Type 4 build cost, educate me Options

[r_towle]

A 2.0 motor has Djet, not Ljet FI.

You may be driving a 1.8 liter Ljet which if I recall is the lowest HP of all the motors.

A 2056 can be built by the DIY person (depending upon condition )
1-2k for the head work
1200-1800 for the remaining parts.

30 hours to assemble.
50 hours to assemble a balanced, blueprinted motor.

Those are rough numbers, and I have built more than a few.
Not in business, but I do it for fun.

If you are going to compare a classic Porsche with a modern subaru, you will never be happy.
The shifting will always fall short, and the 0-60 times will always fall short unless you make a larger motor.

For the cool factor, an aircooled porsche gets cooler as it gets older.

And, aside from a race track, I cant find a decent place to really push a 914 to the edge...there are just to many other stupid people on the roads nowadays.


Rich

[chrisg]

A 2.0 motor has Djet, not Ljet FI.

You may be driving a 1.8 liter Ljet which if I recall is the lowest HP of all the motors.

A 2056 can be built by the DIY person (depending upon condition )
1-2k for the head work
1200-1800 for the remaining parts.

30 hours to assemble.
50 hours to assemble a balanced, blueprinted motor.

Those are rough numbers, and I have built more than a few.
Not in business, but I do it for fun.

If you are going to compare a classic Porsche with a modern subaru, you will never be happy.
The shifting will always fall short, and the 0-60 times will always fall short unless you make a larger motor.

For the cool factor, an aircooled porsche gets cooler as it gets older.

And, aside from a race track, I cant find a decent place to really push a 914 to the edge...there are just to many other stupid people on the roads nowadays.


Rich

current motor is a 2.0, motor was swapped at some point and original L-jet was adapted.
Definitely keeping it aircooled. I've pondered the Suby route many times and just can't go there.

[oldschool]

My .2 I was also asking the same question ...what can I do to my engine to make more HP...and after looking at the numbers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) ...Wow my engine was a 1.7
So I was on a look out for a 2.0....found it A member here was doing a V8 conversion. Complete DFI..brain HE...muffler for $700.
So I pick it up...And man...what a difference....

[damesandhotrods]

If you really want to have neck snapping acceleration, I’d say eat 20 or 30 mph of top end and drop the gearing.

[r_towle]

A 2.0 motor has Djet, not Ljet FI.

You may be driving a 1.8 liter Ljet which if I recall is the lowest HP of all the motors.

A 2056 can be built by the DIY person (depending upon condition )
1-2k for the head work
1200-1800 for the remaining parts.

30 hours to assemble.
50 hours to assemble a balanced, blueprinted motor.

Those are rough numbers, and I have built more than a few.
Not in business, but I do it for fun.

If you are going to compare a classic Porsche with a modern subaru, you will never be happy.
The shifting will always fall short, and the 0-60 times will always fall short unless you make a larger motor.

For the cool factor, an aircooled porsche gets cooler as it gets older.

And, aside from a race track, I cant find a decent place to really push a 914 to the edge...there are just to many other stupid people on the roads nowadays.


Rich

current motor is a 2.0, motor was swapped at some point and original L-jet was adapted.
Definitely keeping it aircooled. I've pondered the Suby route many times and just can't go there.

If a properly tuned 2.0 liter (questionable with your setup honestly) is not enough to make you smile, the difference between a 2.0 liter and a 2056 liter is most likely not going to be worth your efforts.
A 2.0 liter is 94mm cylinder, 71mm stroke.
a 2056 is 96mm cylinder, 71mm stroke.

You may want to go to a 2270 for more torque...
96m pistons (cheaper head work) and 74mm or 78mm stroke,,,,your choice.

Also, a fun motor is a 2.4 liter with 71mm stroke and 104mm pistons.
That power curve seems to fit the 914 nicely.

Power costs more in aircooled.
Power is not "all" in the heads, but they were not a great design to begin with and someone who knows how to port these heads will change your car...in a big way.

If its mainly a street car, dont go for super flowing heads, go for a longer stroke first.
To much flow and too much camshaft will move your power far too high in the RPM range to make it streetable anymore...it actually sucks to drive a car like that.

the 2270 motor is the easiest one to do, but research the rod ratio and keep it on the conservative side to ensure you dont get piston slap and potential binding with the wrong length rods and piston pin height.

EMW will steer you right for the parts...and they have a machine shop also.

price shopping go to European motorwerks....great guys.

