Down and dirty edumbacation on suby conversion, Just quick facts Options

[Mark Henry]

Tow vehicle weight has nothing to do with what you tow.

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Kind of does when your stuck in a mudhole a couple hundred miles from town. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DBCooper]

I'm seeing $6000 + $7450 for a low mileage Suby 2.2 - the one that KEP says has the California CARB/DMV waiver for conversion - that's $13450 + incidentals & options to get a CA smog legal Subagon of only 135 HP & only a 6 month warranty on work done in the PNW - 2000+ miles away from SoCal.

Wow. Not in my world. A month ago I bought that very same engine for $120 on Craigs List. Sixty some thousand miles, a hundred and twenty bucks, a whole lot less than $6000. No warranty, but that's the cost of a WBX gasket set, so if I'm buying engines for that little a failure isn't costing me much, either. I don't know what else to say about that except we apparently shop at very different places.

You linked to the Kennedy site. In a paragraph above what you quoted they say:

"The Subaru engine has proved to be an excellent choice because it fits the compartment like it belongs there and it provides a good increase in horsepower. The Subaru Legacy 2.2 liter displacement is only slightly larger than the waterboxer but it has most of the modern high performance technology including a counterbalanced crank, four- valve design, port injection and a hot wire air flow meter. Kennedy Engineered Products manufactures 81 different kits that fit a hundred different engines to the Vanagon transaxle but nothing fits as well and runs as smoothly as the Subaru in this vehicle. The same basic kit fits 2.2, 2.5, 3.0, 3.3, and EJ 1.8 Subaru engines."

That should explain people's reasoning. And then "Subaru Legacy engines are economical to replace. If you can do the wiring and bolting, then the initial cost is comparable to the price for having a rebuilt VW waterboxer installed. The average wrecking yard price for a low mileage Subaru Legacy engine is about eight hundred dollars, which depends what state you are in."

So it seems to make sense for other people, but I'd imagine a lot of them are at a crossroads where they need to decide to put yet another WBX in there or a Subaru. With similar prices the more reliable Subaru has a clear and simple advantage. You're obviously not at that place, but wait a minute, back to the basics, a Vanagon was never intended to tow a trailer like that. It might even be possible, but I personally would never use a tow vehicle that light for a trailer that big. Not a 928, either. Horsepower isn't the question, tow vehicle weight and stability is. Anything more than a strong breeze will be pushing that rig all over the road. Heck, you know that, you already get the same thing in your Westy on windy days, before you even put a trailer behind it. With two slab-sided vehicles you're making a huge articulated metal kite. Not prudent.

[Tom_T]

Forget towing much with a Vanagon/Westy.....I have! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Strawman - as I said, we've owned our Westy since new & know it's WBX shortcomings - ALL of them - only too well after 25 years living with the car & driving 240k including full cross the USA trips every year! I'm also not questioning the reliability of Subarus, as they're great little cars & drivetrains.

However, folks like me & Mark's customer have a need for something reliable & easily repairable by a shop - not by me/ourselves - if it breaks. So I suggest that the GoWesty 48/48 warranty on a new motor is worth the lack of headaches for some of us a bit older & not wanting to Fuch around on a trip or even around town.

No Suby nor Porsche nor ANY conversion will warranty anywhere near that - 6/6 to 12/12 individual shop warranty is the best I've seen - even on VW WBX rebuilds.

A customer like me & Mark's are "buying" the full gorilla completed key-n-go project, & if reliability is a concern - which it usually is for folks like us - then the security of 48 months 4 years or 48,000 miles is twice as good as the original VW warranty waqs when we bought our van new!

DB - The Suby engine prices I was using were listed on that Small Car link for an already fully REBUILT/reconditioned Suby motors which they listed, with the lowest mileage at $5725.

Again, we're not comparing what the individual shade tree/home garage mechanic does, but rather a customer who is having a shop do all of the work. So the $120 core motor from evil-bay is not gone thru & not the full price to a customer like Mark's or myself.

Apples & oranges....

Mark - if you're going off-road & want to pull out of a mudhole, then go for a 3/4 - 1 ton pick-up with the biggest diesel V* with tons of torque. For the other 75-80
% of people who tow recreational trailers, the TV can & often is lighter than the trailer.

My neighbor has one of those 3/4 ton Silverado with the big diesel V8 which weighs about 6000 lbs, & he's towing a 15-20,000 lb 3 axle toy hauler fully loaded with a Jeep & 3-6 bikes out to the desert with no problems sand nor mudholes! That's a 3-4x trailer to TV weight ratio & it works fine!

