Down and dirty edumbacation on suby conversion, Just quick facts Options

[Mark Henry]

It's a vanagon westy conversion, but it should be close enough for the guys who have done the 914.
Just need some ballpark costs right now.


What's the best engine(s)? cost ballpark high/low?
What should be done on engine (belts, maintenance) while it out?
Conversion parts needed (KEP, etc.)?
Time to get everything done (with a equipped shop and "get 'er done" mindset)?
What am i missing?


I see on the net the pro full meal deal with a fresh rebuilt 1.8T VW engine is $12K, $6K for a very complete install kit (no engine) with new heater core and lots of new engine bits as well.
I'm trying to compare (ballpark) high/low costs.

Thanks

[strawman]

Hi Mark --

I'm currently doing a Suby-914 conversion, but I have completed two Vanagon conversions in the past: 1) Converted a 1982 Vanagon Westy Diesel to 1985 Golf 1.8 8-valve gasoline engine in 1998-99, and 2) Converted a 1986 Vanagon Syncro Westy to 1994 Subaru Legacy in 2003-04.

By far the Subaru conversion was superior set-up of the two, and Suby parts are easy to find and relatively cheap. Kennedy Engineering sells kits that include as little as you need to make it work, or as much as you need to even pass California emissions. I selected the minimalist option 'cause I'm a CSOB. I paid Kennedy ~$900 for the conversion parts, paid Small Car Performance about $500 for various parts, bought a wrecked 1994 Subaru Legacy sedan for $450 (with ~110k miles and sold unneeded parts for ~$500!), and then cheap-assed my way through the conversion by obtaining stuff on Ebay, Craigslist and newspaper ads (remember those?). I didn't skimp on the Small Car exhaust header, which I had ceramic-coated.

The plain-Jane Subaru EJ22 engine from the 1990-94 Legacy only has 137 hp, but it is the easiest-to-pass-smog conversion in California, but I don't know your rules in Canada. The higher horsepower options (EJ25 has 165hp, the EJ33 six-cylinder has 240hp, turbocharged range from 160 to over 300 from the factory) are much more spendy and complicated. Regardless, my 137-hp "monster" would pull my loaded Syncro Westy (two kids, wife, dogs, camping stuff, etc.) over the steepest parts of Donner Pass in the Sierra Mountains at 50 mph with slightly oversized tires... the stock VW engine was lucky to keep 30 mph on the steepest parts. And it was quieter, more reliable and got better fuel mileage to boot!

If you're considering this conversion, I strongly recommend you become a member of Yahoo Suby-Vanagon Group. Once a member, you can download all kinds of files that detail wiring harness cuts, pics of DIY modifications, etc. I bought the Syncro Westy in 2003 for $6500 and sold the Wasserleaker engine for $1100. I ended up selling that converted Syncro Westy for $10k in 2006, but now wish I woulda kept it (they're worth their weight in gold now!!!).

Cost of the engine depends on what you're looking for, and if you've got time to look for a replacement or need one NOW. From the time I located the wrecked Legacy until I had the converted Vanagon on the road took about three months of weekend work and some evenings. If I bought everything first and had it ready to go, it would probably have taken three weeks, but I spent a lot of time scrounging for parts and making my own parts (i.e., modified wiring harness, brazed my own coolant pipes, made my own brackets, etc.) I completed it in my driveway in Tahoe City, CA without any cover in the fall weather, so there were days of rain that I just stared at it through the window. I spent around $300 for a new OEM water pump, new seals/o-rings and new little connector hoses from Subaru -- and I'd definitely recommend doing that while the engine is out and easy to access.

Best of luck!

Geoff

[Mark Henry]

Cool Geoff
That's sort of what I'm up to, one for myself but I also have a customer who wants me to do the same to his Westy. To speed up install time I'd interested to see what was ready built.
3 weeks =120 hours so I'm in the ballpark on labour.

If the westy is 25 years old + there is no smog here.

We have a JDM store local and they have ej25 for under $1k with 3 months. It's a complete engine but will it run like that or do I need bit (wiring and/or ECU) off a donor car?

http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-a...QAdIdZ361531056

[76-914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) That's a sweet N/A choice. Tons of torque, too!

[yeahmag]

I have that same motor in my Legacy wagon. While it's out put on new head gaskets, timing belt, etc... They have a tendency to develop external leaks on the head gasket. Did mine in my driveway about 2 years and 20K miles ago.

[Ductech]

Remember that the heater lines are the control for the thermostat... On all Subaru motors that means the heater lines supply hot water to the thermostat. That one catches some by surprise.