I believe they will sell you a turnkey motor also, and so will FAT performance.

Keep in mind that the winning 914 at the Porsche parade, for many years is running a 2.8 liter type 4 motor built by FAT performance.


rich

[VaccaRabite]

Here is a question I've had for a while which fits into this thread.

I don't think I have ever seen a stock 1971cc build. Why is the stock build always 2056cc. That small 4% increase in displacement really doesn't give much extra...so why?

It's like re-sleeving a 250cc dirt bike out to a 260cc. Hardly worth the trouble.

What am I missing?

20% more power then a stock 2.0. More torque. Flat torque curve (dependant on cam).
It's a better all around engine when built properly, and costs the same as a stock rebuild to do.

Zach

[914Eric]

20% more power then a stock 2.0. More torque. Flat torque curve (dependant on cam).
It's a better all around engine when built properly, and costs the same as a stock rebuild to do.

Zach

Zach,
Thanks for the reply. But I'm guessing the cam, European pistons, head work, and valves have far more to do with the 20% power increase than the 4% additional displacement.

I'm guessing that this might just be one of those "Standards" that arise over decades and nobody really remembers why. Like maybe at one time, only the best pistons could be gotten in 2056cc so that is what everybody did...and it just became a standard.

[Bleyseng]

Its the difference between barely 95hp and 115hp! The cam, valvetrainupgrades, head upgrades and not just going to 96mm pistons that boost the HP and torque.
The ljet will handle the upgrade without any problems but you will have to tune it.

[VaccaRabite]

20% more power then a stock 2.0. More torque. Flat torque curve (dependant on cam).
It's a better all around engine when built properly, and costs the same as a stock rebuild to do.

Zach

Zach,
Thanks for the reply. But I'm guessing the cam, European pistons, head work, and valves have far more to do with the 20% power increase than the 4% additional displacement.

I'm guessing that this might just be one of those "Standards" that arise over decades and nobody really remembers why. Like maybe at one time, only the best pistons could be gotten in 2056cc so that is what everybody did...and it just became a standard.

Yeah, but that would be the same for a 2270 or any other displacement upgrade that did not do the other supporting upgrades.

And, as I said, the cost to do a 2056 is about the same as a stock 2.0 build. So why not build the more powerful engine?

[wndsrfr]

Your original post has something revealing...

"I've been here for a while off and on and really hope to have time to get my car back on the road some day while I still have reflexes and my wits about me so I can drive. "

At age 64 I had the bug to start doing DE's and registered for my first one with a bone stock 1.7. Then I spotted "Buttercup" for sale here and went that way instead. It's a 2270 stroked out to 2316 and is sooooo satisfying when folks come asking "That's a six, right?"

My advice is to pay attention to the "time" factor and go with a 2270 build. The time and $ to get a six in it is likely much longer -- time that you can be on the track or hauling serious butt on the street. To go 2270, yes, you'll have the expense of a good aftermarket EFI--mega or SDS and you'll enjoy learning about programming it--at least I have. Get the job done by McMark with proper breathing--heads and headers and you won't be able to wipe the grin off of your face when you floor it.

If it fails, it'll be mechanical and a complete "rebuild" runs around $1000-$1500---which is rounding error if you have to rebuild any Porsche six. Another way of thinking about the cost of a rebuild is it's about the same as a couple of DE events. No problem.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[rwilner]

$5k for a professionally assembled type 4 2056 is a steal...last time I checked Mark was still honoring that, but I doubt it will be around for much longer. When I was planning my 2056 a year ago I got very close to 5k in just parts and machine work...and that's NOT including induction (Microsquirt FI, SDS, Carbs, etc).

Add at *least* $1k (you can easily double or triple that) for all the while you're in there stuff -- new rubber seals, full exhaust (you won't be able to stomach bolting up your old rusty junk), refreshing engine tin, incidentals like break in oil, filter, fasteners, upgraded instruments -- need a CHT and oil pressure at a minimum IMO.

If you'd like to know what's involved in building a Type 4, check out Van's amazing website documenting his type 4 build. He went down some rabbit holes, but it's a good overview of the process.

Also, IMO, a 6 is not an option unless you're willing to re-engineer the car as others have stated -- brakes, suspension, wheels/tires, body etc. It would be comparable in price for you to put a rebuilt type 4 in your car AND find yourself a nice 911SC driver than to put a six in your teener the right way...and you could easily get your money out of one or the other if it ever came to that.

Good luck and have fun.

