Type 4 build cost, educate me Options

[chrisg]

OK, I've searched and I'm tired of going through old threads so excuse me if this has been done too many time before.
I've been here for a while off and on and really hope to have time to get my car back on the road some day while I still have reflexes and my wits about me so I can drive. I am constantly thinking about how I will build it. I need more counseling in the motor department. Educate me again about what it is that make building a type 4 cost so damn much? I see where parts are becoming scarce and there is the usual machining and balancing to be done and maybe I am ignorant to building an aircooled VW motor, but damn!
I'd love to keep my car with an aircooled motor, be it VW or Porsche (fantasy), but I also want torque and hopefully FI (carbs seem so archaic, not to mention all the ethanol problems we experience; my carbed motorcycles hate the crap, I'm tied of cleaning jets!)
A six is very alluring, but every thread tells me it is out of my budget and I really am OK with keeping the Type 4. A 2056 w/ fi cam (most likely built by McMark) is really my most likely route but wonder if the cost vs. satisfaction will be there. A 2270 sounds more tempting to me, but then there is the fi problem (cost)
My real question is why does even the 2056 cost so damn much? or am I just not realizing how bitchin' a $5-6K 2056 w/factory fi will be. I've only driven my GA 2.0 w/ l jet, and it was foot on the floor slow.
I keep going back to the Suby conversion at that point but it just seems wrong and the radiator set ups I've seen just don't sit well with me.
Keeping it aircooled just seems like the right thing to do. Am I just being cheap?

[porschecb]

OK, I've searched and I'm tired of going through old threads so excuse me if this has been done too many time before.
I've been here for a while off and on and really hope to have time to get my car back on the road some day while I still have reflexes and my wits about me so I can drive. I am constantly thinking about how I will build it. I need more counseling in the motor department. Educate me again about what it is that make building a type 4 cost so damn much? I see where parts are becoming scarce and there is the usual machining and balancing to be done and maybe I am ignorant to building an aircooled VW motor, but damn!
I'd love to keep my car with an aircooled motor, be it VW or Porsche (fantasy), but I also want torque and hopefully FI (carbs seem so archaic, not to mention all the ethanol problems we experience; my carbed motorcycles hate the crap, I'm tied of cleaning jets!)
A six is very alluring, but every thread tells me it is out of my budget and I really am OK with keeping the Type 4. A 2056 w/ fi cam (most likely built by McMark) is really my most likely route but wonder if the cost vs. satisfaction will be there. A 2270 sounds more tempting to me, but then there is the fi problem (cost)
My real question is why does even the 2056 cost so damn much? or am I just not realizing how bitchin' a $5-6K 2056 w/factory fi will be. I've only driven my GA 2.0 w/ l jet, and it was foot on the floor slow.
I keep going back to the Suby conversion at that point but it just seems wrong and the radiator set ups I've seen just don't sit well with me.
Keeping it aircooled just seems like the right thing to do. Am I just being cheap?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[scotty b]

Parts are getting expensive., More often than not, there is a fair amount of machine work needed on the heads, if not complete replacement. Do a proper build on a 350 and you'll have just as much in it. DO a proper build on a Suby and you'll have as much in it. Do a proper build on a 911 and you'll have 2-3x in it.

Mark would definitely be the right choice

[Cap'n Krusty]

$5-6K gets you a pretty much top of the line STOCK rebuild from me. Not full-on top, but reasonably close. The heads alone are significantly over $2K.

The Cap'n

[Trekkor]

A six is very alluring, but every thread tells me it is out of my budget

People will tell you it's $10k plus. It's not.

Find a good running motor and the conversion is an additional $2k.
I've done it for $4k.


carry on...


KT

[Rand]

A six is very alluring, but every thread tells me it is out of my budget

People will tell you it's $10k plus. It's not.

Find a good running motor and the conversion is an additional $2k.
I've done it for $4k.


carry on...


KT

Oh, but it is. Any six you really want is going to be way more than $4k. Hey Trek, how much have you spent on that six since the first $4k? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

Chris, what is your budget?

