Purchase price vs. resale price, possibly shooting ourselves in the foot? Options

[pete-stevers]

What the heck are you guys talking about??? If the curent price dictated by the market for a descent teener runs 2 to5 k let just keep this secret to ourselves and buy as many of the damn things as our wife will allow... We have two in the family now... and I would like to buy another one in the next year... if finances don't go in the toilet...
Lets buy em up market price will adjust accordingly, and WE will be the winners!!! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/mueba.gif)

[MarkG]

Sold my 308 Ferrari this summer. Bought a '76 914.

For the price of a good Raby motor for our 914's, you could replace the timming belts/gears on my 308. ($4-6k depending on parts/labor)

For the price of a standard economy 2.0 rebuild you could buy the distributor caps and rotors (dual) for my 308. ($500 ea for caps, $130 ea rotors)

For a good used 2.0 -3.0 911 motor you could buy my windshield. Add a 308 clutch/flywheel job and you could do an entire 6 conversion.....($6k +...)

Price is all relevant.....it just depends on what it's worth to you. Nothing wrong with spending thousands on a 914 if that's what you want, you will never recoupe your investment, but for me spending money on my 914 is for my pleasure, not investment.

I will say this though: NEVER but an "F" car.......stick with the "P" cars.....

[jwalters]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) to an extent--You did not mention what you got for your 308---vs. what you paid for it--we would all like to know--and be truthful about it........... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[brant]

Yeah, I agree with what chris said.

I sold an SC to spend more money on a 914.
If you think an SC at 14K is a better car then fine


also realize that some person out there will make the argument about their dodge neon being better than a 914 or a 911...

(heck an SRT neon will dust them both on the street and on the track for only 18K)

but I don't like neon's...
I like 914's (I like 911's too but not as much as 914's)

The point is that all car guys sink double the money into their cars as they could get out of them.. 911 guys sink a ton of money into their cars too.. Look at the original selling price of a car. In their day a 914 was 5k and a 911 was 7-8K. There are/were a lot of 914's made, so its a tough argument to say that they are so rare that they should out valube a 911.

I agree with the market value arguments.
If you want 914's to be worth 20K then let me sell mine to you and that way you and I can write a letter to bruce anderson and show the world that this is the correct value...

heck maybe I can sell you 2 of them for 40K...

brant

[Howard]

QUOTE (aircooledboy @ Dec 27 2004, 01:12 PM)

I spend money on my teeners because I love them and I want them to be as fun and dependable as possible. If I was interested in investment values, I would not be spending the money on this or any other sports car. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

Amen, bro!
I'm in it for the grin factor.

Got a really nice 914 2.0 for $5800. Dumped in another 2 grand. Nobody grins louder than me, and that's the real value. IMHO I'll recoup the $$ investment in my kids and dogs before I break even on the 914.

[MarkG]

QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 01:20 PM)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) to an extent--You did not mention what you got for your 308---vs. what you paid for it--we would all like to know--and be truthful about it........... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

Paid 27K for car in June 3 years ago. Took it to Concours Cars in Colorado Springs for look-over.

It needed timing gears, clutch, flywheel, routing tunning and other misc. items, so by July I had another $18k invested.

Drove it to Las Vegas that Sept, rear wheel bearing went bad, so did them when I got back (exact same as 911 so no biggie). Throw in another $600 for bad fuse boxes and thermo-time switch.

Drove it all around Colorado and New Mexico for the next 2 years, when a timing cover bearing went bad - $2.5k to fix, said screw it and E-bayed -unfixed- it for $18k.

Net loss: $25K +/- a few. Had to decide on a retirement consisting of cat food and living in my car, or cutting my losses and moving on!

Labor was the killer, if I had had a better place to work on it total investment would have been about $9-11k less and I would still be driving it.

That describes the money end of F cars; some people just don't like expensive cars, and mine was hit by vandals 3 times, once resulting in $1k damage. You can't just park it and leave it, so a break-down in the middle of nowhere is a disaster. There is no such thing as a quick stop for gas or at the 7-11, crowds appear out of nowhere. Every 17 y.o. zit faced kid with a Ricer wants to race you, rednecks in their 15' high pickup trucks want to race you, and 18 wheelers who can't see you want to crush you!

