Has this ever happened to you?

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Video of car on fire: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151125433882341


This is an unfortunate, serious reality and real danger for us 914 owners that tragically happens all too often. But why and how can it be prevented?

I'd like to propose three talking points that could help educate other 914 owners to make necessary precautions to preserve their cars - and their lives:


1. What causes fires in the 914 and why are they so common?

2. What precautions may be done to prevent a 914 from catching fire?

3. If your 914 does catch fire, should you try to put it out or should you stay away in case of an explosion?

I'll go first.

Fortunately, this has never happened to me. And I pray it never will. But what can be done to insure that from happening?

I understand that it is common for battery acid to drip onto the fuel lines below, that are made of plastic. The fuel lines are easily eaten by the acid and hold about 30 lbs. of pressure, making the fuel spray quickly onto the heaters, etc. and quickly igniting and spreading.

How can this be prevented? Can the fuel lines be coated or housed in something that the acid will not damage? Is there an acid-resistant replacement? Can an acid-resistant material line encase the battery (or at least on the tray) to prevent leakage?

Also, is it possible for a 914 to catch fire while parked (not turned on)? Say, parked on the street or God forbid, sitting in your garage?

Wonder how much he wants for those fuchs?

Oh that's just wrong. :/
The guy said he had just bought this car too.

The plastic fuel lines in the tunnel are 40 years old. If you ever have to remove the originals, don't put them back! There are vendors selling stainless steel fuel lines that go through the center tunnel. Also, if you still have fuel injection, be sure to get FI rated hose because of the higher fuel pressure than that used by carbureted engines.

Where can I find these stainless fuel lines and hoses should I need to have them replaced?

Pelican Parts sells them.

Tangerine racing: http://tangerineracing.com/stainlessFuelLines.htm

I got my SS fuel line from them and they are very nice. Cheapest insurance you can buy for your car. I am also adding a basic fire suppression system into the build of my car for a little added safety.

What is a basic fire suppression system? Where can it be found and how to install?

Thank you guys for all of your input! Any other reasons a 914 may catch fire or how to prevent?

This is a problem for vw buses also, which don't have the plastic lines.

I would say the problem is fuel filters with worm-drive clamps dangling from braided line right next to the coil or plug wires.

I had an inlet banjo come loose on a set of dells, dripping fuel. I actually shorted out the electric fuel pump for the carbs, but no fire.

What you need to start a fire I think is full on spray going onto a sparkplug wire or the coil.

Prevention would include keeping fuel filters out of the engine compartment, using the right clamps, securing fuel lines with zip ties, and running ethanol rated 30R9 lines, besides just replacing the plastic lines in the tunnel.

Would these ethanol rated 30R9 lines be the same thing as the SS steel lines?

What kind of clamps should be used (and for what)?

What purpose does sip tying the fuel lines serve?

I'm not so mechanically inclined as you guys, so I'm trying to learn and understand to prevent this from happening.

Thanks again!

I've seen Chris's parts and they look nice and easy. Compared to fabbing your own from truck brake lines, that is. (Which is what I did just before the SS lines came on the market.)

This has been a problem since the cars came onto the market. Bad hoses, incorrect hose and/or hose inner diameter, wrong hose clamps. It's virtually NEVER the plastic lines. We do SERVICES, NOT "tune-ups! We check for stuff like that every time the car is in. That's always been my practice, and any good shop will do the same. Fuel fires can be prevented by frequent inspections by both the owner and/or the shop he/she takes the car to for repairs.

The Cap'n

my understanding is that when magnesium catches fire - its a bitch to put out.

so my understanding si the problem may start with leak in fuel lines but quickly turn to magnesium BURNING OUT OF CONTROL.

Magnesium can burn under water so if it lights there's no putting it out as far as i know.

I'm not sure but, did you see the car lurching forward, then backward?
Doesn't look like the firefighters did that..

