Down In A Blaze Of Unglory - 914s on FIRE!, It can be pretty common, unfortunately. What causes the 914 to catch fire so easily, how to prevent it from happening and what to do if it does happen Options

[tumamilhem]

And what size 30R9 lines for 2.0 stock?

[rgolia]

I lost 8 gallons of gas in 3 city blocks in the south Bronx back in 1977 (the car was 3 years old). Do not know how it did not go up in flames, but I had to keep driving or the car would have been on cinder blocks and stripped to the bare metal within 2 minutes of being left on the side of the road if you know the south Bronx. Made it back to dads shop and did the repairs in his dirt lot.....then Porsche sends out the recall notice.....nice.

[Hammy]

This is a problem for vw buses also, which don't have the plastic lines.

I would say the problem is fuel filters with worm-drive clamps dangling from braided line right next to the coil or plug wires.

I had an inlet banjo come loose on a set of dells, dripping fuel. I actually shorted out the electric fuel pump for the carbs, but no fire.

What you need to start a fire I think is full on spray going onto a sparkplug wire or the coil.

Prevention would include keeping fuel filters out of the engine compartment, using the right clamps, securing fuel lines with zip ties, and running ethanol rated 30R9 lines, besides just replacing the plastic lines in the tunnel.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I also agree like Cap'n said that the fuel lines down the tunnel are rarely the problem. I replaced mine with SS just to be safe.

Cheap fuel filters (in wrong and hot places), incorrect fuel hose size (and wrong type), wrong hose clamps, incorrect/lazy hose routing, etc.. Also leaky carbs. Even the stock injectors/rails are finicky and will leak if hoses are not clamped down correctly. Always go through the fuel system on a just purchased car, never know what the PO did. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[ellisor3]

Here is link to some fire supression systems.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=FIREAUTO

I only use fuel injection hose clamps that designed specifically for each hose diameter. As stated, do not use worm clamps. I know the Capt'n says he has not seen problem with the plastic lines, but why take a chance, replace them with SS. Even if you don't go to a full fire supression system, at a minimum put a fire extinguisher in your car.

I had a friend who's car caught on fire and he tried to put it out, but when the police came, they made him stop for his own protection. They did not attempt to fight the fire.

[nathansnathan]

And what size 30R9 lines for 2.0 stock?

Here's a thread on it. I think the sizes are the same for the 2.0 as the 1.7?
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=112825

The challenge is to get the right size in inches; it's going to be slightly different than the metric. I haven't got my fuel lines replaced yet so I can't help too much.

[brant]

my understanding is that when magnesium catches fire - its a bitch to put out.

so my understanding si the problem may start with leak in fuel lines but quickly turn to magnesium BURNING OUT OF CONTROL.

The mag tranny cases really are not a concern
I've tested pieces of a case and it takes much more heat than I could find to light them... A welding torch won't light the case

if that car in the picture had lit its mag tranny case there would be no trunk lid left...

its the gasoline that is more flamable than the mag tranny case.

hazmat has a rating system about how flamable something is. It is measured in degree's of heat it would take to ignite it. By the time a tranny were to catch fire, there would be no car left as all of the body would be melted away, the fire having totaled the whole car long before the tranny became flammable.


brant

[Cap'n Krusty]

This is a problem for vw buses also, which don't have the plastic lines.

I would say the problem is fuel filters with worm-drive clamps dangling from braided line right next to the coil or plug wires.

I had an inlet banjo come loose on a set of dells, dripping fuel. I actually shorted out the electric fuel pump for the carbs, but no fire.

What you need to start a fire I think is full on spray going onto a sparkplug wire or the coil.

Prevention would include keeping fuel filters out of the engine compartment, using the right clamps, securing fuel lines with zip ties, and running ethanol rated 30R9 lines, besides just replacing the plastic lines in the tunnel.

Would these ethanol rated 30R9 lines be the same thing as the SS steel lines?

What kind of clamps should be used (and for what)?

What purpose does sip tying the fuel lines serve?

I'm not so mechanically inclined as you guys, so I'm trying to learn and understand to prevent this from happening.

