New Hoosiers and my suspension, What is going on? Options

[ww914]

Today at the track, with my new Hoosier A6's, I was lifting the inside front tire. I had installed 180 lb springs, took off the rear sway bar and tightened up the front 19mm Tarrett just a little. Everyone at the track told me that I needed beefier springs in the back. Well, I have 220 lbs springs, shall I try them? Shall I leave the sway bar off? Should I soften or tighten the front sway bar? Oh, I am running 205/15 on 5.5 rims. I am looking at 7" rims to get the patch better. Any other recommendations?

[Woody]

If the car feels balanced I wouldn't really worry about it as its quite common. What size torsion bars are you running? I'm running 22 mm torsion bars with a 19mm swaybar on full stiff and 250 pound springs in the rear. My car is just a touch tail happy but doesn't lift the inside front as much as it used to with the 180 pounders.

[Randal]

If the car feels balanced I wouldn't really worry about it as its quite common. What size torsion bars are you running? I'm running 22 mm torsion bars with a 19mm swaybar on full stiff and 250 pound springs in the rear. My car is just a touch tail happy but doesn't lift the inside front as much as it used to with the 180 pounders.

I'm running 240 lb springs in back and no sway bar. The Smart Racing front sway bar is the lightest one (of three) offered and is set soft for Autox. When running the track I tighten up the front adjuster to the middle setting on the Smart Racing setup.

A lot of what you depends upon the overall weight of the car.

[ww914]

If the car feels balanced I wouldn't really worry about it as its quite common. What size torsion bars are you running? I'm running 22 mm torsion bars with a 19mm swaybar on full stiff and 250 pound springs in the rear. My car is just a touch tail happy but doesn't lift the inside front as much as it used to with the 180 pounders.

I'm running 240 lb springs in back and no sway bar. The Smart Racing front sway bar is the lightest one (of three) offered and is set soft for Autox. When running the track I tighten up the front adjuster to the middle setting on the Smart Racing setup.

A lot of what you depends upon the overall weight of the car.

Randal, I see in your avatar that your front ends lifts as well or is that an old photo? To me, and please correct me if I am wrong, that lifting that leading front tire is not the fastest way around the track. I think I will leave the 180 lb springs on for now and re-install the rear sway bar and see what happens. Maybe I will soften the front 19mm sway bar a little as well.

[ChrisFoley]

Ignore when people tell you a tire is coming off the ground and go by how the car feels.

[Woody]

Ignore when people tell you a tire is coming off the ground and go by how the car feels.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[Randal]

If the car feels balanced I wouldn't really worry about it as its quite common. What size torsion bars are you running? I'm running 22 mm torsion bars with a 19mm swaybar on full stiff and 250 pound springs in the rear. My car is just a touch tail happy but doesn't lift the inside front as much as it used to with the 180 pounders.

I'm running 240 lb springs in back and no sway bar. The Smart Racing front sway bar is the lightest one (of three) offered and is set soft for Autox. When running the track I tighten up the front adjuster to the middle setting on the Smart Racing setup.

A lot of what you depends upon the overall weight of the car.

Randal, I see in your avatar that your front ends lifts as well or is that an old photo? To me, and please correct me if I am wrong, that lifting that leading front tire is not the fastest way around the track. I think I will leave the 180 lb springs on for now and re-install the rear sway bar and see what happens. Maybe I will soften the front 19mm sway bar a little as well.

If you look closely at that avatar, you see that the rear wheel is off the ground as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

To be honest I'm not sure whether that was before the change to 240 springs or not.

I also agree with the post Chris made as if the car feels good, go with it. In my case I was surprised when Trekkor took that picture showing the car up on two wheels as the car felt perfect.

If you reinstall the rear sway bar it might help to keep the wheels down, but now you have two issues (really three) to worry about in the rear, i.e., shocks, springs and sway bar.

[ww914]

If the car feels balanced I wouldn't really worry about it as its quite common. What size torsion bars are you running? I'm running 22 mm torsion bars with a 19mm swaybar on full stiff and 250 pound springs in the rear. My car is just a touch tail happy but doesn't lift the inside front as much as it used to with the 180 pounders.

I'm running 240 lb springs in back and no sway bar. The Smart Racing front sway bar is the lightest one (of three) offered and is set soft for Autox. When running the track I tighten up the front adjuster to the middle setting on the Smart Racing setup.

A lot of what you depends upon the overall weight of the car.

Randal, I see in your avatar that your front ends lifts as well or is that an old photo? To me, and please correct me if I am wrong, that lifting that leading front tire is not the fastest way around the track. I think I will leave the 180 lb springs on for now and re-install the rear sway bar and see what happens. Maybe I will soften the front 19mm sway bar a little as well.

If you look closely at that avatar, you see that the rear wheel is off the ground as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

To be honest I'm not sure whether that was before the change to 240 springs or not.

I also agree with the post Chris made as if the car feels good, go with it. In my case I was surprised when Trekkor took that picture and showed me the car up on two wheels as the car felt perfect.

If you reinstall the rear sway bar it might help to keep the wheels down, but now you have two issues (really three) to worry about in the rear, i.e., shocks, springs and sway bar.

So, I guess what I am hearing you pro's say is to not worry about trying to get the wheel down if the car feels good. Well, now that I am a fully experienced 4 AX driver, how the hell do I know? I think it handles better than before, but I still feel like I am doing a lot of drifting around the cones. That can't be the fastest route, can it?