Good Luck with your customer - it sounds like an interesting project, & an even more fun & interesting trip! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Tom
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[charliew]

Good luck Tom. All of my neighbors are cowgirls with horse trailers with sleeping quarters. The trailers are aluminum, but they usually haul at least two horses to play at barrel racing. They all use BIGASS trucks with goose neck hitches and they still have early repair bills. My friend hauls these little boxed in trailers all over the 5 state area as a living with a 4x4 new chevy and has already had both front hubs replaced under warranty. Towing trailers is expensive and the heavier the tow vehicle the better as far as reliability in my country boy experience. The old guys around here prefer the early 12 valve cummings diesels and manuals for every day trailer hauling of heavy stuff.

A very unsettling experience is tailwag where the rear vehicle starts trying to pass the front one. Once it starts in my experience the only way to stop it is by speeding up, try that in a underpowered tow vehicle.

My mom and dad were in the central texas travel trailer club for over 25 years and for what I remember the trailer never weighed more than the tow vehicle. My parents were also very conservative on speed.

I use a 91 4x4 3/4 ton 5.7 gas suburban with 1ton rear springs and rear ff axle. It is marginal for pulling my 1600lb electric brake car trailer with a 5000lb tractor or 8000lbs of concrete blocks for short distances.

How well does a warranty work on the side of the road three states away?

You have done a lot of studying though and I hope your traveling and camping experiences are good.

[Mark Henry]

Forget towing much with a Vanagon/Westy.....I have! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


However, folks like me & Mark's customer have a need for something reliable & easily repairable by a shop - not by me/ourselves - if it breaks. So I suggest that the GoWesty 48/48 warranty on a new motor is worth the lack of headaches for some of us a bit older & not wanting to Fuch around on a trip or even around town.

No Suby nor Porsche nor ANY conversion will warranty anywhere near that - 6/6 to 12/12 individual shop warranty is the best I've seen - even on VW WBX rebuilds.

A customer like me & Mark's are "buying" the full gorilla completed key-n-go project, & if reliability is a concern - which it usually is for folks like us - then the security of 48 months 4 years or 48,000 miles is twice as good as the original VW warranty waqs when we bought our van new!

DB - The Suby engine prices I was using were listed on that Small Car link for an already fully REBUILT/reconditioned Suby motors which they listed, with the lowest mileage at $5725.

Again, we're not comparing what the individual shade tree/home garage mechanic does, but rather a customer who is having a shop do all of the work. So the $120 core motor from evil-bay is not gone thru & not the full price to a customer like Mark's or myself.

Apples & oranges....

Tom
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This is one of the reasons the VW 1.8 turbo engine conversion is in the running, except for the conversion bits any VW shop should be able to repair the vehicle. The van would have full documentation on all the special conversion only bits.

Mark - if you're going off-road & want to pull out of a mudhole, then go for a 3/4 - 1 ton pick-up with the biggest diesel V* with tons of torque. For the other 75-80
% of people who tow recreational trailers, the TV can & often is lighter than the trailer.

My neighbor has one of those 3/4 ton Silverado with the big diesel V8 which weighs about 6000 lbs, & he's towing a 15-20,000 lb 3 axle toy hauler fully loaded with a Jeep & 3-6 bikes out to the desert with no problems sand nor mudholes! That's a 3-4x trailer to TV weight ratio & it works fine!

Not at all interested.

[Tom_T]

Mark, if that VW motor would be covered on a warranty at those VW dealerships & independents, then that would be another good option. I can't speak for your customer, but if so, & it's a comparable length 48/48 warranty, then it would fulfill my needs.

Charlie, that's what AAA 200 mile towing is for....on ANY vehicle! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

In fact we were in San Diego in `05 moving our daughter out of her dorm for the summer when the Westy top end fried a valve & we had it towed 100+ miles up to my guy at Hans Imports in Huntington Beach for it's last top end rebuild!

AFAIK the GoWesty warranty covers the cost (maybe on a reimbursement basis) when you're on the road & you can have a breakdown serviced at a VW dealer or a qualified indy shop, but GoWesty may need to give you the okay on it in advance.

However, I haven't read the fine print on their warranty nor talked to anyone who has had to use it "off Rez" with them. I would certainly read it & check it out further with their past engine customers, & have my mechanic do so too (he looked at it preliminarily & AFAIK he's using their rebuilds now over his former LA engine shop with only a 12/12 warranty).

Of course in any case - you're depending on the warranty company staying in business & able to honor those warranties, which is another thing to check out, because I'm pretty sure that GoWesty & most others are using 3rd party warranty insurers to cover their work/products.

I'm not close to pulling the trigger on anything now, but I would certainly suggest Mark do so with his customer as one of the alternatives to explore for their adventure.

