Rear Sway Bar Affects Options

[SLKWrx]

Can anyone give me a good account of what would happen if I removed the rear sway bar in an AutoX setting? I'm currently running stock F&R sways, stock torsion bars, bilsteins all around and I believe 180# springs.

I know the best way to find out is to try it, but I get out to so few AutoXs, I don't want to waste one of my outings with a setting that ruins the day. Looking for your experiences with and without

Thanks!

[Woody]

You didn't tell us why you would want to remove it. If I had to guess you probably have quite a bit of oversteer with your current setup. I would remove it. Not many guys run them anyway. If the car still oversteers then I would look at going up in torsion bar and front swaybar size.

[SLKWrx]

Woody, thanks for the quick response. That was exactly the reason that I wanted to remove it, I have read that it reduces oversteer. I purchased the car set up the way it is, so I don't know what it would be like without it.

Have you tried running with and without to notice a difference?

[pt_700]

is it possible to un-couple the rear bar by simply removing one of the links?

me thinks this would be a quick an easy way to test.

[brant]

is it possible to un-couple the rear bar by simply removing one of the links?

me thinks this would be a quick an easy way to test.

yes

a piece of duct tape to keep the link from dangling and 20 seconds is all it takes to make a test run.

[Woody]

I don't run a rear bar. I run a 19mm front which is getting swapped for a 22mm. I run 21mm torsion bars and 250# rear springs. I've never had a need for a rear bar.

[ChrisFoley]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif)
Steve,
A major factor in determining if a rear sway bar is suitable in a 914 used for autocross is ncreased ET caused by traction loss on corner exit.
In other words, if you can't accelerate out of a corner because the inside rear wheel spins easily, you should not be using a rear anti-sway bar.
You may even want to change to a stiffer front bar.
On a race track a rear bar makes a little more sense. The car is actually better balanced with both front and rear bars at higher speeds.
That is until you have enough power to overcome rear traction coming out of a corner,and spin a rear tire.
Losing traction has two negative effects: loss of acceleration and excess oversteer.
Loose is fast - as long as you can control it.

[J P Stein]

I never ran one.
As Chris says lifting the inside rear is a problem with one....I have driven 914s with the rear bar and can verify that.

When I popped for an LSD, which many folks believe makes a rear bar workable, I went for a torque biasing type .....that will also spin the inside rear if that tire comes off the ground totaly.......which would seem counter productive , eh?
The problem is that the clutch type LSDs suck at AX......unless you like lotso understeer.
The simple solution with a TB diff is to have stiff enough springs in back to keep the inside rear planted.....even when you add a hundred + HP or so to your ride.

There are a set of un-intended consequences of setting up any car for AX nilly-willy and the 914 is no exception. You wanna go fast, you gotta learn the rules. A gud plan is to save your self some money and not try it in a knowledge vaccume.

[SLKWrx]

Guys, thank you very much for all the information. This is some great stuff. I think I'll just give it a go at the next AutoX without it and see what happens. I definitely have been a bit tail happy and with so many people saying that they run without it in an AutoX setting, I'll give it a shot.

[Randal]

Guys, thank you very much for all the information. This is some great stuff. I think I'll just give it a go at the next AutoX without it and see what happens. I definitely have been a bit tail happy and with so many people saying that they run without it in an AutoX setting, I'll give it a shot.

When I first got my car it had a rear bar installed. I remember Rich Bontempi saying to disconnect it at my first autox which I did. Later took it off.

And JP's advice about a TB differential for autox is priceless.

[J P Stein]

When I first got my car it had an rear bar installed. I remember Rich Bontempi saying to disconnect it at my first autox which I did. Later took it off.

And JP advice about a TB differential for autox is priceless.

Well.....not quite pricless if'n ya buy one, eh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I'm a CSOB but once in a while I stepped out of that mold.

[tadink]

Guys, thank you very much for all the information. This is some great stuff. I think I'll just give it a go at the next AutoX without it and see what happens. I definitely have been a bit tail happy and with so many people saying that they run without it in an AutoX setting, I'll give it a shot.

Hi guys - I'm in the same situation and so will not hijack this thred - BUT - If I have a rear anti sway bar, what am I likely to see / feel? how will I know that the rear bar is slowing down my skills when I'm on the course?

thx

td

[ChrisFoley]

... If I have a rear anti sway bar, what am I likely to see / feel? how will I know that the rear bar is slowing down my skills when I'm on the course?

