OK, I've searched and I'm tired of going through old threads so excuse me if this has been done too many time before.
I've been here for a while off and on and really hope to have time to get my car back on the road some day while I still have reflexes and my wits about me so I can drive. I am constantly thinking about how I will build it. I need more counseling in the motor department. Educate me again about what it is that make building a type 4 cost so damn much? I see where parts are becoming scarce and there is the usual machining and balancing to be done and maybe I am ignorant to building an aircooled VW motor, but damn!
I'd love to keep my car with an aircooled motor, be it VW or Porsche (fantasy), but I also want torque and hopefully FI (carbs seem so archaic, not to mention all the ethanol problems we experience; my carbed motorcycles hate the crap, I'm tied of cleaning jets!)
A six is very alluring, but every thread tells me it is out of my budget and I really am OK with keeping the Type 4. A 2056 w/ fi cam (most likely built by McMark) is really my most likely route but wonder if the cost vs. satisfaction will be there. A 2270 sounds more tempting to me, but then there is the fi problem (cost)
My real question is why does even the 2056 cost so damn much? or am I just not realizing how bitchin' a $5-6K 2056 w/factory fi will be. I've only driven my GA 2.0 w/ l jet, and it was foot on the floor slow.
I keep going back to the Suby conversion at that point but it just seems wrong and the radiator set ups I've seen just don't sit well with me.
Keeping it aircooled just seems like the right thing to do. Am I just being cheap?

Parts are getting expensive., More often than not, there is a fair amount of machine work needed on the heads, if not complete replacement. Do a proper build on a 350 and you'll have just as much in it. DO a proper build on a Suby and you'll have as much in it. Do a proper build on a 911 and you'll have 2-3x in it.

Mark would definitely be the right choice

$5-6K gets you a pretty much top of the line STOCK rebuild from me. Not full-on top, but reasonably close. The heads alone are significantly over $2K.

The Cap'n

People will tell you it's $10k plus. It's not.

Find a good running motor and the conversion is an additional $2k.
I've done it for $4k.


carry on...


KT

Oh, but it is. Any six you really want is going to be way more than $4k. Hey Trek, how much have you spent on that six since the first $4k?

Chris, what is your budget?

Yeah trekkor. Your 4k build practically dropped the motor when its mount broke the 1st and I believe again the 2nd time again. A lot of that build jhad to be fixed. How much has it cost now? 10k is more realistic.

$5-6k for a complete, running motor (short block built by someone other than me) if it would be a happy, long lived , fun, motor with my existing L- jet would be fine. But I do want torque. I like torque for the street. I'm not a big hp guy, I've actually learned over the years on the track and street, with cars and bikes, that I probably have more (and safer) fun with lower powered stuff. But I do like torque especially on the street where you can't run crazy corner speed sanely all the time.
As a small business guy I totally understand labor costs, overhead, and things taking longer to do than the uniformed might think it does, but I was still looking to explain to myself why this humble little motor that gets picked on so much for it's VW heritage still costs this much to build. Just uneducated about what it takes to build them and as always, probably wanting more than I can afford.
Just always trying to tell myself that staying with the Type 4 is the way to go.

Call mark at Original Customs. I'm sure he could build something for you.

http://originalcustoms.com/

5-6k =
Money-pit six. (earn it and love it)
Fresh new 2056.
You be the judge.

If your career is looking up, go six! You know you want it and you'll never regret it.

If the budget rules, that 2056 will serve you well. And it just might surprise you. It will even have more torque than the small six.

This pretty much answers your question. This isn’t the voice of someone that wants to spend time engineering a Subaru transplant or trying to scrape parts together to do a -6 on the cheap.

When the time comes, I plan on going with a 2056 from McMark. I would like a Porsche 6 as much as anyone but I’d rather drive my car then stare at boxes of parts dreaming of the day I can.

A 2056 with a better cam and EFI (115hp) is a hot setup and is plenty for most folks who drive the street. Its what Porsche should have built in the first place and the 914 would've sold even better back then.

I have a 2500 mile 2056 FI in my car now, and its plenty fun. I would say that you can properly augment 115-120 hp with a tight suspension and have a good fun car.

