Car is running great, but starting is hit-or-miss. Heading to a local car show on Saturday and I would prefer to NOT be push starting it. Car is a 1974 D-Jet.

- Doesn't matter if it is hot or cold
- New starter from FLAPS installed
- Seat belt logic under passenger seat bypassed by jumping yellow/yellow-red wires together.
- Grounds all clean
- New Optima battery
- New Battery terminals installed

When I jump the terminals on the starter with a screwdriver & the ignition switch on, the starter turns over, but the engine does not...is this normal?

It could be my ignition switch, but I want to eliminate everything else first.

Where do I go from here? Thanks.

Fuel pump runs for a few seconds when key is turned too.

Silly question.
Did you remember to attach the transmission ground trap?

That's normal.

Just verified. Attached, clean and tight.

Just came in from the shop doing some further testing:

- If I touch a quarter from the male spade connector (where the yellow starter wire connects), to the positive battery terminal, the car starts.

- 12V present at yellow wire at starter when ignition is turned to start.

- 11.92V measured on terminal 2 of the relay board when ignition is turned to start, and car actually started, scaring the hell out of me.

- 12.36V at the starter connection from the battery.

Leaning toward a bad ignition switch...am I missing anything?

Your answer is in the second paragraph.
"New starter from flaps". Good luck.

Ignition switch IMHO, just replaced mine cause I was having similar issues. Starts right up now.

Good possibility, even if you got 12V when you tested the yellow at the starter. If you've never changed it, it's almost surely the original one, so if it isn't the problem now, it will be soon enough. Easy to change, so I'd put it on my list of things to do. Chad had his back in right away.

Appreciate the responses.

Removed all wires from positive battery terminal & scrubbed them down with wire brush...reinstalled. Cleaned positive battery terminal yet again. Car started eight consecutive times. Put cap back on connector that contains yellow starter wire on relay board & installed relay board cover. Car won't start any more.

Ordering a new ignition switch tomorrow. I don't know what else it could be.

The dash lights should be on while cranking. If those aren't on, your coil doesn't have power either and the car won't start.
Does this mean that the starter spins without engaging the flywheel? If this is the case then it's definitely the starter itself. Nothing else can cause that.

Have power everywhere else...but starter doesn't even click.

Yes. Tried it three times. The starter itself spins without cranking the engine (not engaging the flywheel) when I short the starter connection with a screwdriver.

when you short it with a screw driver, the ignition (key) must be turned to ON position.
if not, it will crank but will not start

Definitely sounds like a defective starter to me.

Wait, what? You are jumping the wrong terminals then. You need to engage the solenoid. Different terminal.

It's a 74? Check under the passenger's seat for the Dreaded Seatbelt Interlock Relay. Jumper the two fat yellow wires together (better yet, permanently splice them and shrink-tube the connection) and throw the relay away.

--DD

Bob,
From your post #10. The car started 8 times then you put the cap back on the connector on the relay board with the big yellow wire. Now car will not start.
Remove that connector and clean both the male and female ends. You can slightly spread the male ends with a sharp knife for better contact.
Tom

Gotta be something on the relay board and connectors .

Bob,
While you are at it, clean the forward connector contacts also. BE SURE to disconnect the battery before removing the forward connector. It has un-switched and unprotected battery + on two pins, #12 and #14.
For the female contacts, I used a small wire brush of the type used to clean the bore of a 22 cal. Put it in a small variable speed drill and turn slowly. Wash out with isopropyl alcohol, blow dry.
Tom

Still battling this...

Temporarily installed a remote push button starter switch in the engine bay to get through last weekend. Starter engages and the car starts every single time this way.

Installed a new ignition switch today from GPR. My old one was cracked so I thought for sure I found the problem. I did not - car still won't turn over.

Swapped out the relay board.

Tested for voltage at the starter and solenoid - this is what I found:

12.32V on the main terminal where the battery connects with ignition in the on position

11.85V on the main terminal where the battery connects with ignition in the crank position

12.14V to the yellow solenoid wire with ignition in the crank position

What gives?

Somebody suggested a defective starter. If this is the case, why would it work fine with the push button remote starter?

If it were a relay board problem, would I still get 12+ V to the solenoid when the ignition is turned to the crank position?

Again, the seat belt relay logic has been disabled by disconnecting the two large yellow wires and running a jumper between them...heat shrinked the whole jumper setup.

I'm not sure where to go from here.