The deal is that ethanol is like alcohol and will dry out hoses. 30R9 is an SAE rating for fuel hose that has a silicone-like 'flouroelastomer' lining that is resistant. It used to be blue on the inside but it's all just black now, looks like non braided line, so you have to look for 30R9 to be printed - it is for high pressure and it is expensive. You will only find it in english sizes since ethanol is an american problem.

The deal with the clamps is that the slots that worm drive (normal) hose clamps use will bite int the hose ends and make the drying cracking worse there at the ends, that is where they break, fuel lines. Proper clamps don't have as much range of adjustment. The old vw ones have a flange to protect the edges, mercedes ones are alright too. The difference is the slots all the way around.

About zip ties, it is the flopping around/moving that will cause the breaking once the clamps and the ethanol have made the lines brittle.

The worst situation to have is braided line, not zip tied, with regular hose clamps, the fuel filter flopping about right by the coil.

I have yet to locate the system that will be installed in my car. I remember looking about a year ago but figured I would wait until we were closer to the time we actually needed it. I think $500 can buy a basic system with a few nozzles to locate in the engine compartment.

What psrts are magnesuim that will cstch fire?

So don't use steel braided line, use 30R9 lines instead? What do they cost and whete can they bevfound?

What kind of hoses and clamps should be used and where can they be found?

And what size 30R9 lines for 2.0 stock?

I lost 8 gallons of gas in 3 city blocks in the south Bronx back in 1977 (the car was 3 years old). Do not know how it did not go up in flames, but I had to keep driving or the car would have been on cinder blocks and stripped to the bare metal within 2 minutes of being left on the side of the road if you know the south Bronx. Made it back to dads shop and did the repairs in his dirt lot.....then Porsche sends out the recall notice.....nice.

I also agree like Cap'n said that the fuel lines down the tunnel are rarely the problem. I replaced mine with SS just to be safe.

Cheap fuel filters (in wrong and hot places), incorrect fuel hose size (and wrong type), wrong hose clamps, incorrect/lazy hose routing, etc.. Also leaky carbs. Even the stock injectors/rails are finicky and will leak if hoses are not clamped down correctly. Always go through the fuel system on a just purchased car, never know what the PO did.

Here is link to some fire supression systems.
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=FIREAUTO

I only use fuel injection hose clamps that designed specifically for each hose diameter. As stated, do not use worm clamps. I know the Capt'n says he has not seen problem with the plastic lines, but why take a chance, replace them with SS. Even if you don't go to a full fire supression system, at a minimum put a fire extinguisher in your car.

I had a friend who's car caught on fire and he tried to put it out, but when the police came, they made him stop for his own protection. They did not attempt to fight the fire.

Here's a thread on it. I think the sizes are the same for the 2.0 as the 1.7?
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=112825

The challenge is to get the right size in inches; it's going to be slightly different than the metric. I haven't got my fuel lines replaced yet so I can't help too much.

The mag tranny cases really are not a concern
I've tested pieces of a case and it takes much more heat than I could find to light them... A welding torch won't light the case

if that car in the picture had lit its mag tranny case there would be no trunk lid left...

its the gasoline that is more flamable than the mag tranny case.

hazmat has a rating system about how flamable something is. It is measured in degree's of heat it would take to ignite it. By the time a tranny were to catch fire, there would be no car left as all of the body would be melted away, the fire having totaled the whole car long before the tranny became flammable.


brant

SS braided fuel lines, just like the oil lines, are prone to developing leaks, especially at the fittings. Not good.

The Cap'n

I've seen pics where the magnesium fan housing is like gone. I've heard stories of how there is a special truck that they might/ might not even call if the magnesium is burning. I've heard they will probably just let it burn.

bus engine

Damn, that's scary. :/

Dang, all this chatter and nobody mentioned the ignition source. Like leaking exhaust gaskets.

Especially when the fuel injector lines leak down over a leaking gasket. It only takes one backfire which it will do when you are decelerating.

smell fuel, find it and fix it . . . same with the exhaust.

I actually watched one go up in flames while it was sitting at a traffic light. Car was idling fine, and then smoke appeared out of the engine compartment. The smoke increased, gas began pouring out from under the engine, and flames gradually appeared out of the intake grill.