Thanks again! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

The deal is that ethanol is like alcohol and will dry out hoses. 30R9 is an SAE rating for fuel hose that has a silicone-like 'flouroelastomer' lining that is resistant. It used to be blue on the inside but it's all just black now, looks like non braided line, so you have to look for 30R9 to be printed - it is for high pressure and it is expensive. You will only find it in english sizes since ethanol is an american problem.

The deal with the clamps is that the slots that worm drive (normal) hose clamps use will bite int the hose ends and make the drying cracking worse there at the ends, that is where they break, fuel lines. Proper clamps don't have as much range of adjustment. The old vw ones have a flange to protect the edges, mercedes ones are alright too. The difference is the slots all the way around.

About zip ties, it is the flopping around/moving that will cause the breaking once the clamps and the ethanol have made the lines brittle.

The worst situation to have is braided line, not zip tied, with regular hose clamps, the fuel filter flopping about right by the coil.

So don't use steel braided line, use 30R9 lines instead? What do they cost and whete can they bevfound?

What kind of hoses and clamps should be used and where can they be found?

SS braided fuel lines, just like the oil lines, are prone to developing leaks, especially at the fittings. Not good.

The Cap'n

[nathansnathan]

I've seen pics where the magnesium fan housing is like gone. I've heard stories of how there is a special truck that they might/ might not even call if the magnesium is burning. I've heard they will probably just let it burn.

bus engine
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/img.photobucket.com-11782-1354665437.1.jpg)

[tumamilhem]

Damn, that's scary. :/

[Bruce Hinds]

Dang, all this chatter and nobody mentioned the ignition source. Like leaking exhaust gaskets.

Especially when the fuel injector lines leak down over a leaking gasket. It only takes one backfire which it will do when you are decelerating.

smell fuel, find it and fix it . . . same with the exhaust.

[Katmanken]

I actually watched one go up in flames while it was sitting at a traffic light. Car was idling fine, and then smoke appeared out of the engine compartment. The smoke increased, gas began pouring out from under the engine, and flames gradually appeared out of the intake grill.

Engine kept idling fine. Owner looked in the rear view mirror, did a double take, and jumped out of the car.

The rain tray began melting and burning and dropped in. The owner tried to open the engine intake grill- but by then, the latch quit working.

Flames shot out of the grill, the owner opened the trunk and pried the intake grill open with a crowbar.

Flames really shot out and the gas under the car caught fire....

The owner backed up, and finally killed the engine (which was running fine). By then, the fuel lines were broached under the car, and gas kept pouring out from underneath.

The flaming gas pool under the car increased, and caught the rear tires on fire. The flaming rear tires began to expand as the air inside heated. The rear of the car rose up as the tires got giant sized, and one by one, the rear tires blew.

The fire department arrived, and put it out with foam. At no time did I see any energetic magnesium burns.

I believe that a fuel line or injector J tube split on top of the engine, or a hose clamp let go. That sprayed a small stream of gasoline across the warm engine, and eventually it caught fire. Once the fire got going, the upper fuel line ruptured (after the pressure regulator?) to pour gas onto the top of the engine and under the car. The fuel pool under the car eventually caught fire and burned out the lower rubber fuel lines and/or gas filter. Once the lower hoses failed, there was no stopping the gravity fed fuel pouring from the gas tank.

Considering the number of cars I‘ve seen with petrified wooden-like rubber fuel lines or cheap assed low pressure fuel lines, it's a wonder more don't go up.

Cheap insurance is replacing 20-40 year old rubber fuel lines and injector "J" hoses, making sure that all fuel line clamps are the factory recommended ones (rolled edges) and that all clamps are tight. And don't cheapen out. BUY THE EXPENSIVE BUT SAFE HIGH PRESSURE FUEL LINE.

[URY914]

The fan housing on a Type IV is aluminum. It melts. How did this turn into a mag fire issue? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[tumamilhem]

I actually watched one go up in flames while it was sitting at a traffic light. Car was idling fine, and then smoke appeared out of the engine compartment. The smoke increased, gas began pouring out from under the engine, and flames gradually appeared out of the intake grill.