It wouldn't. I think the confusion regarding this is you mentioned the starter spins but not the engine. Like I said, that suggests you should verify you are jumping the correct terminals so you know you are engaging the solenoid and not just the starter motor.

I'll bet a beer the problem is a cracked plastic insert in the ignition switch. If you can jumper the correct wires there and it cranks, you have your answer confirmed. This happened to me and I wired a momentary toggle switch to get by until I got a new part.

Did you also clean the female contacts where they go on the relay board? And closely inspect the larger 2 of the 4 red wires at the battery +. If they look corroded where the metal connector is attached, cut them off and replace. If you are getting the voltage there under no load, and it won't power the solenoid, you have a loss of connectivity under loading. Ie; it won't pass enough current!
Tom

Just installed a new ignition switch from GPR today...unless the new switch is defective, I don't think it's the switch.

Doh! I might owe you a beer.

Just to clarify.... You did get the engine to crank with the remote start switch, right? Or just the starter motor spun? If the former, you can at least rule out the starter and you know it's in the wiring somewhere between there and the ignition switch. In that case, only a few connection breakpoints to rule out in between.

It could be the tang on the key cylinder is twisted backwards. It no longer rotates the electrical switch far enough around to connect the circuit.

I don't know if the tang can be twisted back without breaking. I clocked the switch backward to compensate. you have to file one edge, shim the other, and elongate the screw hole a bit.

Keep in mind, you may have more than one "cause".

The engine cranked with the remote starter switch. The switch was wired directly between the solenoid connection and the power terminal of the starter.

Yes, earlier when I posted about the starter turning but not cranking the engine I simply shorted the large terminals and never engaged the solenoid.

By never engage the solenoid, I think. He meant that the ignition was not on, the starter just turned but no ingnion.

Your remote switch is supplying a full 12 or more volts to the solenoid causing it to engage the gear. Your possibly losing voltage in the solenoid connection to battery terminal. Bad solenoid. Sometimes it works, sometimes it won't. Flaps starters are rebuilt in Mexico and are crap. The do not"rebuild" them. They fix just what it takes to make it work on the bench. They are not tested under load. I have one that is freshly cleaned,inspected, and tested by a 50 year rebuilder. His starters usually last for 50 thousand miles. I'd part with it if you need it

I think you are right about not engaging the solenoid. But we are still speculating, which doesn't help find a solution. This is traceable. Step by step.

Did the engine turn or not? <-- Answer this first please. ("Ignition=spark!=crank")

The engine turned over and started right up when I jumped the connection from the solenoid (where the yellow wire connects) to the positive terminal on the starter. This is how I wired the push button start button from my local FLAPS & the car started every time.

I didn't have a gun cleaning kit. But I rolled up 220 grit sandpaper and cleaned all the female connections on the starter relay board (yellow wire) connection. Pulled all wires out of the positive battery terminal again, hit them with a wire brush and reinstalled. Still no start.

That would firmly rule out the starter. Chase another rabbit hole. There's a bad/dirty connection. It's just a matter of finding it, but it's simple methodical process. Please don't install a ford relay to patch it.... We can find the real problem.

While I did not have a starter issue, when I redid the 4 red wires at the battery, I found a lot of corrosion in the wires near the connectors and a good number of broken strands of the small wires that make up the wire. Cutting them back and replacing the connectors made the current carrying capacity much better.
The large wires that go to the dash area had 55 small strands, of which 14 were broken. This can cause voltage to be present, but current carrying capacity to be down by about 20%. The initial current to activate the solenoid is about 35 amps, check the Haynes manual to confirm. This much loss of current can allow the solenoid to not work. Actually any connection between the battery and the starter solenoid can cause this sometime start/ sometimes not condition. That is why your temporary "fix" works, while the normal circuit does not. You need to put a voltmeter on the start yellow wire at the solenoid and monitor it under load, not just when the yellow wire is disconnected from the solenoid. If you have under 8 volts when you check this yellow wire under load, then there is a bad connection between the battery and the starter solenoid. Since you already replaced the key switch, it must be somewhere else that is causing the loss of current flow. The most obvious place is the large red wire that goes to the fuse panel then the key switch because of the exposure to battery acid, moisture ,and heat, etc. Cut them back and put new ring terminals and see if this helps.
Tom

I just checked the voltage at the yellow wire under load. 9.25 volts. Is this enough or does it still indicate a bad connection somewhere?

That voltage would turn it slow if at all. You definately have a problem besides the starter. Check voltage at the other end of that yellow wire (pin 6 of the 12 pin connector on the relay board) under load. Its the 3rd from the front, on the right side of the connector.