I'm also in the process of rebuilding the numbers matching GA, and I'm going right back to the 2056 combo, but I'm debating running 40s instead of FI. I'm not a purist.

Other things to consider - with a six comes potentially the need to beef up or at least the desire to re-gear the tranny, then suspension upgrades (though cheap relatively speaking). Then you'll want want wide wheels/tires to get the power to the pavement which also means flares. Then you'll want seats to keep you planted during the twisties... It never ends...

Seriously though, there are likely "little" issues that you have on your to-do list, some of which will turn into bigger issues once you dive in. There are also likely other upgrades you desire. If you have the budget ($$$ and time) for them great, if not you might want want to consider a 2056 build over a six. I'd love to have a six, but I think I'll just save my money and get my six with a 911, in the meantime I'll stick with my 2056.

I've only driven my GA 2.0 w/ l jet, and it was foot on the floor slow.



Firts off, figure out what is wrong here to begin with. It will most likely be alot cheaper than a new engine. A 2.0, while not a racecar, is still quite peppy. Also, what are tyou comparing " foot on the floor slow " too ? A new Vette ? a 71 Barrcuda ? Ifso then you'll never be happy with a 4 banger

it is your car - so do with it as you please.

that said - you seem to be a good candidate for a suby eng/trans conversion.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=191930
buy a complete suby car for $1500+- and IMI101's stuff $3000+-

how ever you decide to proceed - don't forget that if your tub has rust - repairing it could set you back $1000's easy.

and if you car's parts are 40 years old - suspension and brakes will run $3000 in parts alone.

think it thru from head to toe before buying anything.

yes, giving up the front trunk sucks, but you have to consider all the facts. how often will you drive it, how much stuff will you typically be carrying around, etc. narrow spare tire will take up half rear trunk.

THE SUBARU EZ30 ENGINE VIDEO CLINCHER

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAfQMPtz2-k


jim

All excellent advice so far. The most important point made so far is that once you get into it, the costs just keep on multiplying. If you just want to do a happy little motor, go with a 2056. Captn' Krusty can do that and he is fairly local (Santa Maria). If you think that may not be enough, go with a 2270 by McMark. I think you will be pleased, I am. I am close by in Arroyo Grande, so if you would like to try my carbureted 2270, let me know. But beware, you will love it. All it takes is more money.

might want to check out this link:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=198322

Here is a question I've had for a while which fits into this thread.

I don't think I have ever seen a stock 1971cc build. Why is the stock build always 2056cc. That small 4% increase in displacement really doesn't give much extra...so why?

It's like re-sleeving a 250cc dirt bike out to a 260cc. Hardly worth the trouble.

What am I missing?

For the record I had a typo there and it's a GC. It was all healthy when I was still driving it but I just think it can be so much more with at least a better cam and as long as I'm going that route......
And yes, I have been driving a late '90's Mustang after having a not-much-torque NA 2nd gen RX-7 and I really enjoy torque for the street now. The Mustang is a total tank, but that's another story.


I am close by in Arroyo Grande, so if you would like to try my carbureted 2270, let me know. But beware, you will love it. All it takes is more money.

I'll have to take you up on that offer one of these days. I'm afraid I will love it too much. But it would be nice to compare it to a 2056 w/ fi cam.

A six is totally out of my budget. I've read enough threads here over the years and know there is no stopping with just a motor and my plan is to just freshen and improve on the rest of the four cyl. suspension and brakes. Going overboard would eat up body and paint budget and all the other things I probably don't know I'm going to redo yet.
I do realize the 2056 w/fi is probably my best route and will probably please the heck out of me, but just to help put it over the top if McMark or anybody else wants to chime in here, on how much more is involved with a 2270 (a lot more labor? More $ in the heads?). Is there a round number one can put on that? I'd be needing to go carbs for a couple years with that route also. Not crazy about that but maybe unduly so.

A 2.0 motor has Djet, not Ljet FI.

You may be driving a 1.8 liter Ljet which if I recall is the lowest HP of all the motors.

A 2056 can be built by the DIY person (depending upon condition )
1-2k for the head work
1200-1800 for the remaining parts.

30 hours to assemble.
50 hours to assemble a balanced, blueprinted motor.

