on terror? How would you have acted since 9-11, how would you act now given your plan? What assumptions do you make? I'd like to know where you are coming from on this.

i do not understand the meaning of the nuke quote, but I will say this, the Nuke problem is the biggest we will face in the future, and to make the best chance of a good future, we need to stop these wacko nations from getting them. we have seen that they can, and will seceretly develope them right under our, and the UN's noses. Imagine a future with terrorist bombs, which is what will happen when Iran, and N. Korea , and others get bombs being made.

So "Nuke" is the really big future question. trust Iran, N.Korea.

dave

[Bleyseng]

Okay, so maybe I'm a bit of a pessimist, but I think it is much more dangerous to be an optimist that thinks this war in Iraq is going to solve this terrorism problem.

end rant

-Chris

I have to agree with Chris as I think we have made more Islamic enemies than friends. This attack on Iraq reeks with the US snatching Iraq for its oil. The fact that we have repeatedly f'd up things, stirred up a civil war between the two Islamic groups isn't in our favor. The rest of the Arab world isn't stepping up the the plate and helping out like in the 1st Gulf war. Hmm, in fact tons of money is pouring in to fight the "Infidels'.

Europe has been fighting terrorism for years and the US is finally on the "list". I expect more attacks as we can't wipe out these guys. Bush is going to get really tired of these "flies".

What happened to the 3 guys who killed the lady in the Morrocan store last year???

Geoff

[74GoKart]

"Saddam Hussein's use of chemical weapons in the past is repeatedly cited by the US and British governments as justification for his removal from power now. But just what was their response to his use of poison gas against Iranian troops and Iraqi Kurds in the 1980s? Far from condemning his actions, they stepped up their support for Baghdad. One of the most damning revelations to come out of the Scott inquiry into the arms-to-Iraq affair was the British government's secret decision to supply Saddam with even more weapons-related equipment after he shelled the Kurdish town of Halabja in March 1988 with gas bombs, killing an estimated 5,000 civilians and maiming thousands more. Saddam said he had punished the Kurds for "collaboration" after the town had been successfully attacked by Iran. The weapons were produced with German-supplied chemicals.

This cynicism and hypocrisy was matched only by the US. Soon after the attack, Washington approved the export to Iraq of virus cultures and a $1bn contract to design and build a petrochemical plant the Iraqis planned to use to produce mustard gas. And while the Reagan administration condemned the use of chemical weapons during the eight-year Iraq-Iran war, US officers were secretly supplying Iraqi generals with bomb-damage assessments and detailed information on Iranian troop deployments.
"The use of gas on the battlefield by the Iraqis was not a matter of deep strategic concern," Walter Lang, a former senior US defense intelligence officer, told the New York Times this week. Washington was worried about the threat of Iran spreading its Islamic revolution to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia."
Richard Norton-Taylor
Wednesday August 21, 2002
The Guardian

So we are going to eliminate all the people that suppport and fund terrorists...then when do the bombs start falling here, or London, or Berlin?
If you truly believe that we should stamp out terrorism, then do your patriotic duty and keep a close eye on what your elected officials are doing. Vote, email them, and let them know what you think about the direction our nation is heading in and don't let them tell you that they are doing something that is in our "best interest" without knowing all the facts.

http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

[bob91403]

Georgey boy only went into Iraq to clean up the mess his gutless daddy, who ignored his generals, didn't fix the first time we went over there. Why the hell did we have to beat them twice? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) We should have sent a message the first time, and wiped Saddam's ass off the planet. Then maybe we wouldn't look like such pantywaists to other countries and terrorists. We tried to be pacifists before. What did it get us? A terrorist attack called Pearl Harbor. We can't ever bury our heads in the sand. We have to prioritize the list and take them down, one by one. You saw what Libya did. They surrendered before the fight began. We had Kudafi shaking in his boots. We have to keep kicking ass and taking names until terrorists have no more rocks to hide under. Then all they can do is run. You know what the sniper says "If you run you'll only die tired." I'm glad Georgey boy won. Better some fool who kicks ass than some liberal anti-war pantywaist. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/gunner.gif)

[Bleyseng]

With Libya, 20 years of International sanctions had ground his country's economy to dust including his oil revenues soo he became a good boy to end that. Now money is pouring back into his county and his oil industry is being repaired/updated.

Read the 1999 book "Blowback-The Costs of Consequences of American Empire"
"Blowback is simply another way of saying that a nation reaps what is sows. Our national experience is seldom imagined in such terms because so much of what the managers of the American empire have sown has been kept secret."

