Yet another starter issue Options

[Rand]

Somebody suggested a defective starter. If this is the case, why would it work fine with the push button remote starter?

It wouldn't. I think the confusion regarding this is you mentioned the starter spins but not the engine. Like I said, that suggests you should verify you are jumping the correct terminals so you know you are engaging the solenoid and not just the starter motor.

I'll bet a beer the problem is a cracked plastic insert in the ignition switch. If you can jumper the correct wires there and it cranks, you have your answer confirmed. This happened to me and I wired a momentary toggle switch to get by until I got a new part.

[Tom]

Did you also clean the female contacts where they go on the relay board? And closely inspect the larger 2 of the 4 red wires at the battery +. If they look corroded where the metal connector is attached, cut them off and replace. If you are getting the voltage there under no load, and it won't power the solenoid, you have a loss of connectivity under loading. Ie; it won't pass enough current!
Tom

[saigon71]

Somebody suggested a defective starter. If this is the case, why would it work fine with the push button remote starter?

It wouldn't. The plastic insert in the ignition switch is likely cracked. If you can jumper the correct wires there and it starts, you have your answer confirmed. This happened to me and I wired a momentary toggle switch to get by until I got a new part.

Just installed a new ignition switch from GPR today...unless the new switch is defective, I don't think it's the switch.

[Rand]

Just installed a new ignition switch from GPR today...unless the new switch is defective, I don't think it's the switch.

Doh! I might owe you a beer.

Just to clarify.... You did get the engine to crank with the remote start switch, right? Or just the starter motor spun? If the former, you can at least rule out the starter and you know it's in the wiring somewhere between there and the ignition switch. In that case, only a few connection breakpoints to rule out in between.

[Bob L.]

It could be the tang on the key cylinder is twisted backwards. It no longer rotates the electrical switch far enough around to connect the circuit.

I don't know if the tang can be twisted back without breaking. I clocked the switch backward to compensate. you have to file one edge, shim the other, and elongate the screw hole a bit.

Keep in mind, you may have more than one "cause".

[saigon71]

Just installed a new ignition switch from GPR today...unless the new switch is defective, I don't think it's the switch.

Doh! I might owe you a beer.

Just to clarify.... You did get the engine to crank with the remote start switch, right? Or just the starter motor spun? If the former, you can at least rule out the starter and you know it's in the wiring somewhere between there and the ignition switch. In that case, only a few connection breakpoints to rule out in between.

The engine cranked with the remote starter switch. The switch was wired directly between the solenoid connection and the power terminal of the starter.

Yes, earlier when I posted about the starter turning but not cranking the engine I simply shorted the large terminals and never engaged the solenoid.

[914itis]

Just installed a new ignition switch from GPR today...unless the new switch is defective, I don't think it's the switch.

Doh! I might owe you a beer.

Just to clarify.... You did get the engine to crank with the remote start switch, right? Or just the starter motor spun? If the former, you can at least rule out the starter and you know it's in the wiring somewhere between there and the ignition switch. In that case, only a few connection breakpoints to rule out in between.

The engine cranked with the remote starter switch. The switch was wired directly between the solenoid connection and the power terminal of the starter.

Yes, earlier when I posted about the starter turning but not cranking the engine I simply shorted the large terminals and never engaged the solenoid.

By never engage the solenoid, I think. He meant that the ignition was not on, the starter just turned but no ingnion.

[TheCabinetmaker]

Your remote switch is supplying a full 12 or more volts to the solenoid causing it to engage the gear. Your possibly losing voltage in the solenoid connection to battery terminal. Bad solenoid. Sometimes it works, sometimes it won't. Flaps starters are rebuilt in Mexico and are crap. The do not"rebuild" them. They fix just what it takes to make it work on the bench. They are not tested under load. I have one that is freshly cleaned,inspected, and tested by a 50 year rebuilder. His starters usually last for 50 thousand miles. I'd part with it if you need it

[Rand]

By never engage the solenoid, I think. He meant that the ignition was not on, the starter just turned but no ingnion.

I think you are right about not engaging the solenoid. But we are still speculating, which doesn't help find a solution. This is traceable. Step by step.

Did the engine turn or not? <-- Answer this first please. ("Ignition=spark!=crank")

[saigon71]

By never engage the solenoid, I think. He meant that the ignition was not on, the starter just turned but no ingnion.

I think you are right about not engaging the solenoid. But we are still speculating, which doesn't help find a solution. This is traceable. Step by step.

Did the engine turn or not? <-- Answer this first please. ("Ignition=spark!=crank")

The engine turned over and started right up when I jumped the connection from the solenoid (where the yellow wire connects) to the positive terminal on the starter. This is how I wired the push button start button from my local FLAPS & the car started every time.

[saigon71]

Did you also clean the female contacts where they go on the relay board? And closely inspect the larger 2 of the 4 red wires at the battery +. If they look corroded where the metal connector is attached, cut them off and replace. If you are getting the voltage there under no load, and it won't power the solenoid, you have a loss of connectivity under loading. Ie; it won't pass enough current!
Tom

I didn't have a gun cleaning kit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But I rolled up 220 grit sandpaper and cleaned all the female connections on the starter relay board (yellow wire) connection. Pulled all wires out of the positive battery terminal again, hit them with a wire brush and reinstalled. Still no start.

[Rand]

The engine turned over and started right up when I jumped the connection from the solenoid (where the yellow wire connects) to the positive terminal on the starter.

That would firmly rule out the starter. Chase another rabbit hole. There's a bad/dirty connection. It's just a matter of finding it, but it's simple methodical process. Please don't install a ford relay to patch it.... We can find the real problem.

