Alternate ECU's- my thoughts, your opinions? Options

[ottox914]

I'll be running the yellow car in DSP next season, and we (this forum) have got the suspension in line with "how much bar is to much bar". On to the engine. DSP needs a stock long block, but intake and exhaust systems are free. I've got a Kerry Hunter header and supertrapp exhaust on now. So- on to the intake system.

Was planning to use the existing intake system, as it is more budgetary, and more torque oriented. Maybe over the winter research and build new runners and central plenum. But how to control it all?

I've been waiting as patiently as possible for the KitCarlson system, but have had other thoughts of late. With the KC system, you need to set timing values, fuel values, develop a VE table, and so on. And at this point, its all closed loop. Sounds like alot of work.

Plan "B". Go to "aircooled.net" http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewprodu...0007&cartid=and check out the safeguard system, as an ignition upgrade. Hook this up, and the timing is self adjusting for fuel quality, temp of intake air, height above/below sea level, etc. Then add a megasquirt, SDS, Haltech or other fuel only controller. Beg, borrow, steal a wideband O2 and let the timing self adjust, just keep dumping fuel till you get good O2 readings across the RPM range, and tuning is done.

Can it be that simple? Pros and Cons of each plan? Thoughts? Other ideas?

Thanks!

[lapuwali]

Actually, when it comes out, the Kit Carlson system will likely be the easiest to adapt to your engine of any aftermarket choice, if only because it will be made to fit the Type IV out of the box. Megasquirt, SDS, Haltech, et al will all also require you to develop your own maps. The KC will come with a map for a Type IV out of the box, which you'll need to tweak to suit your exact engine.

The SDS and Haltech will come "blank", and you'll need to start completely from scratch on developing fuel maps, and on adapting sensors to the Type IV and or the box. However, SDS and Haltech (and Electromotive, etc) all can handle spark as well as fuel, and will do so w/o a distributor. The SDS w/ spark will be a good bit cheaper than that ignition box on ac.net plus the fuel-only SDS. It will also be a lot easier to adjust the fuel+spark SDS.

The Megasquirt is the hardest to do, since you need to assemble it yourself (unless you buy a pre-built), and then you'll need to go through the whole map development from scratch there, too. It's cheaper to buy, but a lot more work is involved in getting a working system.

For any kind of serious performance use, knock sensing is simply not required. Knock sensing is great for a street car that may get varying qualities of gas, but for any racing car, it's simply not necessary. Knock sensing alone isn't enough to tune ignition. There's an ignition map in the box, but you have NO control over it. The SDS (or others) box will allow full spark control, including adjustments for manifold pressure (vacuum advance and retard), which can also be tuned. That box is NOT completely self-tuning.

With current technology available in the aftermarket, this is no completely "self-tuning" ignition system that optimizes for power. There's just generic spark control with some latitude for adjusting to atmospheric conditions. There IS a technology for fully optimizing ignition, which has been developed by SAAB over the last 10-15 years, but it's not (yet) available in any form in the aftermarket. If anyone will have it first, it will be the DIY crowd, as they've been working on it for quite some time now. For now, the closest you can get is a fully tunable system and a dyno...

[nebreitling]

i don't think you'll gain much power on stock long block with an alternate FI system. just keep it perfectly tuned, always.

if you're really desperate for that last 2 hp, make a cold air intake.

[Mark Henry]

The SDS and Haltech will come "blank", and you'll need to start completely from scratch on developing fuel maps

That's not true about the SDS system at all !!!

Have you ever had/programmed one????? <_<

Mine came programmed from SDS (they asked many questions about my app.) and it was right in the ballpark. Do to all the variables in the engine combo I doubt if the KC system will be a whole lot closer...maybe just a bit.
For the MAP I can give you mine. Programming is not too difficult for the non-techie anyways.

As far as the install goes, it is a lot of work for the crank fire, but I'm glad I got it. Without the crankfire you could probably have the SDS up and running in a couple of weekends.

The KC system will be easier to install on the T4 when it comes out

Yep, it won't add much power over the stock system on a stock engine.