Rich

[Trekkor]

My mount broke one time and I repaired it at no cost.
Still fine~

The original motor let go after a few years of track and a/x use.

I bought the current motor for $3k, moved all the parts, carbs, headers over and spent a small amount on re-jetting the Webers.

If this motor blows up, a good used 2.7-3.0 can be had for $3-4k.

A lot of that build had to be fixed.

Nope, nothing else.
Just the mount.


KT

This post has been edited by Trekkor: Nov 25 2012, 08:11 PM

[Maltese Falcon]

Chris, check out our 2.0 type 4 in the paddock section.
it's basically a stock rebuild using the euro c/r pistons.
"In car 914" 914-4 Willow springs.
Not too expensive, reliable for weekend track use, or daily driver.
Marty

[Trekkor]

I'd be thrilled to have another 914-4 someday, don't get me wrong.

In fact I have a 1200cc VW based project I'll tell you all about before long...


KT

[worn]

OK, I've searched and I'm tired of going through old threads so excuse me if this has been done too many time before.
I've been here for a while off and on and really hope to have time to get my car back on the road some day while I still have reflexes and my wits about me so I can drive. I am constantly thinking about how I will build it. I need more counseling in the motor department. Educate me again about what it is that make building a type 4 cost so damn much? I see where parts are becoming scarce and there is the usual machining and balancing to be done and maybe I am ignorant to building an aircooled VW motor, but damn!
I'd love to keep my car with an aircooled motor, be it VW or Porsche (fantasy), but I also want torque and hopefully FI (carbs seem so archaic, not to mention all the ethanol problems we experience; my carbed motorcycles hate the crap, I'm tied of cleaning jets!)
A six is very alluring, but every thread tells me it is out of my budget and I really am OK with keeping the Type 4. A 2056 w/ fi cam (most likely built by McMark) is really my most likely route but wonder if the cost vs. satisfaction will be there. A 2270 sounds more tempting to me, but then there is the fi problem (cost)
My real question is why does even the 2056 cost so damn much? or am I just not realizing how bitchin' a $5-6K 2056 w/factory fi will be. I've only driven my GA 2.0 w/ l jet, and it was foot on the floor slow.
I keep going back to the Suby conversion at that point but it just seems wrong and the radiator set ups I've seen just don't sit well with me.
Keeping it aircooled just seems like the right thing to do. Am I just being cheap?

The air-cooled is the right thing to do. I am half way through a build to make a 2056 from an extra 1.7. Since I also want to put in new synchros it looks like I will be in at 3-4 grand. But I am also doing as much as I can myself which includes some machine work. So that gives you a low end cost, since it is almost entirely parts. The real problem area for me is the repeated $200 items, like the silly valve adjusters, or the cam, or etc. They really really add up fast! Good luck, were all pulling for you.

[pete-stevers]

I am a fan of the budget 6 build ...like Trekkor...but ...
Here is my thoughts
keep your eyes peeled for a crashed sc or a yucky targa with a nice 3.0 in it
keep your eyes peeled for conversion parts, ... sell the remaining peices
Get out to the "good" doctors tranny affair.... build up the 901

in the mean time keep driving/ nursing that tired four

[chrisg]

So, I'm still pondering..... for those who have already deliberated this matter, is the cost of doing a 2270 over a 2056, not withstanding FI decisions, or carbs (which I do not want to do), much more? I haven't really had time to researched this as parts vs. parts yet so I apologize if this is a no brainer question to some, just something still on my mind and not sure if the build process is much more involved.
For the record for those that have chimed in; I'd love to do a six but I just don't see the realistic budget to do so and I think the whole balance of the 4 package with existing parts just makes sense.

[VaccaRabite]

For me - wanted a 2270. Who doesn't.

But, I had never rebuild an engine, aircooled or otherwise. and money was short. And a 2056 came up for sale (which I ended up needing to fully rebuild)...

After I get my car running with MSII this year, and get my Jeep running, I will build that 2270. But a good hill, a standing start and rowing through 1st, 2nd and 3rd ALWAYS brings a smile to my face with the 2056. Its a great little engine.

Zach

[JimN73]

I agree with Zach about the 2056 with other enhancements. Mine certainly has a lot more power than the stock engine.

But, if I were to do it all again, I'd spend the extra $8-900 and go for the 2270.
As I look at it with 20/20 hindsight, the 2056 with cam, compression, other headwork, machining and lightened flywheel was the big chunk of change and was good for 20? HP. the next 20-25 hp could have been pretty cheap.