[a914622]

Haveing done the vanagon to suby conversion, I would stay with the 2.5 gen2 or 2000 and later. The dohc 2.5 are problamatic do to there funky rods and the use of a too small oil pump. I would stay away from the 2.2s and the 3.3 svx. 2.2 is short on power but if you get a doner one the heads and intake and wire harness can all be run on a 2.5 short block and makes a ton of tork. google frankenmotor subaru. The 3.3 have to much power for the gears in the vanagon boxes. They are a fabuuuuluuus motor just wrong for the gearing.

Venders. Rocky mountain westy or Kennedy for hardwear. Metric motors in Ut. did my harness but the yahoo group has step by step instructions. I would avoid Small car. I had issues that involved fire and his work! And his exahust WILL crack within the first year! Look at Stan's headers. The stinger is the wrong ecu for the vanagon conversion as there is no input for a knock sensor. Given the vanagon can change weight by 1200 lbs over night you need a knock sensor. Stock seems to work best.

$$. Jdm is a good way of going but you should be able to find a good motor with harness for under 1.5k or find a beat or highmilage 03 and do the heads and rering it cheap. Hardwear anouther 1.5k stuff is starting to pop up used
to so maybe cheaper. Dont pay for a reversed coolant manifold, stock is best, but you should get a turbo pump and plumb an extra line in to work the thermalstat as listed above.

With everything ready to go to swap out could be done in a weekend(2 6hour days or less) But with adding chevy springs to the front with Konis and 16 inch rims and tires , better gearing for the tranny, rear disks, bigger front brakes, new fuel lines, SS coolant lines, ect You could be at it for a year or more!!

Check out the samba as well.


And ya it is worth every penny!! thats why im putting the 3.3 in the 914.

[euro911]

Been reading up on this myself ... I have an '84 Westy that I'd like to pop a Subie into.

I live in Los Angeles County where smog regulations are pretty tough. From what I've read, the pre-'96 2.2L OBD-1 engines are CARB approved for this type of conversion here (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

I'm not in a hurry, so I'm still reading stuff ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Mark Henry]

Been reading up on this myself ... I have an '84 Westy that I'd like to pop a Subie into.

I'm not in a hurry, so I'm still reading stuff ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

I have lots of time as well.
For me I'd have to sell my '67 bus first and for the customer it's a late summer/fall project. It's for his retirement 1-1/2 years from now, he and wife are planning a major North and maybe South America tour and wants a super reliable camper.


a914622 thanks for the advice. But what I don't want is to be spending a year on the other guys conversion. Bigger MB wheels would be used.
I'll check out the yahoo group.

On another way at this I was offered a 82 vanagon diesel which would give me a lot of gear for a VW conversion, but I don't think I want to go this route.
I could sell the stuff for a profit, but I also could be stuck with a lot of it.
Pics in this thread:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=198453

[Tom_T]

I've had the potential plan to do a flat-6 WBX swap & related brake/suspension /cooling upgrades into our 88 Westy when the time comes, in order to make it a tow capable vehicle for my wife's "new" restored vintage 1960 Avion T20 travel trailer (sim. to Airstrams of the day).

But at the all in prices I'm seeing in these links everyone has posted above, it almost sounds like and early 996/986 flat 6 waterboxer & transaxle swap with the brake & suspension goodies from a wrecked one with good bones would be as good a engine swap for either 986>914 & 996>Westy/Vanagon as existing mid or rear engined hotter powerplants.

.... i.e.: $15-20k to have a shop do it right & warranty it for a reasonable time, as I don't want to fuch it up nor do I have the time & interest at this stage of life.

So it sounds like all of the mods needed to add a Suby FWD which sits on top of the side-slinger transaxle into a Vanagon with less mods/parts may be close to a wash on a more costly Porsche waterboxer 6 & have the Porsche transaxle capable of handling the added power.

And I really don't see much advantage to doing a 137 HP 2.2L WBX-4 Subie that would be CA smog legal for $10-15-20K with only a 6 month warranty.....

....when GoWesty sells a plug-n-play VW bored/stroked/built 2.1L Vanagon to 2.5L WBX-4 with 125 HP & 175 Lb/Ft TQ & a 4 year/48 mo. warranty for $7000 + $500 for the warranty = $7500 + whatever installation & coolant repair costs would be needed (& coolant redo probably needed anyway by that point) -

http://webmail.earthlink.net/wam/printable...mp;x=-124570940

So I don't get the Subagon thing, unless it's just to do it, or you want to play with swaps in your own garage. ....nothing against Mark doing this work for his client, but from my perspective in CA with our smog limits - I just don't get it.

For us - wanting something to tow my wife's trailer little 2800-3000 lb loaded TTW braked trailer, & she asking me if her Westy could tow it or modified to do so - I don't see an advantage in throwing $10-20k at the project, when we could buy a separate tow capable car/SUV in a 928 or early Cayenne for that money!!??

So Mark's topic has helped make my decision....
...well, for now anyway, cuz I still think a Porsche 996/997/991 flat 6 WBX + AT would be a cool Porshagon!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Dr Evil]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[DBCooper]

I don't know about Westy conversion prices, Tom, but those seem really high. Subaru engines tend to be a quarter or less the price of Porsche, and the other conversion costs are about the same. But you're looking to tow a full-sized camping trailer with a Westy? Really? I didn't know people with VW vans towed anything big, but if that's the criterion then yes, you'd probably be better off with a Cayenne, or even a cheap used Econoline on the side. I have one for motorcycles and camping (it's lockable), and towing, and it works great.


EDIT: I just looked up conversion prices, and a turn-key 2.5 Subaru conversion is quoted at $9800, including the engine, at http://www.vanaru.com/prod2.htm. I don't know them, just the first hit in a google search, but they appear reputable. That's at least 165 N/A horsepower (more if you want it) and a LOT better reliability and longevity than a waterboxer. That WBX engine wasn't VW's finest hour.

[a914622]

Vanaru does great work! He is on the east coast if i rember right. There is a small cottage ind that has grown up around the vanagon swaps. Northwesty , small car , vanaru , tom shields.

But for 9 grand i would think you would get a factory zero miles long block. Last i checked they ran about 3500.00 from subaruparts,com. I was going to stuff the same engine in the 914 as in the vanagon but desided to go suby big block.

Of course you could always buy a none westy already done and swap out the drive train OR get a westy done and just wory about gas,destination and radio station.

jcl

[Mark Henry]

So I don't get the Subagon thing, unless it's just to do it, or you want to play with swaps in your own garage. ....nothing against Mark doing this work for his client, but from my perspective in CA with our smog limits - I just don't get it.

For us - wanting something to tow my wife's trailer little 2800-3000 lb loaded TTW braked trailer, & she asking me if her Westy could tow it or modified to do so - I don't see an advantage in throwing $10-20k at the project, when we could buy a separate tow capable car/SUV in a 928 or early Cayenne for that money!!??

Well IMHO towing a 3000lb trailer with a 3000lbs vanagon isn't very wise to begin with, no matter how much power it has. If I wanted to haul a big ass trailer I'd just buy a pick-up truck and trailer. (no offence to big ass trailer/PU owners)

Our old '78 westy was great, a daily driver that at a moments notice you could go nomad. We want a vanagon westy because I plan to add a bunk heater for winter camping and skiing. I want to be able to jump in and drive to the rockies for a ski week...in the summer I'm looking for totally remote areas ... but I'm cheap and I'll camp in walmart parking lots on the way if I had to.
I want a very small, totally reliable camper I can drive all the time including the winter. Most of the time it's just me and my two athletic tween kids, the customer is a active retired couple that plan to tour the US and maybe parts of Central America.

I have a '67 bus that I could make fit the bill, but it's to nice to ruin with Canadian winters. I'd rather see someone else enjoy the old bus and I don't give a crap if the Vanagon is totally toast in 15-20 years time.

[Tom_T]

I don't know about Westy conversion prices, Tom, but those seem really high. Subaru engines tend to be a quarter or less the price of Porsche, and the other conversion costs are about the same. But you're looking to tow a full-sized camping trailer with a Westy? Really? I didn't know people with VW vans towed anything big, but if that's the criterion then yes, you'd probably be better off with a Cayenne, or even a cheap used Econoline on the side. I have one for motorcycles and camping (it's lockable), and towing, and it works great.


EDIT: I just looked up conversion prices, and a turn-key 2.5 Subaru conversion is quoted at $9800, including the engine, at http://www.vanaru.com/prod2.htm. I don't know them, just the first hit in a google search, but they appear reputable. That's at least 165 N/A horsepower (more if you want it) and a LOT better reliability and longevity than a waterboxer. That WBX engine wasn't VW's finest hour.

DB & all....

Having owned our 88 Westy since new, I'm only too aware of it's design & materials shortcomings ...... read blown motor (rod thru case top) 1999 at about 130k & top end of the replacement 2.1L WBX4 in `05 at about 190k. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
... it's now at about 240k & still running strong....for now!

