V-TEC power, what do you think??? Options

[lapuwali]

So, there are NO engine mounts on the engine itself other than the "front" mount through the timing belt. I suspect this isn't uncommon practice on other fwd cars, either.

It's purely speculation on my part about the shaking causing any long-term problems with the 914 gearbox mounts. Seems plausible, but it may amount to nothing. It could also rip the mounts out in a 100 miles. No telling until some sucker tries it...

[monkei]

Built right I have seen a few [hondas] that could out handle some 911s and 914s.

maybe a 911, i've never heard of a honda outhandling a well built 914. and i doubt i will.....

the only japanese motor id consider giving up PCA membership for would be an STI Subaru motor. something like 280lbft of torque and around 300hp, imagine hooking that up to a built 915 gearbox... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

ive been thinking about potential powerplants: 928 motor? too heavy for AX. Chevy? hell no! 2316cc turbotype4? not enough longevity and too much money!! porsche 6? i wish i was rich enough.

i would totally love to do a twin turbo typeiv of a reasonable displacement (2056-2316) but i dont know exactly how im going to build the heads to handle lots of boost pressure. anybody know of any companies that do individual heads per cylinder (4 heads, 2v per)? ive spent some time looking at the heads and block on a type iv and it looks like it will certainly be a hell of a challenge to do a twin turbo typeIV right. ive heard that beveling head/mating surface to fit in each other and running the motor rich to form a carbon seal to hold high head pressure.

[mattillac]

i have to go to pick n pull to look for a tail light for my corolla anyways on sunday. i'm gonna take a long hard look at some honda motors and think about them while i dig through my hell hole on monday. just one mount on the motor side sounds kind of flimsy to me. maybe there are some areas on the honda motor that could recieve a mount. i'll have to take a look.

and about the ring and pinion in the 901, is it as easy as i dont think it is to "flip" in order to work with the honda motors rotation. i have a feeling there's some machine work involved, or something.

[mattillac]

2316cc turbotype4? not enough longevity and too much money!!

i think you just answered your own question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[mattillac]

No telling until some sucker tries it...

that sounds like a "dare"! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Brett W]

Get a reverse rotation camshaft and spin the motor backwards. There problem solved. Really dropping one of the B20s or H22s should make a nice little street motor. Slap a turbo there and run 400+ and you would have a really ass kicker. Grab whole front clip and engine wiring harness. You would have to do some minor work and it should wire right in. Get either Uberdata, AEM or Hondata and hand tweak the computer for your application. Buy a set of headers and just run it like the factory did and route it out the drivers side of the motor, straight out the back.

You should not have any more headaches than these other people that do conversions.

The 928 motor weighs more than a cast iron small block engine. Not worth it. the Scubby motor would be really neat. Forget building a turbo T4, RIGHT. Until there are some better heads it is not worth it.

[Mr.C]

All this talk about power and handling with Hondas, lets just see for ourselves. I'll take this engine as a swap anyday. He can keep the brakes though. Watch and see. http://cs.widener.edu/%7Eepanek/Watkins%20...Sept%2027th.mpg (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

[soloracer]

Brett: I don't know what part of the world you live in but around here I don't know of a single 400 hp honda let alone 600 hp. I would think such a car would be extremely rare and extremely expensive to build. I stand by the claim that bang for the buck a honda engine is NOT the way to go to get big horsepower. As Dave mentioned the factory has done a lot with the engines in stock form and getting any more from them means going forced induction. If you are going forced induction you might as well start with an engine that has more potential. A reliable turbocharged honda engine is expensive to put together in a honda let alone graft into a 914. Any cost savings he might get from his connections will be ate up by the number of modifications he will need to get decent power from his engine. IE: Buy a vtec motor and turbocharge it or just buy a 3sgte? For the vtec motor you will need to buy the turbo, wastegate, manifold, engine management system and probably change the injector sizes for beginners. And then you have all the headaches of tuning and trying to keep the engine from blowing itself up. For the 3sgte you use the stock ecu and turn up the boost a little - maybe change the injectors or increase fuel pressure if needed. Which do you think would be the better choice?