[jwalters]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) I t is always so interesting how so many people will get the facts sooo wrong...kinda like how suzy and bobby made out, then by the time it got passed around suzy was pregnant and bobby was dead from her father.

Who said anything about the 914 eclipsing the 911???

I see 911's heavily modified all day long get the money asked by the owners---the 914 crowd does the same thing, they get what they ask...ever hear the term;" you get what you ask for?"...point here is ASKING PRICE.

yes, maybe the 911 guy is not getting all he has into it---but then again, I see it happen that he does, and some even make money.

Again I am going to say it again-----we should not have to invest so much time and money into a car when a '59 morris mini in pieces commands 4k.

Am I saying get out of it what we put into it?? NO, but somehow this thread has moved to that leftest wing party.

Great that you love your car and enjoy putting thousands into it with no possible hope of any worthwhile return, you obviously are stinking rich, good for you, I and thousands like me are not, you are just one in the crowd--of thousands who would like to see SOME return in the investment.

This will not happen until attitudes change--and yes, the market could explode on these cars---it has happened with many, many others, but again I am referring to "Affordable" with respect to the thousands we are investing into them--don't say it does not happen--you see it every time you pick up a copy of excellance. Why would anybody, even for the pure enjoyment, allow something like this to occur--this is the basis of capitalism and our society--only people with all the money in the world do not care what happens...or do they...how did they get so rich in the first place...wise investments,,,helping the market expand,,

[tracks914]

I think, depending on your skill level, you should be able to get out of your 914 what you put into it parts only. Your labour should be a labour of love.
I'm into my car for about $9500. It's appraised at $17,000. But I did my motor, body, interior (except for 4 panels in the seats) and paint all myself. To have paid someone to do this would have easily doubled the cost to do the car! If I sold it, I would like to think I could get $10-$12 K for the car but for the hours I have into it I would be making $1/hour. I didn't do it to lose money or to make money, just to enjoy it and hopefully break even.
However, I am in the market for another car to do as my next project so I would like to see the value stay low for a while so I can pick up a good resto and a good parts car cheap. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

[Root_Werks]

I would say I am only into mine for around $7k now and wouldn't let it go for anything less than $10k. So if you are patient and have the 914club as a resource, you can make money off of 914's. Add in my labor and of course I would loose money, but I like thinking I helped keep another 914 on the road. That is why the one I got for my wife was also sort of a save. Had it sat out another couple of years, it would have been toast. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/welder.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sawzall-smiley.gif)

[jwalters]

QUOTE (MarkG @ Dec 27 2004, 01:39 PM)

QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 01:20 PM) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)    to an extent--You did not mention what you got for your 308---vs. what you paid for it--we would all like to know--and be truthful about it........... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) Paid 27K for car in June 3 years ago. Took it to Concours Cars in Colorado Springs for look-over. It needed timing gears, clutch, flywheel, routing tunning and other misc. items, so by July I had another $18k invested. Drove it to Las Vegas that Sept, rear wheel bearing went bad, so did them when I got back (exact same as 911 so no biggie). Throw in another $600 for bad fuse boxes and thermo-time switch. Drove it all around Colorado and New Mexico for the next 2 years, when a timing cover bearing went bad - $2.5k to fix, said screw it and E-bayed -unfixed- it for $18k. Net loss: $25K +/- a few. Had to decide on a retirement consisting of cat food and living in my car, or cutting my losses and moving on! Labor was the killer, if I had had a better place to work on it total investment would have been about $9-11k less and I would still be driving it. That describes the money end of F cars; some people just don't like expensive cars, and mine was hit by vandals 3 times, once resulting in $1k damage. You can't just park it and leave it, so a break-down in the middle of nowhere is a disaster. There is no such thing as a quick stop for gas or at the 7-11, crowds appear out of nowhere. Every 17 y.o. zit faced kid with a Ricer wants to race you, rednecks in their 15' high pickup trucks want to race you, and 18 wheelers who can't see you want to crush you!

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) You raised a very good point--your former car is "rare", not many made right, I do not know, do not follow "F"--initial investment is 27k with a selling loss of 25k, meaning you almost put into it what you paid for it--( did it really need all those items?? did you do the work / inspection yourself?) or 52k total of a purchase price of 27k included.

That is actually not bad--it IS a Ferrari................