Those are rough numbers, and I have built more than a few.
Not in business, but I do it for fun.

If you are going to compare a classic Porsche with a modern subaru, you will never be happy.
The shifting will always fall short, and the 0-60 times will always fall short unless you make a larger motor.

For the cool factor, an aircooled porsche gets cooler as it gets older.

And, aside from a race track, I cant find a decent place to really push a 914 to the edge...there are just to many other stupid people on the roads nowadays.


Rich

current motor is a 2.0, motor was swapped at some point and original L-jet was adapted.
Definitely keeping it aircooled. I've pondered the Suby route many times and just can't go there.

My .2 I was also asking the same question ...what can I do to my engine to make more HP...and after looking at the numbers ...Wow my engine was a 1.7
So I was on a look out for a 2.0....found it A member here was doing a V8 conversion. Complete DFI..brain HE...muffler for $700.
So I pick it up...And man...what a difference....

If you really want to have neck snapping acceleration, I’d say eat 20 or 30 mph of top end and drop the gearing.

If a properly tuned 2.0 liter (questionable with your setup honestly) is not enough to make you smile, the difference between a 2.0 liter and a 2056 liter is most likely not going to be worth your efforts.
A 2.0 liter is 94mm cylinder, 71mm stroke.
a 2056 is 96mm cylinder, 71mm stroke.

You may want to go to a 2270 for more torque...
96m pistons (cheaper head work) and 74mm or 78mm stroke,,,,your choice.

Also, a fun motor is a 2.4 liter with 71mm stroke and 104mm pistons.
That power curve seems to fit the 914 nicely.

Power costs more in aircooled.
Power is not "all" in the heads, but they were not a great design to begin with and someone who knows how to port these heads will change your car...in a big way.

If its mainly a street car, dont go for super flowing heads, go for a longer stroke first.
To much flow and too much camshaft will move your power far too high in the RPM range to make it streetable anymore...it actually sucks to drive a car like that.

the 2270 motor is the easiest one to do, but research the rod ratio and keep it on the conservative side to ensure you dont get piston slap and potential binding with the wrong length rods and piston pin height.

EMW will steer you right for the parts...and they have a machine shop also.

price shopping go to European motorwerks....great guys.

I believe they will sell you a turnkey motor also, and so will FAT performance.

Keep in mind that the winning 914 at the Porsche parade, for many years is running a 2.8 liter type 4 motor built by FAT performance.


rich

20% more power then a stock 2.0. More torque. Flat torque curve (dependant on cam).
It's a better all around engine when built properly, and costs the same as a stock rebuild to do.

Zach

Zach,
Thanks for the reply. But I'm guessing the cam, European pistons, head work, and valves have far more to do with the 20% power increase than the 4% additional displacement.

I'm guessing that this might just be one of those "Standards" that arise over decades and nobody really remembers why. Like maybe at one time, only the best pistons could be gotten in 2056cc so that is what everybody did...and it just became a standard.

Its the difference between barely 95hp and 115hp! The cam, valvetrainupgrades, head upgrades and not just going to 96mm pistons that boost the HP and torque.
The ljet will handle the upgrade without any problems but you will have to tune it.

Yeah, but that would be the same for a 2270 or any other displacement upgrade that did not do the other supporting upgrades.

And, as I said, the cost to do a 2056 is about the same as a stock 2.0 build. So why not build the more powerful engine?

Your original post has something revealing...

"I've been here for a while off and on and really hope to have time to get my car back on the road some day while I still have reflexes and my wits about me so I can drive. "

At age 64 I had the bug to start doing DE's and registered for my first one with a bone stock 1.7. Then I spotted "Buttercup" for sale here and went that way instead. It's a 2270 stroked out to 2316 and is sooooo satisfying when folks come asking "That's a six, right?"

My advice is to pay attention to the "time" factor and go with a 2270 build. The time and $ to get a six in it is likely much longer -- time that you can be on the track or hauling serious butt on the street. To go 2270, yes, you'll have the expense of a good aftermarket EFI--mega or SDS and you'll enjoy learning about programming it--at least I have. Get the job done by McMark with proper breathing--heads and headers and you won't be able to wipe the grin off of your face when you floor it.