To see my install:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act...t=0#entry204559

[McMark]

I don't believe anything "auto tuning" will be as good as your engine on a dyno. Wide band O2 will be better than narrow band junk, but expecting perfect tuning from auto-tune would sorely disappoint your or give you false confidence. Auto tuning would be mediocre for a street motor, but if you're looking for max power, dyno tune the injection.

Are you the best driver you can be? Until that point stock injection will be fine. Upgrading the injection will move the pinnacle edge up a little bit, but if you're not reaching that edge anyway, you're adding potential beyond your reach. Designing your own intake/plenum setup will allow you to move the power in the RPM range, but if you don't have the tools to test things (dyno time) you're shooting in the dark and could accidentally move all your power to 700 rpms (seven hundred). In my mind these aren't things to be guessed with.

All that said, if you're a gambler, go ahead and give it a try. See what happens. Put your money in and pull the handle. Experimenting is fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[airsix]

I did my PEFI conversion for $500, and while the tuning, wiring harness construction, and crank possition sensor fabrication were a little work - In the end I'd say it was worth it to ditch the D-jet. Why? Reliablility. I was fed-up with the upkeep on my D-jet. I had it in perfect tune. Then the TPS went out. Fixed that and the CHT sensor went out. Fixed that and the MPS went out. Fixed that and the trigger points went out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) D-jet is a good system. It works well. But after 30 years our parts are brittle, corroded, and worn out. Replacements parts are either expensive or NLA. Since it's time for new parts why not make them modern parts. The digital systems are really nice. Troubleshooting is MUCH EASIER because of all the feedback you get from your tuning software. Idle is smoother because of crank-triggered timing. Retune for new mods quickly and easily. And satisfy your inner geek.

-Ben M.

[Ray Warren]

D-jet is a good system. It works well. But after 30 years our parts are brittle, corroded, and worn out. Replacements parts are either expensive or NLA. Since it's time for new parts why not make them modern parts. The digital systems are really nice. Troubleshooting is MUCH EASIER because of all the feedback you get from your tuning software. Idle is smoother because of crank-triggered timing. Retune for new mods quickly and easily. And satisfy your inner geek.

-Ben M.

This is exactly why I'm going with aftermarket FI.
My engine is almost ready and I am getting very
anxios to buy a system. There has been no new
news on the KC system but that SDS system is
only two days away on any courier truck.
DECISIONS DECISIONS
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[TimT]

Hehehe

Im partial to Haltech... because we sell them LOL

Yes the Haltech comes "blank" but if you read the informative instruction manual... you can have an engine fired up in a short time..

Also the Halwin/Haltech software is very intuitive..easy to use.....

We are all lucky now as there are many high quality EFI options avaiable

[smdubovsky]

I've got an old SDS EM-3D(? - fuel only, 4 cyl) that I could be talked out of. I've been saving it for some future project car that I don't have yet;) I pulled it out of my old Jeep about a year ago before it went to 4wd heaven... It ran my 911 during its breakin process (had to add 2 more injector drivers, but thats reversible), but now Im using a Haltech E11. No fault of the SDS, but I wanted datalogging. The SDS is an easy system to get running. Im using the LM1 WBO2 w/ the haltech and that thing is worth its weight in gold. Wish I had one years ago when I installed the SDS in the Jeep. Friends don't let friends tune w/ a narrow band...

SMD

[ottox914]

Thanks for all the opinions. Anyone actually use the "safeguard", or know of anyone who has? To reply to some of the comments, yes, there is a cold air kit on the car, home cobbled, sucks cold air out from right under the lid, with the rain tray removed. Did a G-tech on the car before and after, and averaged 4hp gain. Plans are DSP for a season or 2, learn the PEFI system, and add a turbo and go hunting in SM2. And yes, I know you can't turbo a type IV motor... I think the driver thing is on the way too, as I am not the fastest guy in the cones, but am one of our club instructors, and generally top 5 fastest on street tires, top 25 overall, our events draw 100-150 cars, with several national trophy winners present. Re-inventing the intake/plenum is mostly a winter exercise to keep the car crazies in check when there is more snow than pavement. I have an engineering book on design of intake and exhaust systems, and several of our club members are engineers who have expressed an interest in helping, so that cobble actually has 1/2 a chance of actually working, as well as keeping my "inner geek" happy. While the safeguard is interesting, I may hold out for the KC system. Any more comments are always welcome.