No put 1k into a roller--finish it off with ,,,oh,,, about another 13k in parts and 200 hours at 55 an hour (11k) to make it yours--then sell it for 2k,( which seems to be the majority concensus here)

Which deal is better???? the 914 or the "F"???

This is actually a realistic example--just read many of the past threads on what people have put into these cars-----

[Aaron Cox]

i can sum it up in a sentence or two....

"Its a labor of love, and i love every minute of it" (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

yeah ive put a bunch of money into it....but can many of these new cars cath me in a corner? no way jose......


if you think these are in investment, walk away...... theyre for fun (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[jwalters]

QUOTE (Root_Werks @ Dec 27 2004, 01:52 PM)

I would say I am only into mine for around $7k now and wouldn't let it go for anything less than $10k. So if you are patient and have the 914club as a resource, you can make money off of 914's. Add in my labor and of course I would loose money, but I like thinking I helped keep another 914 on the road. That is why the one I got for my wife was also sort of a save. Had it sat out another couple of years, it would have been toast. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smash.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/welder.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sawzall-smiley.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) Yeah that is good---real good. When you gonna be finished with it??

cheers-- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[brant]

QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 02:54 PM)

No put 1k into a roller--finish it off with ,,,oh,,, about another 13k in parts and 200 hours at 55 an hour (11k) to make it yours--then sell it for 2k,( which seems to be the majority concensus here)

Josh,

You would be better off buying a 7K 914 that only needs 1K worth of detail work on it... then you could sell it for a full recoup of your money...


lets face it.
I love all of you guys, but most the cars out there that have had rust "fixed" are not worth nearly the same to me as a car that never needed any rust fixed.

There are a few places that I would trust to truly do the repair as good as factory.. else wise, the repair adds little or no value to the car from an investment perspective..

what am I saying... I don't know, I guess that a 1K car with need of rust repair is not work 13K to me.
There will always be another car out there (even if the value becomes 13K) that does not need the work done...

these cars are not rare.
and there are still out there.

take any car you want..
take a 911 or take a fiero..
It has to be a very nice starting car to bring back the money that is put into it...

I'm not trying to knock down your car.
I'm not rich either.
I have rust repaired cars, its just that I realistically know mine will never bring the kind of money I put into it.

If you want to do better on return, then buy a -6. The -6 is rare and appreciate because of it.

brant

[jwalters]

QUOTE (tracks914 @ Dec 27 2004, 01:45 PM)

I think, depending on your skill level, you should be able to get out of your 914 what you put into it parts only. Your labour should be a labour of love. I'm into my car for about $9500. It's appraised at $17,000. But I did my motor, body, interior (except for 4 panels in the seats) and paint all myself. To have paid someone to do this would have easily doubled the cost to do the car! If I sold it, I would like to think I could get $10-$12 K for the car but for the hours I have into it I would be making $1/hour. I didn't do it to lose money or to make money, just to enjoy it and hopefully break even. However, I am in the market for another car to do as my next project so I would like to see the value stay low for a while so I can pick up a good resto and a good parts car cheap. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) This is also a very good observation--parts cars will always be "cheap",,ones that need extensive work ( but are driving) will still also be "Cheap",,it is the ones that are in decent to very good shape and only getting 900 bucks--or,,,2k tops-----that is what is distressing--take it from me--I am all about a good deal--but want it to be from some schmo that went to jail, or keeled over while having sex with an 18 yr old...don't make my car cheap just because you want it to be...see what I mean

The teener is a great sports car--even porsche has recognized this officially----

Market exposure is one key--and there is a fella on here that is doing just that ( I am sworn to secrecy--do not even ask)----

I want to hear from anybody who does NOT want to see the potential resale of their car go up!?!

Who is the first???

[Eddie Williams]

The 944 is good fodder for this conversation as well. Bought mine for $3500. Needed belts, etc. So my choices were to put $2500 of labor into a $3500 car. Hmm... sold it for $3000. ANyway, it was the same thing... every ricer wants to race you, every GT boy wants to race you, every West-end Wanda in her Suburban wants to hit you, every redneck in their 4x4 want's to crush you. I almost got hit like 4-5 times, the car was Guards Red for goodness sake, so it's not like they couldn't see me!!Plus it was cutting into my 914 budget!! lol So sad, had to go!