Going around kicking ass works for a little while until you piss off everyone around you and they gang up on you and really kick your ass.

At the moment the Sudan is laughing at any attemps by the US for peace. What are we gonna do, send troops! There aren't any left to send..so pretty idle threats.

If you don't think this Iraq war is all about the control of oil, what is it about then? Some stupid revenge of GW Bush, gimme a break.

Geoff

[bob91403]

Gee, their timing was just a coincidence. Twenty years, and they pick now? I'm sure they've been smuggling things in and out of the country for the last twenty years. Just because sanctions are imposed doesn't mean they can't get around them. Not revenge, just fixing something that needed fixing. Just a coincidence that his dad didn't have the balls to get the job done the first time. If it was about oil, why are gas prices going up? Do you think they'll ever go down? I doubt it. As far as Sudan goes, they'll fall in line as soon as they get to the top of the list. Libya knew they were next. Sure it would be nice to live in a world where everything was sunshine and lollipops. If that's what your looking for you better find a planet where nobody shits, otherwise there's always going to be assholes out there. And just who is it that's going to gang up on us and kick our ass? The French? The Germans? The Canadians? OOH, I'm so scared. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif)

[Elliot_Cannon]

So we're successful in establishing a democratic government in Iraq. They elect a president and a congress, parlaiment etc. Then they decide they don't want us in their country and also decide to triple the price of the oil they sell us. If they did that the US marines would be the first in as usuall. This is all about securing the oil fields. In the first gulf war, we didn't liberate the Kuwaiti people. We liberated the Kuwaiti oil. There is no liberty in Kuwait and no Democracy iether. We were given two reasons for invading Iraq. First was weapons of mass destruction which weren't found. The next reason was Saddaam was a really bad guy. Now he's in custody. Why are we still there? The OIL. Oil, until something else is found is the life blood of the world. Without it people start to starve. Then you will see a real war.
Does anyone have a question about the car???
Cheers, Elliot

[Jeroen]

I honestly don't understand why so many of you believe the BS propaganda.

[type11969]

Sorry I posted my rant before guys, I've gotten in too many political discussions over the last few weeks on forums and it always boils down to no one is convinced of anything other than what they currently believe. So there really wasn't a point. Personally I believe that we don't have the military size or the monetary resources to do the terrorist nation hopping that is suggested without sending this country back to civil unrest rivaling 1968. And I also believe that these religious extremists , if we keep pushing on them harder, they will just go deeper into the underground, only to emerge when we least expect it. There is very little anyone can do to convince me otherwise unless you have a Delorean with a few modifications by Dr. Emmit Brown. So I'll quit posting.

Chalk this up to cynism I guess, but I think it is damn idealist and optimistic to think that there isn't an alterior motive for going into Iraq when there are more dangerous threats in the world (Like N. Korea that HAS obtained nuclear warheads on Bush's watch). And I find it kind of pathetic when people refer to democrats as weak or what was that? pantywaisted? Come on, it really just takes away from any point that you are trying to make. Dammit, I'm still posting. Ughh, sorry. I'm done, seriously.

-Chris

[Bleyseng]

Iraq will be a puppet country like Japan and West Germany was. We will control the oil industry there thus upsetting the OPEC oil control and taking the Saudi's to task. We needed a way to get them to stop their crazy exporting of money and extremist Islam.

This never had anything to do with a Democracy, freeing Iraq from a bad guy, blah blah. If you believe this you have brainwashed by all the sound bites and mass tv lies. Last time I heard we are building 14 army bases in Iraq. Now that doesn't sound like we are leaving very quickly does it?

Bush is just a act, he didn't own a ranch before nor even run one. His act appeals to over half of America (see the election results).
I had never thought Bush was stupid, I just see what he is up to.
How long do you think Cheney will stay VP? The GOP needs to groom a new Pres canidate soon.
Amazing the rest of the world can see thru all the US BS and see what is going on. Of course their News services aren't so regulated.....

Geoff

[redshift]

Hey folks.. most of you know how I feel. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

See, Iraq is fly paper. Iraq is local to where the problems of Islamism starts.

The idea is that they can't sit on their hands, and if they are radical enough to travel great distances to try to kill us, we've made it easier for them to take commuter flights, and walk, instead of that pesky layover in Frankfurt, where the egg sandwiches cost $15..

Anyways, if they are close to a battle, they are coming... Saddamn opened the door to this action, we have a real chance to deplete the legions.