We also spend a week in beautiful Kingman AZ on an early trip in `90, when my wife dropped the AT into 1st instead of 2nd to make that big I40 grade & bent a valve. It was still under factory warranty back then, but it doesn't cover those types of user errors - nor would any warranty! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Charlie, you & I are both old enough to remember seeing all those cars towing travel trailers back in the `50s & `60s! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

....& I do recall seeing many a jack-knife accident back in the days of Lucy & Desi towing! Note to self: make sure the wife doesn't load rocks into the trailer. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I agree, that any heavier use of a vehicle as a TV adds stress & advanced wear, just as does AutoX, DD, TT, DE & other tracking....heck even, street racing - which is which vehicles need maintaining & care. We may tow 2-4x 200-400 mile round trips a year in this vintage trailer plan of my wife's, so it won't be more than 10-15% of our 3-5000 annual use (& again, not in the Westy).

Both TVs on my "preferred list" are heavier than our TT at 2800-3000# loaded & that is less than the TVs, 928 is 3505# CW w/ 3527# towing capacity & the Cayenne S is 4800+# CW with a 7700+# TW max, & both have a similarly powerful 4.5 - 5.0+ L & 300+ HP & TQ motor. & with a great independent suspension & big brakes at all 4 corners. Certainly superior to

Our TT would be mated with a Hensley Cub WD/anti-sway hitch & the TV hitch reinforced for the torque of the WD hitch, in order to avoid that jack-knifing you mentioned. And yes, my Dad had taught me that trick to "speed up" to out run the jack-knifing trailer - rather than what most people do - hit the brakes.

Happy & Merry to All! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif)

PS - One of the reasons I decided on getting my used 914 in 1975 after college - over an older `60's 911 or 912 - was it would be my only car & DD, and I'd have to use it on long trips. So I figured that the 914's VW 411/412 based Type IV could be serviced anywhere in the country - even deep in the heart of Charlie's TX - by a VW dealership or independent. In 10 years of DD & trips over 130k miles 12/75 - 5/85, my `73 914-2.0 NEVER failed to get me home & able to get serviced by my guy Hans since `75! Once the clutch cable broke just as I got home from a 1000+ mi trip up north, & I was ready to move it into the garage after unpacking, so I pop-started in 3rd & drove the 1 block to where Hans Imports was from my HB apartment in those days! Cannot beat that kind of reliability!

[Tom_T]

Hey Mark & other Vanagon/Westy types -

Not Subie related & so somewhat OT, but interesting to Vano/Westy owners - just for fun info., so enjoy! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't know if you've ever seen these VW instigated flat-6 WBX6 versions before, which Oettenger/Okrasa eventually bought the rights & took over engine production from VW, & offered them as aftermarket mod kits to Euro Vanagons. I like the bigger/later 180 HP 3.7L version with 226 TQ. There are a few imported over here to North America.

It was started as a VW engineering project to basically make a WBX6 version of their 2.1L WBX4 (so many parts interchanged), in order to better compete against more powerful USA & Euro mini-van makers' cars, but VW decided not to build them - & this was in addition to the Porsche B32 ABX6 3.2 version, which was also to offer a flat-6. Too bad, cuz they probably would've sold many more Vanagon WBX6's vs. the Dodge, Ford & GM alternatives here!

The Oettenger conversion included: larger 4 wheel disc brakes, bigger tires/wheels, heavier duty cooling system, HD AT-transaxle & AT cooler, larger gas tank, body skirting kit & the bits for the selected WBX6 motor, as in the pix below.















.

More info can be found at these links & by googling for: Oettenger, WBX6, etc.:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=115681

http://www.wheels24.co.za/News/Custom_Cars...-Kombi-20071008

http://www.sleepydubs.co.uk/VW-T25-T3-History.html

http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2557

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic...asc&start=0

http://achtuning.com/tag/oettinger-vanagon/

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic...asc&start=0

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic...asc&start=0

http://insyncro.wordpress.com/2010/08/31/v...ettinger-wbx-6/

http://www.jokeristi.it/e107_plugins/forum...topic.php?45514

http://www.vwt4forum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2557

http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/VehicleSpecifi...nfo/special.htm

http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/oettinge...topic21911.html

http://tractors.wikia.com/wiki/Volkswagen_Type_2_%28T3%29

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[Tom_T]

Hi again Mark & All,

I just wanted to clarify based on a PM someone sent me, that I was just offering the above VW/Oettenger co-designed flat-6 WBX6 info as a FYI for Mark, knowing that he's a VW'er & mechanic who might find it interesting, as well as anyone else reading about alternative Subie engines for Vanagons/Westies.

However, I did wait until this thread died down for a couple of weeks & Mark got his input on Subie's for his customer, before I added that FYI stuff - this Oettenger WBX6 thing was just of interest, & not a viable DD/XC option for anyone but a collector.

It was not intended to hijack this, but just to offer some interesting info. on the OT Vanagon-Subie motors topic.

Merry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/santa_smiley.gif) & Happy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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