[Tom]

While I did not have a starter issue, when I redid the 4 red wires at the battery, I found a lot of corrosion in the wires near the connectors and a good number of broken strands of the small wires that make up the wire. Cutting them back and replacing the connectors made the current carrying capacity much better.
The large wires that go to the dash area had 55 small strands, of which 14 were broken. This can cause voltage to be present, but current carrying capacity to be down by about 20%. The initial current to activate the solenoid is about 35 amps, check the Haynes manual to confirm. This much loss of current can allow the solenoid to not work. Actually any connection between the battery and the starter solenoid can cause this sometime start/ sometimes not condition. That is why your temporary "fix" works, while the normal circuit does not. You need to put a voltmeter on the start yellow wire at the solenoid and monitor it under load, not just when the yellow wire is disconnected from the solenoid. If you have under 8 volts when you check this yellow wire under load, then there is a bad connection between the battery and the starter solenoid. Since you already replaced the key switch, it must be somewhere else that is causing the loss of current flow. The most obvious place is the large red wire that goes to the fuse panel then the key switch because of the exposure to battery acid, moisture ,and heat, etc. Cut them back and put new ring terminals and see if this helps.
Tom

[saigon71]

While I did not have a starter issue, when I redid the 4 red wires at the battery, I found a lot of corrosion in the wires near the connectors and a good number of broken strands of the small wires that make up the wire. Cutting them back and replacing the connectors made the current carrying capacity much better.
The large wires that go to the dash area had 55 small strands, of which 14 were broken. This can cause voltage to be present, but current carrying capacity to be down by about 20%. The initial current to activate the solenoid is about 35 amps, check the Haynes manual to confirm. This much loss of current can allow the solenoid to not work. Actually any connection between the battery and the starter solenoid can cause this sometime start/ sometimes not condition. That is why your temporary "fix" works, while the normal circuit does not. You need to put a voltmeter on the start yellow wire at the solenoid and monitor it under load, not just when the yellow wire is disconnected from the solenoid. If you have under 8 volts when you check this yellow wire under load, then there is a bad connection between the battery and the starter solenoid. Since you already replaced the key switch, it must be somewhere else that is causing the loss of current flow. The most obvious place is the large red wire that goes to the fuse panel then the key switch because of the exposure to battery acid, moisture ,and heat, etc. Cut them back and put new ring terminals and see if this helps.
Tom

I just checked the voltage at the yellow wire under load. 9.25 volts. Is this enough or does it still indicate a bad connection somewhere?

[TheCabinetmaker]

That voltage would turn it slow if at all. You definately have a problem besides the starter. Check voltage at the other end of that yellow wire (pin 6 of the 12 pin connector on the relay board) under load. Its the 3rd from the front, on the right side of the connector.

[Randal]

The dash lights should be on while cranking. If those aren't on, your coil doesn't have power either and the car won't start.

the starter turns over, but the engine does not..

Does this mean that the starter spins without engaging the flywheel? If this is the case then it's definitely the starter itself. Nothing else can cause that.

Except for incorrect throw on the starter gear. When I bought my Tilton starter I was asked to carefully measure from the housing to the ring gear so that the starter could be matched to the dimension. And the gear is supposed to engage the center of the ring gear, not either side.

Wondering if that was done? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tom]

Was the starter and solenoid working when you saw 9.25 volts? That sounds a little too close to the low limit for the solenoid to work. Try the same test with your push to start switch. If it is significantly higher, 1 volt or more, I would think you still have a bad connection somewhere.
You can find the bad connection by performing the same test with the ignition switch but backing up toward the ignition switch but using the yellow wire connectors to ground. Any one of the connectors could be dropping the current under load. If you came to one that is higher than the one before, then the one before is the bad one. Relay board 12 pin, relay board 14 pin, seat belt relay ( if you have one), ignition switch, fuse panel, battery +.
Tom

[saigon71]

Was the starter and solenoid working when you saw 9.25 volts? That sounds a little too close to the low limit for the solenoid to work. Try the same test with your push to start switch. If it is significantly higher, 1 volt or more, I would think you still have a bad connection somewhere.
You can find the bad connection by performing the same test with the ignition switch but backing up toward the ignition switch but using the yellow wire connectors to ground. Any one of the connectors could be dropping the current under load. If you came to one that is higher than the one before, then the one before is the bad one. Relay board 12 pin, relay board 14 pin, seat belt relay ( if you have one), ignition switch, fuse panel, battery +.
Tom

Starter & solenoid were not working when I saw the 9.25 volts.

Installed a brand new battery ground strap and heavy wire that runs to the starter. Stripped back the four red wires that connect to the positive battery terminal and installed new connectors. Voltage test under load is up to 9.6 V (yellow wire at the starter). The car would start intermittently using the key at this voltage, but there was a momentary pause before it would kick over when I turned the key to "start." Have 9.6 V at both the 12 and 14 pin connector under load on the relay board.

Running out of steam tonight...will trace it back further tomorrow.

[Porschef]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Bob L may have the key; I replaced my switch but found that the tang wouldn't rotate the switch fully. So I used a bunch of small aluminum foil strips to serve as shim stock to tighten up the relation between the switch and key tang.

Worked great. just kept forcing the strips in with the switch. Been trouble free for over a year.

[Tom]

That jumper of the yellow wire at the seat belt relay is starting to sound suspect. Here is an easy way to check it. Using a small straight pin, push the pin in the yellow wire from the key switch, take a reading. Then push the pin in after the splice and take another reading. They should be the same. If not, the splice is bad.
Tom