[brant]

Yeah trekkor. Your 4k build practically dropped the motor when its mount broke the 1st and I believe again the 2nd time again. A lot of that build jhad to be fixed. How much has it cost now? 10k is more realistic.

[chrisg]

Chris, what is your budget?

$5-6k for a complete, running motor (short block built by someone other than me) if it would be a happy, long lived , fun, motor with my existing L- jet would be fine. But I do want torque. I like torque for the street. I'm not a big hp guy, I've actually learned over the years on the track and street, with cars and bikes, that I probably have more (and safer) fun with lower powered stuff. But I do like torque especially on the street where you can't run crazy corner speed sanely all the time.
As a small business guy I totally understand labor costs, overhead, and things taking longer to do than the uniformed might think it does, but I was still looking to explain to myself why this humble little motor that gets picked on so much for it's VW heritage still costs this much to build. Just uneducated about what it takes to build them and as always, probably wanting more than I can afford.
Just always trying to tell myself that staying with the Type 4 is the way to go.

[Mike Bellis]

Call mark at Original Customs. I'm sure he could build something for you.

http://originalcustoms.com/

[Rand]

5-6k =
Money-pit six. (earn it and love it)
Fresh new 2056.
You be the judge.

If your career is looking up, go six! You know you want it and you'll never regret it.

If the budget rules, that 2056 will serve you well. And it just might surprise you. It will even have more torque than the small six.

[damesandhotrods]

I've been here for a while off and on and really hope to have time to get my car back on the road some day while I still have reflexes and my wits about me so I can drive.

This pretty much answers your question. This isn’t the voice of someone that wants to spend time engineering a Subaru transplant or trying to scrape parts together to do a -6 on the cheap.

When the time comes, I plan on going with a 2056 from McMark. I would like a Porsche 6 as much as anyone but I’d rather drive my car then stare at boxes of parts dreaming of the day I can.

[Bleyseng]

A 2056 with a better cam and EFI (115hp) is a hot setup and is plenty for most folks who drive the street. Its what Porsche should have built in the first place and the 914 would've sold even better back then.

[EdwardBlume]

I have a 2500 mile 2056 FI in my car now, and its plenty fun. I would say that you can properly augment 115-120 hp with a tight suspension and have a good fun car.

I'm also in the process of rebuilding the numbers matching GA, and I'm going right back to the 2056 combo, but I'm debating running 40s instead of FI. I'm not a purist.

[somd914]

Other things to consider - with a six comes potentially the need to beef up or at least the desire to re-gear the tranny, then suspension upgrades (though cheap relatively speaking). Then you'll want want wide wheels/tires to get the power to the pavement which also means flares. Then you'll want seats to keep you planted during the twisties... It never ends...

Seriously though, there are likely "little" issues that you have on your to-do list, some of which will turn into bigger issues once you dive in. There are also likely other upgrades you desire. If you have the budget ($$$ and time) for them great, if not you might want want to consider a 2056 build over a six. I'd love to have a six, but I think I'll just save my money and get my six with a 911, in the meantime I'll stick with my 2056.

[scotty b]

I've only driven my GA 2.0 w/ l jet, and it was foot on the floor slow.



Firts off, figure out what is wrong here to begin with. It will most likely be alot cheaper than a new engine. A 2.0, while not a racecar, is still quite peppy. Also, what are tyou comparing " foot on the floor slow " too ? A new Vette ? a 71 Barrcuda ? Ifso then you'll never be happy with a 4 banger

[jimkelly]

it is your car - so do with it as you please.

that said - you seem to be a good candidate for a suby eng/trans conversion.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=191930
buy a complete suby car for $1500+- and IMI101's stuff $3000+-

how ever you decide to proceed - don't forget that if your tub has rust - repairing it could set you back $1000's easy.

and if you car's parts are 40 years old - suspension and brakes will run $3000 in parts alone.

think it thru from head to toe before buying anything.

yes, giving up the front trunk sucks, but you have to consider all the facts. how often will you drive it, how much stuff will you typically be carrying around, etc. narrow spare tire will take up half rear trunk.

THE SUBARU EZ30 ENGINE VIDEO CLINCHER

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAfQMPtz2-k


jim

[ww914]

OK, I've searched and I'm tired of going through old threads so excuse me if this has been done too many time before.
I've been here for a while off and on and really hope to have time to get my car back on the road some day while I still have reflexes and my wits about me so I can drive. I am constantly thinking about how I will build it. I need more counseling in the motor department. Educate me again about what it is that make building a type 4 cost so damn much? I see where parts are becoming scarce and there is the usual machining and balancing to be done and maybe I am ignorant to building an aircooled VW motor, but damn!
I'd love to keep my car with an aircooled motor, be it VW or Porsche (fantasy), but I also want torque and hopefully FI (carbs seem so archaic, not to mention all the ethanol problems we experience; my carbed motorcycles hate the crap, I'm tied of cleaning jets!)
A six is very alluring, but every thread tells me it is out of my budget and I really am OK with keeping the Type 4. A 2056 w/ fi cam (most likely built by McMark) is really my most likely route but wonder if the cost vs. satisfaction will be there. A 2270 sounds more tempting to me, but then there is the fi problem (cost)
My real question is why does even the 2056 cost so damn much? or am I just not realizing how bitchin' a $5-6K 2056 w/factory fi will be. I've only driven my GA 2.0 w/ l jet, and it was foot on the floor slow.
I keep going back to the Suby conversion at that point but it just seems wrong and the radiator set ups I've seen just don't sit well with me.
Keeping it aircooled just seems like the right thing to do. Am I just being cheap?

All excellent advice so far. The most important point made so far is that once you get into it, the costs just keep on multiplying. If you just want to do a happy little motor, go with a 2056. Captn' Krusty can do that and he is fairly local (Santa Maria). If you think that may not be enough, go with a 2270 by McMark. I think you will be pleased, I am. I am close by in Arroyo Grande, so if you would like to try my carbureted 2270, let me know. But beware, you will love it. All it takes is more money.

[somd914]

might want to check out this link:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=198322

[914Eric]

Here is a question I've had for a while which fits into this thread.

I don't think I have ever seen a stock 1971cc build. Why is the stock build always 2056cc. That small 4% increase in displacement really doesn't give much extra...so why?

It's like re-sleeving a 250cc dirt bike out to a 260cc. Hardly worth the trouble.

What am I missing?

[chrisg]

I've only driven my GA 2.0 w/ l jet, and it was foot on the floor slow.
Firts off, figure out what is wrong here to begin with. It will most likely be alot cheaper than a new engine. A 2.0, while not a racecar, is still quite peppy. Also, what are tyou comparing " foot on the floor slow " too ? A new Vette ? a 71 Barrcuda ? Ifso then you'll never be happy with a 4 banger

For the record I had a typo there and it's a GC. It was all healthy when I was still driving it but I just think it can be so much more with at least a better cam and as long as I'm going that route......
And yes, I have been driving a late '90's Mustang after having a not-much-torque NA 2nd gen RX-7 and I really enjoy torque for the street now. The Mustang is a total tank, but that's another story.


I am close by in Arroyo Grande, so if you would like to try my carbureted 2270, let me know. But beware, you will love it. All it takes is more money.

I'll have to take you up on that offer one of these days. I'm afraid I will love it too much. But it would be nice to compare it to a 2056 w/ fi cam.

A six is totally out of my budget. I've read enough threads here over the years and know there is no stopping with just a motor and my plan is to just freshen and improve on the rest of the four cyl. suspension and brakes. Going overboard would eat up body and paint budget and all the other things I probably don't know I'm going to redo yet.
I do realize the 2056 w/fi is probably my best route and will probably please the heck out of me, but just to help put it over the top if McMark or anybody else wants to chime in here, on how much more is involved with a 2270 (a lot more labor? More $ in the heads?). Is there a round number one can put on that? I'd be needing to go carbs for a couple years with that route also. Not crazy about that but maybe unduly so.