Engine kept idling fine. Owner looked in the rear view mirror, did a double take, and jumped out of the car.

The rain tray began melting and burning and dropped in. The owner tried to open the engine intake grill- but by then, the latch quit working.

Flames shot out of the grill, the owner opened the trunk and pried the intake grill open with a crowbar.

Flames really shot out and the gas under the car caught fire....

The owner backed up, and finally killed the engine (which was running fine). By then, the fuel lines were broached under the car, and gas kept pouring out from underneath.

The flaming gas pool under the car increased, and caught the rear tires on fire. The flaming rear tires began to expand as the air inside heated. The rear of the car rose up as the tires got giant sized, and one by one, the rear tires blew.

The fire department arrived, and put it out with foam. At no time did I see any energetic magnesium burns.

I believe that a fuel line or injector J tube split on top of the engine, or a hose clamp let go. That sprayed a small stream of gasoline across the warm engine, and eventually it caught fire. Once the fire got going, the upper fuel line ruptured (after the pressure regulator?) to pour gas onto the top of the engine and under the car. The fuel pool under the car eventually caught fire and burned out the lower rubber fuel lines and/or gas filter. Once the lower hoses failed, there was no stopping the gravity fed fuel pouring from the gas tank.

Considering the number of cars I‘ve seen with petrified wooden-like rubber fuel lines or cheap assed low pressure fuel lines, it's a wonder more don't go up.

Cheap insurance is replacing 20-40 year old rubber fuel lines and injector "J" hoses, making sure that all fuel line clamps are the factory recommended ones (rolled edges) and that all clamps are tight. And don't cheapen out. BUY THE EXPENSIVE BUT SAFE HIGH PRESSURE FUEL LINE.

The fan housing on a Type IV is aluminum. It melts. How did this turn into a mag fire issue?

Holy shit. All this makes me want to redo all hoses, lines, anything to prevent this from happening. I just bought a 914 LE. Haven't received it yet. Will have to see what needs to be upgraded to give me some peace of mind.

A halon extinguisher is the next best thing to a fire suppression system. Conventional extinguishers can't hold a proverbial candle to halon for gas fires. I keep one in easy reach just in case. Also have a red top battery, so no acid leaks, and ss fuel lines so my only worries are people texting and swilling lattes while slapping their brats.

in the earlyer cars the location of the pump & proximity to the pass. HE is probably a significant contributor to these fires (it was in my case) as the heat cycling can and does take its toll on those jumble of lines.

My personal experience on this topic is pretty spot on as the description by the katman except for the ignition source.
Paul The Fan shroud *IS* Mag and once lit will burn like a Mother!!

I have never been able to ignite tranny cases. I have tried. As stated, the whole car will be gone at those heats.

Just assure your fuel system is up to snuff and you will be fine. Fuel needs to be out of the lines, onto something hot or a spark to cause the fire. Stop that and you are good.

Foam & a lot of it. When my 73 caught fire the Mayberry FD tried Water & that made it worse. They finally used an unbelievable amount of Foam, but by then the Motor & Tranny had burned away - the only thing left was the Jet-Hot Coated Headers & 1 Velocity Stack. Even the Steering Wheel melted!

Halon has the least cleanup, but foam is probably the best way to go. You might want to check on the Fire Fight website for extinguisher options. They sell mainly to the RV crowd, but have quite a few options.

Where is the fuel pump located on a '74? I have a '75 and it's located under the bonnet. I know it was moved up front in later years from the engine compartment due to freezing up, but when? I just bought a '74.

74 is in back under passenger side engine shelf.

So it should be moved then I suppose? What do I need to do to relocate it to the front?

Subscribed for answer to this.

Got the SS lines a long time ago (haven't installed) and all new fuel lines, but have been wanting to relocate the pump up front on my '73.