I used to own a Honda Prelude and it was a nice car but only after I bought my 944 turbo did I find out that the Honda was gutless. On top of that the mods that most people "get hooked up with" are things like exhausts, headers, intakes, etc. and these for the most part give only minimal gains. A guy I ran with in Solo 1 found out that the Mugen header on his Type R actually cost him a few hundreths of a second a lap. He did better with the stock system.

[Mueller]

okay...here is the drivers side* of a 4 banger honda motor
the 2 red circles are towards the front of the engine, a mount can be made to bolt there and go forward, this in turn would mate to a mount that you have bolted/welded to the firewall





*once motor turned 90° in the correct orientation

[Mueller]

now if you look at the other side of the engine, the blue circles are the factory motor mounts if you removed that , the 2 red circles have bosses that can be used to mount the motor.....pretty simple if you ask me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

if space permitted, you could always fabricate a mount that ties the the "drivers side" of the engine to the factory mount (in blue) and hang the motor off the front of the engine....this is sorta how it is done on Boxsters and factory 914/6 engines (even some 914 /6 conversions with much bigger engines)

[Mueller]

oh yea...the discussion of 400hp Honda engines DOES NOT belong here......period, the guy is on a dirt cheap budget so the idea of getting that much power is totally irrelevant right now in my opinion...let's stick to the thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sixnotfour]

Start a spread sheet on the Costs,  
                      engine
                      adapter
                      and so on

I was thinking that economically , I bet that  the VR6 set up is priced right , and is different.  
                                                 Thats .002 cents please  :D

How much for your 2.0 4 youre taking out out of the car ?burnout:

[J P Stein]

maybe a 911, i've never heard of a honda outhandling a well built 914. and i doubt i will.....

You aren't looking in the right place.

From the SCCA AX Nationals:
D Prepared Honda Civic .......93.974
No 914s of any ilk have listed times in the Sports Car results.
To have a listed time, you have to trophy.
The guy (BMW) that beat Fordahl (914) in F Prepared last year won again this year in 93.952.
Fordahl ran a GT3 in ASP: 96.468.....3rd place.
These a cumulative times for 2 courses.


A honda car is a gud place for a Honda motor. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[scotty914]

personally a suby motor is just about bolt in, kep has the wiring stuff it you want to do it your self or small car can do the wiring for you. there is a motor mount you can buy, the adapter has been around for ever. also there are about 500 suby motors pushing vanagons ( type IV factory), that is a hell of a knowledge base.

heck the suby motor is even based on porsche and vw designes

[Brett W]

All this talk about power and handling with Hondas, lets just see for ourselves. I'll take this engine as a swap anyday. He can keep the brakes though.

Not bad for a full street car. I see he suffers from the common problem of broken wheel bearings. Sure has good pull though. Even though he has aftermarket calipers he didn't bother to do anything about the little dinky rotors. Brakes are one thing the Germans now how to do right. I can't tell you how many times I wished I had the teener brakes on my civic. NEED MORE BRAKE.

I don't know what part of the world you live in but around here I don't know of a single 400 hp honda let alone 600 hp.

I'll be happy to start another thread to show your ignorance. HP is never cheap. I don't care what you build. Isn't the 3SGTE the engine in the MR2. I hear it likes to pop head gaskets and connecting rods when you crank the boost up?

I used to own a Honda Prelude and it was a nice car but only after I bought my 944 turbo did I find out that the Honda was gutless.

OK that is like comparing a Honda 100 mini bike to a Suzuki GSXR 1000. Apples to oranges. What year Prelude? Maybe 200hp pushing a 2800lb car. Yeah driving a tank will feel gutless. I can assure you My stock Civic Si with 105hp is just as much fun as a stock 2.0 914. They weigh about the same, performance is comparable, the civic may be a touch faster in a straight line, but it makes a great daily driver and I can haul some shit in it as well.