Except for incorrect throw on the starter gear. When I bought my Tilton starter I was asked to carefully measure from the housing to the ring gear so that the starter could be matched to the dimension. And the gear is supposed to engage the center of the ring gear, not either side.

Wondering if that was done?

Was the starter and solenoid working when you saw 9.25 volts? That sounds a little too close to the low limit for the solenoid to work. Try the same test with your push to start switch. If it is significantly higher, 1 volt or more, I would think you still have a bad connection somewhere.
You can find the bad connection by performing the same test with the ignition switch but backing up toward the ignition switch but using the yellow wire connectors to ground. Any one of the connectors could be dropping the current under load. If you came to one that is higher than the one before, then the one before is the bad one. Relay board 12 pin, relay board 14 pin, seat belt relay ( if you have one), ignition switch, fuse panel, battery +.
Tom

Starter & solenoid were not working when I saw the 9.25 volts.

Installed a brand new battery ground strap and heavy wire that runs to the starter. Stripped back the four red wires that connect to the positive battery terminal and installed new connectors. Voltage test under load is up to 9.6 V (yellow wire at the starter). The car would start intermittently using the key at this voltage, but there was a momentary pause before it would kick over when I turned the key to "start." Have 9.6 V at both the 12 and 14 pin connector under load on the relay board.

Running out of steam tonight...will trace it back further tomorrow.

Bob L may have the key; I replaced my switch but found that the tang wouldn't rotate the switch fully. So I used a bunch of small aluminum foil strips to serve as shim stock to tighten up the relation between the switch and key tang.

Worked great. just kept forcing the strips in with the switch. Been trouble free for over a year.

That jumper of the yellow wire at the seat belt relay is starting to sound suspect. Here is an easy way to check it. Using a small straight pin, push the pin in the yellow wire from the key switch, take a reading. Then push the pin in after the splice and take another reading. They should be the same. If not, the splice is bad.
Tom

Success!

There were multiple problems in the starting system. Wanted to rule out the seat belt logic early on so I ran a jumper wire between the yellow wires and shrink wrapped the entire joint. Went on to find the ignition switch cracked...replaced - no dice. Ran new electrical cables - still no better. Took the relatively new Optima battery in today for a load test - looked great

Used Tom's pin method on both sides of my splice. Under load, there was about .7 volt difference. Splice wasn't heavy enough of a gauge wire to handle the current. Hadn't even given it thought.

Car is firing up with the key every time now.

Thanks for the responses...appreciate the help.

nice to hear you got the problem licked.

i'm torn between, butt crimp connectors, and soldering, for wire joining?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4y3iCWDpjE8

jim

Soldering automotive wiring isn't the best of ideas. Bosch, VW/Audi, and Porsche specifically tell you NOT to do it. Use quality non-insulated butt connectors of the appropriate diameter and cover the joint with shrink tubing. Use a proper crimping tool, too.

The Cap'n

An expert can get solder joints that are appropriate for automotive applications. There are few of us who are experts at that level--and if you have to ask, you're not. For the rest of us, crimped splices are better, assuming you're using a good crimper that applies the right amount of force (hint: It's a lot!) and uses the correct shaped die--usually the one that makes the ends of the crimp lugs curl around and push back into the wire.

The "universal electrical tool" type crimpers you can get at every FLAPS everywhere are very much not the correct tool for the job.

--DD

So glad YOU were able to find and fix it. Sometime we all need a little help!
Tom

Starter issues returned. It got to the point that I couldn't even get it started with a push button start switch while on a road trip.

After doing some research on 914world, I bought a new hi-torque mini starter from this ebay seller:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PORSCHE-911-MINI-S...=item4ac9f460b4

It came with a shim. The factory starter bolts weren't long enough to use the shim, so I installed it without.

Oil leaks have kept me from testing it on the road, but it seems to be working well, cranking every single time. My next step is McMarks relay kit if this doesn't work.

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as for shims, I don't understand. the only need I can see for shims is if the starter plunger pops out too far, thus past the flywheel teeth. if plunger does not pop out far enough, I see no fix for this.

it is certainly ideal I assume if teeth on starter and teeth on flywheel line up perfectly.

I have a renegade hi torque starter (brand model unknown - could be Chinese for all I know) on my v8 but I am definitely going to add a relay, probably a ford unit like mark henry uses, as this unit looks more heavy duty and weather resistant. as I want to ensure my starter is getting full power when in operation.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...2&hl=relays