It looks as though they used foam on that Teener. I personaly had my teener catch fire but it was in the steering column. Back in 1998 when my pops owned the car, I was driving it because my bus wasn't working. The wipers didn't work at the time due to a bad motor. I must have accidentally turned the wipers on when making a turn and never turned them off. As I was a block away from home i smell burning plastic and then smoke started pouring out of steering column. Luckily the p.o. before my pops installed a halon 2.5 lb extinguisher in the cab. I reached over while driving grabbed the extinguisher, reached down under the dash and squeezed the trigger a few times then brought it up in front of me and squeezed a few times. Luckily it was a warm day in san jose california that day so I had my window down cause it got cloudy and halon sucks the o2 out of the direct area. It went out and I had reached home and turned it off. We had it towed to the shop in fremont and thats when we found out it was due to a electrical fire. So it is not always a gas fire.

Also, back in the 80's we would go to boney dunes near santa cruz and use a old 36 horse vw motor block that is magnesium in the center of the wood pile and light it up! That block would glow and you would have to stand a good 15 to 20 feet away. I bet it could turn some of that sand into glass. Magnesium won't light up in solid form unless it in a prolonged very hot fire but it will in shavings or dust form as in a machine shop situation. Atleast thats in my experience.

To answer the question about catching fire while parked, I seem to remember an earlier thread from one of our members in which the car caught fire as it sat in his carport. A cursory search didnt find it, but maybe somebody else remembers who it was.

I'll add one, albeit in "left field". Static discharge. Something I learned when flying experimental. Ordinarily this is not a concern as we usually pump from metal nozzles that are grounded. But I'll bet I have had the tanks in & out of my 914's a dozen times. When I drain my tank I actually siphon the gas into a DOT gas can then pour it back in the tank when finished. Sound familiar? Then your playing with fire my friend. I know of 2 planes that burned to the ground being re-fueled this way. Best chance of this happening is where one lives in an arid climate.( or a just a low humidity day where you live). Couple that with a plastic gas can sliding across your pick up bed, rubbing against your jeans or wool shirt and you've got a ticking time bomb. As soon as that spout gets near the metal filler neck . It only takes a second to discharge any static buildup. Before lifting the can off the floor pour a bit of water on the side of the can. When the water comes in contact with the ground and gas can it is grounded and discharged. Easier than attaching a damned ground cable. I know I'm reaching but if this saves one teener, so be it.

I remember a v8 conversion that caught fire in a parking lot while off... Maybe a year ago. This Is on of the reasons why racers install big power cutoff switches. I have one and store my subie conversion with the battery disconnected via one of these switches. Only my starter and alternator stay connected to the battery. Everything else is after the master cutoff. Bottom line know what your doing when it comes to electrical. It can start a fire really quick!

This is from personal experience......

Betty and I were living in Arlington, and we were driving her car from there to my parent's house in Bedford. On the way up Hwy 360, I hear her yell "Were on FIRE!".

The car didn't lose power, so I quickly moved right and got it on the shoulder. We bailed out, and I tried to put the fire out with a handheld extinguisher. I just slowed it down.

The FD arrived, and used a half of the water in the tanker and two big CO2 extinguishers to get the fire put out. By that time the top had collapsed inward, the interior was gone, the gauge lenses had bubbled out, and the windshield collapsed inward.

After it cooled, the fire marshall did a post mortem. His analysis was that the plastic pressure line had split at the firewall where it makes the turn to the right, and sprayed gas all over the hot heat exchangers, starting the fire.

That engine fire almost cost me my marriage, as that is Betty's pride and joy.
It took me a few years to get it back up and running.

To this day, I will never own a 914 that has the plastic lines, and I will gladly install steel lines for free for anyone who is willing to pay the cost of the lines. I don't ever want to see another 914 on fire.

Ethanol is relatively new to fuel and a problem that may now cause the original plastic lines in the tunnel to fail. Rarely a problem in the past is not a good arguement in favor of not replacing the old plastic lines.

Suppression system aside do to high cost, what kind of fire extinguisher should be used to keep in the car? I understand there are different kinds.

SS lines are a must, and this is piece of mind....