When they say 3/4 of A-Q leadership is dead, they mean it.

UBL delivered the only bomb he could before our election; a video tape of a 6'5" dickhead spouting recipies.

I hate to ask, but who are the innocent people you want dead? If we carry the war to their soil, your mothers, children, and friends won't be the targets.

Operation Fly Trap; On Schedule.

God, bless the Marines, bless our troops, and thanks for the Tom Daschle thing.

Hey, I'd sooner see a cave full of 9th century technologists burn alive, than miss posts from a single one of you. Imagine if a terror attack killed Brad... or Jenny..

There hasn't been an attck on our soil since 9/11, because we are holding their ears, and kicking them squarely in the nose..

What if an Islamist on a tricycle loaded with firecrackers crashed into mikez....

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)


M

[Jeroen]

I find it was alarming that so many Bush voters voted for him because of insignificant things like the gay marriage and abortion or even worse, because he is put in office by God...
And that voters didn't care about the big issues that will really influence their lives, like health care, taxes, the war in Iraq, unemployment and... and... and...

[redshift]

You've just completely mischaracterized our recent election, almost completely out of phase. Europe does not understand US, and that is why we LEFT.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

My ancestors didn't come here to make this place a better 'there'.


M

[Jeroen]

I guess you're right... I never knew over 50% of the US citizens are millionairs that never have health problems and don't care about employment because they have enuf money anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[redshift]

They aren't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have a mantra, "If I can't afford it, I don't get it".... I do my best to afford the things I need most, I just sold a prized instrument so I could sink the money into my business, I don't borrow money.

We are not a socialist country, so much, you can't apply your local methods to our situation, and come out with anything that makes sense, so don't.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

We're doing just fine, call us if you need anything.

Oh, contrary to what you may hear, our unemployment is within 2/10ths of a point of being a record low.


M

[ClayPerrine]

I would post my opinion here.. .but I have a very firm belief.


I never discuss religion or politics with anyone, especially friends. Because no matter what opinion you express, you are always going to piss someone off........... (as evidenced by this thread).


So here's to all the troops overseas..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) You guys ROCK!!!! You have a tough job and you are doing it extremely well.



Yes, I voted. No, I won't tell you who I voted for.


NAZI! NAZI! NAZI!

Now.... by the unoffical rules of mailing lists and bbs', I have mentioned Nazis. So the thread is officially dead... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

(Oh.. and I consider the choice of computer OS (Linux/Unix/Microsoft) to be a religion (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) )

[ThinAir]

I find it was alarming that so many Bush voters voted for him because of insignificant things like the gay marriage and abortion or even worse, because he is put in office by God...
And that voters didn't care about the big issues that will really influence their lives, like health care, taxes, the war in Iraq, unemployment and... and... and...

They are not seen as insignificant things because they reflect whether life is valued or not and thus form the core for all the "big things" that you mentioned. I personally find it very disturbing that my fellow Christians cannot see that the deaths from abortion and the deaths in Iraq (military or civilian) must be weighed against each other in a decision like this election.

Like most elections, it came down to a choice for me between two bad choices. Bush shares my positions on abortion, gay marriage and stem cell research - the so-called "moral issues" in the media. I don't think he has a clue about anything else and I believe he has squandered his capital of credibility. I think Kerry had everything right, except these issues. Unfortunately, you can't combine candidates and there wasn't anyone else on the ballot that came anywhere close to having the positions I look for.

[SLITS]

Never understood why everyone gets pissed off - this is just words and thoughts. Get a life.

Miles, you on different drugs? You're starting to scare me by making complete sense (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Anyway, I see the ovarian members are not posting images of puppies and furry things on this thread - whatzamatter?

And to those in "harm's way" - May you be safe and return well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) I thank you for attempting to secure our borders and maybe the rest of the world's too against religious fanatics that should be eliminated by any means - call it genocide - don't care.

[Jeroen]

We are not a socialist country, so much, you can't apply your local methods to our situation, and come out with anything that makes sense, so don't.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This statement makes me believe you understand less about europe than europeans understands about the US (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Clay,
I personally like stuff like this. I'm not looking to change someone's oppinion.
For me, it's just curiosity. I like to find out what makes people tick.
It's my version of Joe Yoders' "how the human brain works"

Me, I never get pissed because I agree to disagree with everybody (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[redshift]

Miles, you on different drugs?

The bag you sent that says "Not fit for human consumption"..

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

Ja_roon, I don't believe healthcare is a.. right.. anymore than car repair, or a 12-pack of Budweiser.



M