Two things: the car may spin too easily; acceleration out of corners may result in wheel spin even with a low power engine.

[ConeDodger]

I run a rear swaybar and I have no problems with oversteer. But.... I have Elephant Bushings throughout, 200# springs, Koni adjustable shocks, stock torsion bars with a big adjustable front swaybar. I also have a torque biasing differential. My neighbor who is a former shifter kart world champ says my 914 may be the best handling car with a license plate he has ever driven. My car tends to understeer with this set up so since removing the rear bar, or softening the rear = relatively stiffening the front, in theory, it would make the understeering worse.

This wasn't magic. I got expert advice from Ron Kain and Brad Roberts. I got it aligned and corner-balanced. I have a lot of seat time. Only problem is I'm getting old and slow... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[ww914]

This wasn't magic. I got expert advice from Ron Kain and Brad Roberts. I got it aligned and corner-balanced. I have a lot of seat time. Only problem is I'm getting old and slow... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Don't even talk about being old and slow, you're not even close yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[Randal]

My car tends to understeer with this set up so since removing the rear bar, or softening the rear = relatively stiffening the front, in theory, it would make the understeering worse.

Haven't run a rear bar since starting to drive competition events; however, a huge problem was always understeering. Corrected it by dialing in a softer front end, i.e., Smart Racing set up on softest position, also using the smallest bar, adding a TBD and increasing the spring rates. On a 180 degree turn the car will stick as long as I don't try to overcome elementary rules of physics.

Some of the best autox's I've run were with the SCCA folks up in Reno at Stead. You run with those guys Rob?

[ConeDodger]

My car tends to understeer with this set up so since removing the rear bar, or softening the rear = relatively stiffening the front, in theory, it would make the understeering worse.

Haven't run a rear bar since starting to drive competition events; however, a huge problem was always understeering. Corrected it by dialing in a softer front end, i.e., Smart Racing set up on softest position, also using the smallest bar, adding a TBD and increasing the spring rates. On a 180 degree turn the car will stick as long as I don't try to overcome elementary rules of physics.

Some of the best autox's I've run were with the SCCA folks up in Reno at Stead. You run with those guys Rob?

Yup Randal... I run with them. Even the women are faster than me here! Very humbling. But on the bright side, they like LOVE my car...
In fact that reminds me. My SCCA renewal is sitting on my desk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Randal]

My car tends to understeer with this set up so since removing the rear bar, or softening the rear = relatively stiffening the front, in theory, it would make the understeering worse.

Haven't run a rear bar since starting to drive competition events; however, a huge problem was always understeering. Corrected it by dialing in a softer front end, i.e., Smart Racing set up on softest position, also using the smallest bar, adding a TBD and increasing the spring rates. On a 180 degree turn the car will stick as long as I don't try to overcome elementary rules of physics.

Some of the best autox's I've run were with the SCCA folks up in Reno at Stead. You run with those guys Rob?

Yup Randal... I run with them. Even the women are faster than me here! Very humbling. But on the bright side, they like LOVE my car...
In fact that reminds me. My SCCA renewal is sitting on my desk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I bought my car from a buddy of mine's good friend who lived down by Carson City. My buddy, Pat Costin and I went to a PCA dinner in Reno and he introduced me to THE FRIEND who later in the conversation mentioned he had a 914 (mostly race car) for sale. That was all it took. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[ConeDodger]

Costin's the guy who own(ed) the old but immaculate Mitchell 911. I see it over at Reno Rennsport a lot.

Not this weekend, but the next there is a two day AX at Stead. Drag 222 over the hill. I have a spare bedroom... We can show 'em what 914's can do!

[Randal]

Costin's the guy who own(ed) the old but immaculate Mitchell 911. I see it over at Reno Rennsport a lot.

Not this weekend, but the next there is a two day AX at Stead. Drag 222 over the hill. I have a spare bedroom... We can show 'em what 914's can do!

Reno Rennsport, is that Matt Lowrance's outfit?

As to Reno next weekend, I'm leaving today for Medford for the Spring Enduro this weekend. We'll see how much gas money I have left, but sure is tempting. Love Stead.

That orange car is fabulous. Pat came down to Santa Rosa for one of their events and I had a ride with him. At the end of the straight he was doing, well guess I shouldn't say, but not much shy of a ton.