[914werke]

QUOTE

Again I am going to say it again-----we should not have to invest so much time and money into a car when a '59 morris mini in pieces commands 4k.

So go buy Mini and stop you crabbin (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)
Jwalters your be'in stubborn and not Listening....
CARS in general and teeners specifically are not investments. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/bootyshake.gif)
Holler at the moon all you wish .. aint gonna make it so.

[jwalters]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) Here is another good one:

Say, somebody took up the endeavor to bring a bunch of teeners back to reality--in all different trims and what not---where you could actually "shop" for a teener ready to go. Kinda like all the type 1 outfits all around the country.

But you still like wrenching on them--maybe even build one yourself.

Would you buy one ready to go--as new as factory for a realistic price--yet keep wrenching on your very own..

Would you do it? Buy a fully rebuilt driver AND wrench on yours???

This could be a reality--and give the boxster some competition-

What do ya think???

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif)

[Root_Werks]

QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 02:07 PM)

QUOTE (Root_Werks @ Dec 27 2004, 01:52 PM) I would say I am only into mine for around $7k now and wouldn't let it go for anything less than $10k.  So if you are patient and have the 914club as a resource, you can make money off of 914's.  Add in my labor and of course I would loose money, but I like thinking I helped keep another 914 on the road.  That is why the one I got for my wife was also sort of a save.  Had it sat out another couple of years, it would have been toast.  :smash:  :welder:  :sawzall: (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) Yeah that is good---real good. When you gonna be finished with it?? cheers-- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

It has been a "done" car for a while now. I leave things to "tinker" on. Hey, I like to tinker. But there is even so little of that to do that I got another 914 to go through. Mine is a put key in and drive in any weather car. Rain, shine, snow, whatever. It is like a normal car. Buuuut, I don't becuase even though it is just a VW in most peoples mind, they can't seem to leave it alone. So most of the time it is parked in a garage out of harms (dumb-asses) way. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[eeyore]

QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 01:44 PM)

: Again I am going to say it again-----we should not have to invest so much time and money into a car when a '59 morris mini in pieces commands 4k.

Nobody is making you invest any money into a 914. A wise investment requires research. If you had a 50/50 split on 'joy of ownership'/'resale' then you should have looked into cars that are fun to drive, have a low parts-car value and a very high complete car value.

The underlying reason of this thread sounds like a grass is greener argument. "911 guys don't lose as much money as we do."

I was using the professional / experienced people as an example that the percieved 'gains' that are out there to be made on non-914s probably are perceptions only. Of the people I've met, only one person made money on ONE car, the remainder of people talk about losses. These are wise people who make plenty of money doing things inside and outside of car businesses, aside from collecting cars.

I think you're looking at supply and demand backwards. Prices won't drive up interest, interest will drive up prices. Unless the 914 becomes 908 rare which isn't likely. Stating that a 914 'deserves' higher values so your losses are better mitigated sounds more like (leftist) social entitlement than anything said about a market driven perception of a car's value.

A higher entry price doesn't make things any better, it just means you have more money locked up in a thing that is susceptible to the next drunk driver or hurricane that comes along. Furthermore, what's to keep the next person that comes along from saying the same thing, the expenditures will be the same, only entry price will have changed.

Having said that -- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[jwalters]

QUOTE (Eddie Williams @ Dec 27 2004, 02:18 PM)

The 944 is good fodder for this conversation as well. Bought mine for $3500. Needed belts, etc. So my choices were to put $2500 of labor into a $3500 car. Hmm... sold it for $3000.  ANyway, it was the same thing... every ricer wants to race you, every GT boy wants to race you, every West-end Wanda in her Suburban wants to hit you, every redneck in their 4x4 want's to crush you. I almost got hit like 4-5 times, the car was Guards Red for goodness sake, so it's not like they couldn't see me!!Plus it was cutting into my 914 budget!! lol So sad, had to go!

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif) So sorry to hear that--'bout the 944. I had a '86 one for awhile, till an errant rodent took out the entire front end at 4 in the mornin. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif) THAT was one sweet handling car!!!! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

good luck on the teener!!!

oh by the way, here in south florida is don't make no matter what you drive--all those last minute to work ass-holes will take anybody out!!!