So an imminent engine rebuild/replacement wasn't what drove me to look at any immediate Suby replacements, but more comparison to the GoWesty 2.5 option or an upgrade to a WBX6 or ?? - mostly driven by my wife's asking if she could tow "her trailer" with "her car" - the Westy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Between my researching at the KEP & Small Car at the links in the 2nd post here above.....

http://www.kennedyenginc.com/Pages/SubaruVanagonGen.aspx

http://www.smallcar.com/index.php?dispatch...&page_id=11

I'm seeing $6000 + $7450 for a low mileage Suby 2.2 - the one that KEP says has the California CARB/DMV waiver for conversion - that's $13450 + incidentals & options to get a CA smog legal Subagon of only 135 HP & only a 6 month warranty on work done in the PNW - 2000+ miles away from SoCal.

They do also list a 165 HP 2.5L Cal OBDI Special for about the same out the door total which I think requires the more complex DMV/CARB "Referee" route.

Unfortunately, here in CA we're more restricted on what we can do with engine swaps on the post-75 cars - vs 75 & older cars which are smog test/compliance exempted.

There is some guy out here who has a Porsche WBX6 powered Vanagon who tows an Airstream, which I've not seen, but he's a buddy of the vintage Airstream restorer here in Orange who did the PPI on our Avion.

I also looked at the Suby 3.0 & 3.3 WBX6 options to see if they were less or less hassle/cost to get Cal DMV/CARB (Cal Air Resources Board) approval, but it's neither straightforward nor cheap. Plus it really requires a transaxle upgrade for the WBX6 of any flavor, upgraded suspension, trailing arms, etc. & bigger disc brakes all around for both the power increase & any serious towing.

So like I said, I'd rather sink $10-15k in a 928S/S4 to tow our trailer, plus have a fun car to drive "the other 350 days/year" we're not towing! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/happy11.gif)

So - tow this...


with something like these seems better to me....


rather than with our 88 Westy & keep it stock....

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

BTW - the above was the original paint as of this summer, & it's currently getting a full exterior windows/trim/top-off repaint now, with all new seals & key trim bits. If you think the full factory rubber seals set for a 914 is expensive, try doing a Westy with the hard to find window seals with the groove for "chrome" trim today! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[Tom_T]

So I don't get the Subagon thing, unless it's just to do it, or you want to play with swaps in your own garage. ....nothing against Mark doing this work for his client, but from my perspective in CA with our smog limits - I just don't get it.

For us - wanting something to tow my wife's trailer little 2800-3000 lb loaded TTW braked trailer, & she asking me if her Westy could tow it or modified to do so - I don't see an advantage in throwing $10-20k at the project, when we could buy a separate tow capable car/SUV in a 928 or early Cayenne for that money!!??

Well IMHO towing a 3000lb trailer with a 3000lbs vanagon isn't very wise to begin with, no matter how much power it has. If I wanted to haul a big ass trailer I'd just buy a pick-up truck and trailer. (no offence to big ass trailer/PU owners)

Our old '78 westy was great, a daily driver that at a moments notice you could go nomad. We want a vanagon westy because I plan to add a bunk heater for winter camping and skiing. I want to be able to jump in and drive to the rockies for a ski week...in the summer I'm looking for totally remote areas ... but I'm cheap and I'll camp in walmart parking lots on the way if I had to.
I want a very small, totally reliable camper I can drive all the time including the winter. Most of the time it's just me and my two athletic tween kids, the customer is a active retired couple that plan to tour the US and maybe parts of Central America.

I have a '67 bus that I could make fit the bill, but it's to nice to ruin with Canadian winters. I'd rather see someone else enjoy the old bus and I don't give a crap if the Vanagon is totally toast in 15-20 years time.

Mark,

The late WBX Westy like ours is 3670 lbs curb wt. & our owners manual oddly enough rates it to tow up to 2000 lbs of braked trailer (1320 unbraked). That would be foolhardy though, due to both limited brake capacity & a wheezy 95 HP motor! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Tow vehicle weight has nothing to do with what you tow, since a 6000 lb. pick-up/SUV can safely tow a 10-15000 lb trailer, as my neighbor does all the time with his diesel 3/4 ton Chevy Silverado "big-ass truck."

I agree with you on the big ass truck thing too, since we're not fans & a Cayenne mid-size SUV (4000 lbs with a 7800 lb towing capacity IIRC) is as far as I'm willing to bend. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

The Vanagon's that I know of towing a big assed trailer

And before you go to the 928's towing capabilities, it's 3505 lb. curb weight & the Porsche factory rated them all to tow 3527 lbs of braked trailer - which you can see from the pix WAS in fact done in Europe. Porsche even sold the OEM towbar/hitch (ORIS mfgd) & electrical kit through dealers, and it's listed in the 928 PET parts manuals (downloadable pdf for free at the Porsche website).