[ChrisFoley]

Which end of the car would you like to have more grip?

[ww914]

Which end of the car would you like to have more grip?

The rear, I guess, since right now there is only one wheel on the ground in the front.

[Randal]

Which end of the car would you like to have more grip?

The rear, I guess, since right now there is only one wheel on the ground in the front.

So was the car loose in front, i.e., understeering?

Or loose in the back, i.e., oversteering?

[Woody]

If the back end is loose you need to stiffen up the front. If the car plows you need to stiffen the rear. I'd toss the rear swaybar unless you have a limited slip differential.

[ww914]

Which end of the car would you like to have more grip?

The rear, I guess, since right now there is only one wheel on the ground in the front.

So was the car loose in front, i.e., understeering?

Or loose in the back, i.e., oversteering?

It seemed pretty balanced to me. I felt like I was in control of the car, not the car of me. It just didn't seem like I was driving smooth, but maybe that's me. With more seat time, I guess I will figure it out.

[Woody]

Which end of the car would you like to have more grip?

The rear, I guess, since right now there is only one wheel on the ground in the front.

So was the car loose in front, i.e., understeering?

Or loose in the back, i.e., oversteering?

It seemed pretty balanced to me. I felt like I was in control of the car, not the car of me. It just didn't seem like I was driving smooth, but maybe that's me. With more seat time, I guess I will figure it out.

Its an addiction. There is no substitute for seat time.

[Randal]

Which end of the car would you like to have more grip?

The rear, I guess, since right now there is only one wheel on the ground in the front.

So was the car loose in front, i.e., understeering?

Or loose in the back, i.e., oversteering?

It seemed pretty balanced to me. I felt like I was in control of the car, not the car of me. It just didn't seem like I was driving smooth, but maybe that's me. With more seat time, I guess I will figure it out.

Its an addiction. There is no substitute for seat time.

+1

Have you attended any autox schools, as they're the best place to learn the basics and get lots of seat time.

Of all the students I've instructed about 5% were out of the box good drivers. And even those people were missing one or two of the critical basics.

If you're not feeling smooth it's likely you're driving the corner you're in as opposed to the next corner. Think about it...if you're looking at the next corner you'll naturally end up taking the corner you're in more smoothly. If you driving the corner you're in, then the exit on just about every corner will end up being a surprise. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

In autox we don't like surprises!

[J P Stein]

I sold the 914 I'd been modifying for 12-14 years when I retired.
It was fairly successful at AX & fun to drive. I had an MR2 turbo as a DD & figured that it might be fun to run in C Stock. Did new shocks & got me some R spec Kumhos. The Toyoda did all the things it was supposed to do.....my driving was crummy, as was the norm, BUT , it was not fun. The car was heavy, under powered, & flaccid.

No gettin' around it, I was spoiled & too old to learn to like slow. The old 914 was good enough to make me look good too.

So, take your time, learn your trade, and enjoy. When the joy stopped, so did I. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

Yeah, I miss it.

[McMark]

Think about the wheel lifting this way - If you lift the front tire, did the front end get loose? If not, then you had enough grip with only 1 tire on the ground.

I think that when I AX I'm trying too hard to go fast. You may go faster by working on better entry/exit lines, rather than 'going faster'. That's where I am. Trekkor's last AX school at Infineon had a tight 180 corner and I just couldn't get around it without massive understeer. I tried to force oversteer, I tried to just plow through, but at the end of the day I realized that I simply needed to go slower. I never did get to put that in practice, so next time out I'll be working on that.

[Randal]

Think about the wheel lifting this way - If you lift the front tire, did the front end get loose? If not, then you had enough grip with only 1 tire on the ground.

I think that when I AX I'm trying too hard to go fast. You may go faster by working on better entry/exit lines, rather than 'going faster'. That's where I am. Trekkor's last AX school at Infineon had a tight 180 corner and I just couldn't get around it without massive understeer. I tried to force oversteer, I tried to just plow through, but at the end of the day I realized that I simply needed to go slower. I never did get to put that in practice, so next time out I'll be working on that.

What you learned is that certain corners have to be given up. Look at it this way: if on a tight corner the car starts to understeer, then just start a stopwatch and stop it when the understeer stops and the car starts going the direction of the course. Whatever time is on that watch is LOST! You will never make it up.

Know when to give up a corner.

[J P Stein]

I luv 180s. Most guys give up on em'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

There is a way to deal with em' and make up time on the 95 % "give it up" crowd.


Watch the guys that know and you'll get the idea. I learnt a few things over the years......just not enuff .....but 180s are one. The driving part is simple even tho they are all different.....with practice......one pass was enough. The corner itself is not that much quicker, but faster.....and the exit is also (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif). While most are grinding off their front tires, I'm gone..

The car set up part fit with my AX standard method, so it was easy also.

[Randal]

I luv 180s. Most guys give up on em'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

There is a way to deal with em' and make up time on the 95 % "give it up" crowd.


Watch the guys that know and you'll get the idea. I learnt a few things over the years......just not enuff .....but 180s are one. The driving part is simple even tho they are all different.....with practice......one pass was enough. The corner itself is not that much quicker, but faster.....and the exit is also (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif). While most are grinding off their front tires, I'm gone..

The car set up part fit with my AX standard method, so it was easy also.

OK Coach, tell us 95%ers how.