Engine kept idling fine. Owner looked in the rear view mirror, did a double take, and jumped out of the car.

The rain tray began melting and burning and dropped in. The owner tried to open the engine intake grill- but by then, the latch quit working.

Flames shot out of the grill, the owner opened the trunk and pried the intake grill open with a crowbar.

Flames really shot out and the gas under the car caught fire....

The owner backed up, and finally killed the engine (which was running fine). By then, the fuel lines were broached under the car, and gas kept pouring out from underneath.

The flaming gas pool under the car increased, and caught the rear tires on fire. The flaming rear tires began to expand as the air inside heated. The rear of the car rose up as the tires got giant sized, and one by one, the rear tires blew.

The fire department arrived, and put it out with foam. At no time did I see any energetic magnesium burns.

I believe that a fuel line or injector J tube split on top of the engine, or a hose clamp let go. That sprayed a small stream of gasoline across the warm engine, and eventually it caught fire. Once the fire got going, the upper fuel line ruptured (after the pressure regulator?) to pour gas onto the top of the engine and under the car. The fuel pool under the car eventually caught fire and burned out the lower rubber fuel lines and/or gas filter. Once the lower hoses failed, there was no stopping the gravity fed fuel pouring from the gas tank.

Considering the number of cars I‘ve seen with petrified wooden-like rubber fuel lines or cheap assed low pressure fuel lines, it's a wonder more don't go up.

Cheap insurance is replacing 20-40 year old rubber fuel lines and injector "J" hoses, making sure that all fuel line clamps are the factory recommended ones (rolled edges) and that all clamps are tight. And don't cheapen out. BUY THE EXPENSIVE BUT SAFE HIGH PRESSURE FUEL LINE.

Holy shit. All this makes me want to redo all hoses, lines, anything to prevent this from happening. I just bought a 914 LE. Haven't received it yet. Will have to see what needs to be upgraded to give me some peace of mind.

[RickS]

A halon extinguisher is the next best thing to a fire suppression system. Conventional extinguishers can't hold a proverbial candle to halon for gas fires. I keep one in easy reach just in case. Also have a red top battery, so no acid leaks, and ss fuel lines so my only worries are people texting and swilling lattes while slapping their brats.

[914werke]

This has been a problem since the cars came onto the market. Bad hoses, incorrect hose and/or hose inner diameter, wrong hose clamps. It's virtually NEVER the plastic lines. Fuel fires can be prevented by frequent inspections by both the owner and/or the shop he/she takes the car to for repairs.
The Cap'n

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) in the earlyer cars the location of the pump & proximity to the pass. HE is probably a significant contributor to these fires (it was in my case) as the heat cycling can and does take its toll on those jumble of lines.

My personal experience on this topic is pretty spot on as the description by the katman except for the ignition source.
Paul The Fan shroud *IS* Mag and once lit will burn like a Mother!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[Dr Evil]

I have never been able to ignite tranny cases. I have tried. As stated, the whole car will be gone at those heats.

Just assure your fuel system is up to snuff and you will be fine. Fuel needs to be out of the lines, onto something hot or a spark to cause the fire. Stop that and you are good.

[carr914]

Magnesium can burn under water so if it lights there's no putting it out as far as i know. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Foam & a lot of it. When my 73 caught fire the Mayberry FD tried Water & that made it worse. They finally used an unbelievable amount of Foam, but by then the Motor & Tranny had burned away - the only thing left was the Jet-Hot Coated Headers & 1 Velocity Stack. Even the Steering Wheel melted!

[GeorgeRud]

Halon has the least cleanup, but foam is probably the best way to go. You might want to check on the Fire Fight website for extinguisher options. They sell mainly to the RV crowd, but have quite a few options.

[tumamilhem]

Where is the fuel pump located on a '74? I have a '75 and it's located under the bonnet. I know it was moved up front in later years from the engine compartment due to freezing up, but when? I just bought a '74.

[GeorgeRud]

74 is in back under passenger side engine shelf.