Moreover, Porsche never spent the money to update the factory manual's towing capacity from the 4.5L 246 HP 1978 928, so the later 300-345 HP 928S/S4/GTS would be more capable. Although, the later 1985 factory ORIS hitch tag lists it as 4189 lbs TTW capacity.

The current 3900 lb Panameras have a factory towing capacity of about 4900 lbs. & offer an electrically retractable hitch (in Europe/ROW at least now).

Our 1960 Avion T20 has new in `07 electric brakes (as originally) & the factory & title list it at 2400 lbs. dry & probably 2800-3000 lbs wet & loaded as restored, so we're well within the 928's capabilities by the factory.

Cars & smaller vehicles can & do tow bigger heavier trailers, as the 1960 Avion brochure pic shows. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[Mark Henry]

I don't have to worry about CARB. For emissions here over 25 years old is totally exempt.
I have a fun summer car and the wife has a SUV.
I'm actually thinking syncro for myself with winches, I plan to go places that rig will never ever see.

[Tom_T]

Sorry to get off track Mark, but my point was to your customer for whom you're doing this work, which you mention he wants full reliability & is obviously paying a shop (yours) to do the work for him.

So those mentioning the cost savings of DIY Suby conversions don't really fit your customer, since he's paying you.

My point is the Suby conversions I've seen only offer a 6-12 month warranty, & AFAIK they won't authorize that work at another shop while your customer is doing their round the country trip.

Whereas, GoWesty will sell their motors with a 4 year/48,000 mile warranty for an "extra" $500 over the motor, to be installed by a professional shop, & the warranty work/replacement can also be done at any professional shop that they approve. They do state that the coolant system needs to be brought back up to spec for the warranty to be effective, which is only smart for long travels anyway.

If I were in your customer's shoes, then I'd want to look into the GoWesty option for the warranty protection reasons alone.

And I am in his shoes - or will be, cuz I'd have my long time mechanics since 1975 at Hans Imports do my work, & even they now recommend the GoWesty rebuilds over other shops out there with only 12 month/12,000 mile warranties.

We traveled every year 1988-02 on a 4-6000 mile XC trip back east to IN/PA/OK or WA/OR/BC, etc. - which is how we got to 240k+/- when my wife only works 2 miles away & it's her DD. So I know about long trips in Westies, & I'd choose the 4/48 GoWesty over any other 12/12 Suby warrantied engine for the insurance of reliability! Nowadays we're only putting 3-5000 miles/year in CA/AZ/NM on the Westy, & are in our 60s, so that should last us just fine - even if we decide to go XC again.

I have no bones in the GoWesty operation, but have just been on the look-out for the inevitable "next engine needed" for our Westy! GoWesty is the FAT Performance or Raby/T-IV of Vanagon engines, but with a real warranty.

Here's some links to check it out....

Engine options -
http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=813

Warranty -
http://www.gowesty.com/view_page.php?name=...Engine_Warranty

Customer feedback on engines -
http://www.gowesty.com/view_customer_feedback.php?id=77

There's more at their website, but you can cruise around to get what you need, then call them to see if you can even do their shop program up in Canada, before you talk to your customer about them.

Good Luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
///////

[strawman]

If I were in your customer's shoes, then I'd want to look into the GoWesty option for the warranty protection reasons alone.

It is still a Wasserboxer engine, which even the the most strident Vanagon owner I've ever met would readily agree was an inferior design and an underpowered engine for a vehicle that weighs as much as a Westy -- almost 5k pounds. The stock EJ22 Subaru ECU can provide simple troubleshooting codes by just connecting two plugs and counting the "blips," and the Select Monitor can be read by any Subaru specialist across the country to provide detailed sensor readings in real-time. I would be surprised if a Subaru shop in BFE couldn't figure out a problem with a Suby-powered Vanagon lickety-split.

I've put over 300k on Subarus and have always maintained my own vehicles. I've also owned two Westies, three other VW vans/Vanagons and countless other air- and water-cooled VWs (my parents sold their semaphore-equipped Oval VW Bug to pay my hospital bill when I was born!).

To each his own... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

P.S.
I live in San Luis Obispo, which is less than 20 miles from GoWesty in Los Osos, CA. Yet there are three Subaru-powered Vanagons in my neighborhood!

[mepstein]

Tow vehicle weight has nothing to do with what you tow.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)