If it fails, it'll be mechanical and a complete "rebuild" runs around $1000-$1500---which is rounding error if you have to rebuild any Porsche six. Another way of thinking about the cost of a rebuild is it's about the same as a couple of DE events. No problem....

$5k for a professionally assembled type 4 2056 is a steal...last time I checked Mark was still honoring that, but I doubt it will be around for much longer. When I was planning my 2056 a year ago I got very close to 5k in just parts and machine work...and that's NOT including induction (Microsquirt FI, SDS, Carbs, etc).

Add at *least* $1k (you can easily double or triple that) for all the while you're in there stuff -- new rubber seals, full exhaust (you won't be able to stomach bolting up your old rusty junk), refreshing engine tin, incidentals like break in oil, filter, fasteners, upgraded instruments -- need a CHT and oil pressure at a minimum IMO.

If you'd like to know what's involved in building a Type 4, check out Van's amazing website documenting his type 4 build. He went down some rabbit holes, but it's a good overview of the process.

Also, IMO, a 6 is not an option unless you're willing to re-engineer the car as others have stated -- brakes, suspension, wheels/tires, body etc. It would be comparable in price for you to put a rebuilt type 4 in your car AND find yourself a nice 911SC driver than to put a six in your teener the right way...and you could easily get your money out of one or the other if it ever came to that.

Good luck and have fun.

Rich

My mount broke one time and I repaired it at no cost.
Still fine~

The original motor let go after a few years of track and a/x use.

I bought the current motor for $3k, moved all the parts, carbs, headers over and spent a small amount on re-jetting the Webers.

If this motor blows up, a good used 2.7-3.0 can be had for $3-4k.



Nope, nothing else.
Just the mount.


KT

Chris, check out our 2.0 type 4 in the paddock section.
it's basically a stock rebuild using the euro c/r pistons.
"In car 914" 914-4 Willow springs.
Not too expensive, reliable for weekend track use, or daily driver.
Marty

I'd be thrilled to have another 914-4 someday, don't get me wrong.

In fact I have a 1200cc VW based project I'll tell you all about before long...


KT

The air-cooled is the right thing to do. I am half way through a build to make a 2056 from an extra 1.7. Since I also want to put in new synchros it looks like I will be in at 3-4 grand. But I am also doing as much as I can myself which includes some machine work. So that gives you a low end cost, since it is almost entirely parts. The real problem area for me is the repeated $200 items, like the silly valve adjusters, or the cam, or etc. They really really add up fast! Good luck, were all pulling for you.

I am a fan of the budget 6 build ...like Trekkor...but ...
Here is my thoughts
keep your eyes peeled for a crashed sc or a yucky targa with a nice 3.0 in it
keep your eyes peeled for conversion parts, ... sell the remaining peices
Get out to the "good" doctors tranny affair.... build up the 901

in the mean time keep driving/ nursing that tired four

So, I'm still pondering..... for those who have already deliberated this matter, is the cost of doing a 2270 over a 2056, not withstanding FI decisions, or carbs (which I do not want to do), much more? I haven't really had time to researched this as parts vs. parts yet so I apologize if this is a no brainer question to some, just something still on my mind and not sure if the build process is much more involved.
For the record for those that have chimed in; I'd love to do a six but I just don't see the realistic budget to do so and I think the whole balance of the 4 package with existing parts just makes sense.

For me - wanted a 2270. Who doesn't.

But, I had never rebuild an engine, aircooled or otherwise. and money was short. And a 2056 came up for sale (which I ended up needing to fully rebuild)...

After I get my car running with MSII this year, and get my Jeep running, I will build that 2270. But a good hill, a standing start and rowing through 1st, 2nd and 3rd ALWAYS brings a smile to my face with the 2056. Its a great little engine.

Zach

I agree with Zach about the 2056 with other enhancements. Mine certainly has a lot more power than the stock engine.

But, if I were to do it all again, I'd spend the extra $8-900 and go for the 2270.
As I look at it with 20/20 hindsight, the 2056 with cam, compression, other headwork, machining and lightened flywheel was the big chunk of change and was good for 20? HP. the next 20-25 hp could have been pretty cheap.