If you want to see a civc out handle a 911 or 914 look at many of the Solo 2 classes. JP hit that one on the head.

I agree on the Subby. Drop in for cheap.

[mattillac]

mueller, great job on the pics! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) you just happened to have a honda motor laying around? looks like with the right brackets and a modified engine mount bar or a custom one, mounting that engine to the red circle holes wouldn't be too hard. maybe the stock bar would work, just custom mounts and a custom oil pan. hmm. this is starting to look a little more promising.

i'm still not sure how hard flipping the ring and pinion will be.

again, mueller, (IMG:style_emoticons/default/clap56.gif) nice job on the pics. whats the engine code for that one?

[soloracer]

Brett,

I'm hardly as "ignorant" as you suggest - just as I'm sure your ego won't lead you to believe you are the definitive source of all engine knowledge. In your original post you were throwing out some big numbers from Honda engines like they were common place. If our friend is interested in getting a reliable, under 200 hp engine and will keep it stock then by all means get the Honda. However, it sounds like a big reason for his getting the Honda is he is hooked up with an aftermarket parts supplier. This line of thinking seems to me like he is choosing the motor more for performance than for reliability. In my opinion the reason he gave (aftermarket parts supplier) is a really poor reason to go with the Honda engine because most of the aftermarket engine bolt on stuff for Honda's is geared towards the ricer and has limited power potential for what you pay. Additionally, which someone else brought up, a lot of the parts are car specific - not engine specific - and may not fit in a 914.

My suggestion was to start with something that had more potential for the same money. In response to your "HP is never cheap" comment I would like to note that HP is cheaper in some engines than others. Case in point is the Type IV engine. It costs big dollars to get more out of it. Now take a good ol' chevy 350 and drop the same amount of money in it and you'll see much larger gains.

As for my Prelude it was a 1990 SR - 140 hp stock. I went around the track here with an instructor in a Honda Civic Si and it was a blast. I then had him drive my Prelude and we were able to keep up with another instructor in an M3 through the corners which blew me away. Of course on the straights we got dusted pretty bad. The point is the Honda can be fun to drive like you say. However, most of the "ricer" guys aren't going to drive at the track like you do. Most "ricers" are poseurs - a large percentage of which are Honda guys - who bolt shit on and think they are now comparable to a corvette, viper, M3, 911, etc. They also spout of the virtues of V-TEC like it's a the end all be all. Honda has done a good job of marketing their product quoting some impressive power figures but what people don't pay attention to is that peak HP is not the answer. Having the most useable horsepower and torque through the broadest powerband is more important. Who cares if the engine spikes to 200 hp for a span of 200 rpm if the for the previous 4500 rpm it's below 130? Muellers VR6 swap make more sense to me than the Honda.

[mattillac]

the reasons i'm opting for honda power:

1. reliability.
2. i have a line on COMPLETE motors and tuning resources at a very reasonable price.
3. a multitude of aftermarket parts to choose from at a good price also.
4. more power than my type 4 at a lower cost(for the engine).
5. i like the variable valve timing thing, hype or no hype.
6. i miss my rx-7, and i have the need for a motor that i can rev the shit out of without
breaking(at least not breaking right away).

whether or not these are good reasons is a matter of personal opinion. i don't really plan on maxing this motor out. a few simple hardware/software mods is all i'm looking for at first. i'm just finally figuring out that i'm never gonna get the power i want out of my type 4 without breaking my bank. the honda may break me at first, but in the long run i think i'll enjoy it more. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/driving.gif)

[J P Stein]

For me, this all boils down to.....Whatcha gonna do with it when it's "done"?

Go on drives? Park it in a lot & open the engine lid?
Blow off ricers on the street? Brag that ya built it?
Post pics on the net? Ask a whole bunch of money for it on Ebay? AX? Race? Rally?

I love hot rods & the idea of hot rods, but for me they are not, in themselves, the endgame.

[Sammy]

Shame on all of you.
A porsche engine should be left completely stock as the good doctor intended. No modifications, no engine swaps. It should be just as it left the factory (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif)