I am sure I am going to get much banter, good, bad, and ugly for this post. But I just have to bring this up.

It is about all the talk I read about appropriate purchase prices of any teener.

It seems as though a great multitude of people are hell bent that a teener should never cost anybody more than maybe 2k.

Yet the parts for this car is easily on par with a full-on Porsche 911,928, etc. Particularly the engine--it is a vw unit developed ( in conjunction with Porsche??)--I could easily rebuild a flat six for the same if not much less than the cost of a higher power / reliable IV model.

We as a group are spending an absurd amount of time and greenbacks to get our cars to our personal level--yet the consensus I read is that after all this is done the cars are worth absolutely s*#t compared to the comparables. In my humble opinion this needs to stop, I see much foot shooting going on here. Do we as a group really want to invest all of the above and then by our own methods and verbalizations intentially keep the cars ...ahem..."CHEAP"?

Now do not get me wrong--I am all about "affordable" , but would rather see "affordable" vs. CHEAP and LESS than it could / should be.

I have an newer issue of "Excellance" and they are reporting the 914's are on the rise--We as a group have it within our power to change this trend for the worse if carefull thought is not applied to what is being said, sold, and bought.

I do not want to pump 10k into my car from rustoration, upgrades, only to only get maybe 2k for it if I was in the need.

I realize that right now I would be hard pressed to get what only I have in it, not to include my personal labor hours, which so far has exceeded 500 easily at a shop rate of $55.00 an hour---the OTHER Porsches do tho...............

I see too many nice cars for sale and people asking what they are worth and then saying that same nice car that is in good repair should only be " $900.00,,Tops" This is not going to cut it--we should be following the examples as set out in our newsstand advocate--"Excellance"

Just think about this for a moment before spouting off------I see much shooting of the feet in here--lets get smarter--and help the market adjust our beloved to the affordable level--not the out of reach level--We need parts that are of high quality, yet not priced exorbitantly--do you want to sell 10 at a 100.00, or 1000 at 50.00?? For every person that can afford a 10k type IV motor, there are possibly hundreds if not thousands who cannot. Just not dirt cheap to begin with an excellant example and then pour another thousands into it to make it our own and then get nothing for the fruits of our labor...........

It makes me sick to read about some poor schmo that bought a 2.5k rebuild cause that is what he could afford, and then have nothing but problems with it--then get berated about: " Told you so"..when the type 1 crowd can have 200+ hp for LESS THAN 3K----------I might just put a type 1 in mine and save 7k, or more--

Just as an example: For the time and money I am putting into my car--I could have easily purchased a late 70's-early 80's 911, rebuilt the motor, put good wheels and tires on it--and probably a minor interior / exterior upgrade--and easily sell it for more than I bought it / upgraded it for--------

I want to thank all of you that manufacture worthwhile products AND also price them accordingly---some others out there could possibly do some homework----We need to help the market as a whole with resale values----3000 members (almost) in a small community as the 914 is, is strong JEDI......yes, we are strong.........

If I have offended anybody I do not apologize--this is a forum for adult lively discussion--I would ask no less from anybody else. This post is NOT to any one person(s)--it is just a discussion.

But if things do not begin to change before I dump my talents and cash into this--I will go the 911 route


Point is: " I should not put 10k plus into my car and then expect to get for it what I am reading in here!, which is crap.........."

I'm not trying to start a flame war either... but I don't actually agree with the statement about building a flat 4 for the same price as a flat 6...

I'm not saying that its not possible.. but In my experience:
the last 2 flat4 race motors I had were 6k each...
and if I were to build a full flat 6 race motor I think it would run 8-10K... (and I know people with 20K into them)

brant

QUOTE (brant @ Dec 27 2004, 11:39 AM)

I'm not trying to start a flame war either... but I don't actually agree with the statement about building a flat 4 for the same price as a flat 6... I'm not saying that its not possible.. but In my experience: the last 2 flat4 race motors I had were 6k each... and if I were to build a full flat 6 race motor I think it would run 8-10K... (and I know people with 20K into them) brant

I noticed your caveat: RACE motor---try to think: Daily driver motor.

Yes, you are correct if going the race route---I am talking about a rebuild only--a good one tho--but not race.

My type IV will cost me more for 180 hp than a 180 hp 911 stocker----this is what I mean..

Thanks for the input--and have a red stripe on me ( or non-alcoholic)

QUOTE

It seems as though a great multitude of people are hell bent that a teener should never cost anybody more than maybe 2k.

always pisses me off. i wouldn't sell my car for anything under $20k.
don't care what other people *think* it is worth ...

Andy

but I duth protest:

a rebuild -6 with 180hp will cost more than a rebuilt -4 with 180hp....

If you were buying a 3.0/6 with 180hp and NOT factoring in the rebuild cost then yes somewhat true....

Of course you can buy a NON rebuilt big -4 too and compare used prices to used prices...

but overall I agree with your thread.. I'm just saying that a -6 motor and the cost to convert are often under-estimated.... and New to New or used to used would be the aples to oranges arguement.

brant

oh no man--converting my teener to six is not what I meant----like, on the website, Motorcar investments, which is where my supervisor bought his 912--he can get 911's, (SC models) for 8-12k all day--and I am talking very good examples--put another 5k in, with all I talked about, and you can easily get what you put into it.

I used to work at a german shop--and we could rebuild slightly modified sixes--( as long as the cylinders are good) easily for 3k,,,tops.

I should have inserted this info into the thread, I could see how it would be misleading..........cheers

Shortly ago I figured up what I will have in my teener--close to 18k, to include personal labor hours.

If I was not sooo in love with the teener, and went the 911 sc route, I would have an excellant example car to begin with, with upgrades--for about 14-17k when all is said and done, to include personal labor hours.

oh well...........guess I'll have another beer

The flaw in your argument is If your buying then fixing your car as an investment your wasting your time
Buy it for what you think is fair fix it to your level of satisfaction and drive it...for the sheer enjoyment of the experiance.
Then you wont be dissapointed.

I know what you mean about return on investment with the 914's. That is basically why my street car is virtually stock. If I ever sell it, I wouldn't even be able to recoup the cost of restoration from 13 years ago. I have driven it though. I bet I could easily sell it for the same money I paid for it.

When I re-did that car I swore it was the last 914 I would do, but here I am re-doing a couple more.....

I have fun doing the work (maybe not all the time) and I miss doing it when I am done....

It is a hobby.

Nuff said...

I don't know many people that make money fixing up their old cars.

They are money pits but we do it because it is our passion.

Regarding the 911's. Man you can spend upwards of $50,000 on any one of them. There was an article in excellence a while ago about 2 911 SC's that were fixed up and each owner spent about that much.

And a nice teener is easily worth between $5,000 and $10,000

So carry on everbody and don't add up your receipts.

I agree with jwalters....I believe our cars are gaining in value and respect in the porsche community. I've probably got about 10k in mine (and that is not including my time value)...and I'd expect to get alot more then 2k for mine. For example, there was a post on here today asking about a value for a 914 on ebay..not running but repainted...body looked clean..etc....immediately it's down to only worth 900 bucks ...come on now that is bizarre...my 95 jeep was just totalled...not even driveable and I could buy it back for 1600...only thing useable in my jeep was the interior and high mileage engine.

Point is, the more we keep the value of these cars down the more likely we are hurting not only our own investments but the real/perceived value of our cars. I'm not into this for making money nor even recouping my investment (it's a fun thing for me)...but I do want to see the value of our cars continue to rise. Rising values will tell the community to keep investing in parts/enhancements and support. All things that go away when a car has no real perceived value!

QUOTE (synthesisdv @ Dec 27 2004, 12:28 PM)

So carry on everbody and don't add up your receipts.

Yeah, I keep those out of sight!

I think that for the normal individual, there is very little money to be made off any one car, period. You’ll NEVER get your time or money investment back on a car unless you got an absolutely great deal on the car being used as a base, and even then they’re usually more curse than blessing. I think the only money to be made on cars is as a dealer or professional restorer.

Thanks to my former boss (who is now on a 356 bender – a coupe, a speedster, and restoring an SC and a Carrera 2) I’ve been privileged to hang around with big(ger) money Porsche types. One person said he only made money on ONE car in his twenty of years buying, selling and dealing with collectible cars -- 910s, 911s, Abarths, etc.

You also need to think of who you’re competing with and who you are selling to. Unless your $12+5k improved SC is significantly better, and appeals to just the right person (who has to have it now), you’ve moved the car into the next price bracket. Your car is working at the high end of its price bracket, and now has to deal with other (better?) cars at the low end of the next price bracket. Example: You have a beautiful ’71 1.7 tailshifter for $4K with non-stock options, and somebody is selling a worn, but good condition ’73 2.0 sideshifter for $5k. I’d be going for the ‘73.

You can complain about the wine-and-cheese-ers but they are the ones that have the scratch to throw $20k at a car that can sit in a garage and look pretty most of the time. They are also willing to put up with the foibles and quirks of a part-time driver car that is ‘correct’ rather than have the 'better' later-model that isn’t correct, no matter how much ‘nicer’ the seller thinks it is.

I think that expecting 'good' resale any car that isn't restored to showroom stock is not wise. Personal preference varies dramatically, and the only 'real' standard that would conform to the widest audience is showroom stock. The wider the audience, the greater likelihood that somebody will pay top dollar for your car.

There problem is that nobody values your time and choices like you do. A car is a set of compromises and the set you’ve chosen will most likely not match the set of compromises the next person is willing to accept. I don’t want a car that somebody else has worked on, because I get the impression that there is a bunch of ‘un-work’ to be done to reverse the compromises the previous owner found accept get the car to a desirable base.

One thing I see a bad in rising values is there is less money for aftermarket parts. The cheaper the car, the more cash we as a community have to squander on Konis, roller suspension bushings and whatnot. Those things make 914s better. Inflated values do nothing to make the car better or improve the bottom lines of the entrepreneurs.

QUOTE (synthesisdv @ Dec 27 2004, 12:28 PM)

I don't know many people that make money fixing up their old cars. They are money pits but we do it because it is our passion. Regarding the 911's. Man you can spend upwards of $50,000 on any one of them. There was an article in excellence a while ago about 2 911 SC's that were fixed up and each owner spent about that much. And a nice teener is easily worth between $5,000 and $10,000 So carry on everbody and don't add up your receipts.

hehe--thats good--just throw away your receipts--hehe-----

There is no reason what-so-ever that the teener could not be worth much more than what is general right now-----And when people say no-one has made money on a car---are you sure??? That is done every day--hell a morris mini cooper has more value than our cars right now---what is that saying?????

There is no reason why our passion could not reap the benifits it deserves---except we intentionally keep our own prices down and pay out of the ass for most parts. Who is getting rich here??? Certainly not us--cause we intentionally buy and resale soooo cheap, that even a '73 super beetle commands more market price of an average of 7k plus for a so-so car.
This is exactly what I mean. I am glad there is sooo many people out there with sooo much money to burn to not even think of the ramifications of the teener.

Oh well, just a rant I guess---until more people smarten up and see these cars for their true value---we will all keep pissing up that rope.

Beer for everyone now!!!!

ps. Syn, this was not directed to you--I just got a kick out of your quote..

QUOTE (jim912928 @ Dec 27 2004, 12:33 PM)

I agree with jwalters....I believe our cars are gaining in value and respect in the porsche community. I've probably got about 10k in mine (and that is not including my time value)...and I'd expect to get alot more then 2k for mine. For example, there was a post on here today asking about a value for a 914 on ebay..not running but repainted...body looked clean..etc....immediately it's down to only worth 900 bucks ...come on now that is bizarre...my 95 jeep was just totalled...not even driveable and I could buy it back for 1600...only thing useable in my jeep was the interior and high mileage engine. Point is, the more we keep the value of these cars down the more likely we are hurting not only our own investments but the real/perceived value of our cars. I'm not into this for making money nor even recouping my investment (it's a fun thing for me)...but I do want to see the value of our cars continue to rise. Rising values will tell the community to keep investing in parts/enhancements and support. All things that go away when a car has no real perceived value!

Dude, that was awsome!!I couldn't have said it better---what a minute...I guess I didn't..

Thank you so much for saying this--it is true---

This is the whole reason why I ceased so much 914 development engine wise...

Basically the 914 group won't spend more than what it takes to do a job "Bare bones"

The beetle following is much different and so is the 356 and 914 market.

The 914 is gaining popularity and recognition everyday, BUT thats not gonna help guys like me, that end up helping make the cars even better unless people start opening their wallets.

Hey cloudbuster- I was not talking about doing it for a living---I was talking about how an arguably better car, with better resale, or holding power, can in the long run be cheaper than what we are doing to ours. And resale much better...............

Try to focus on NOT doing a full-on rebuild with the other porsches( as most of them do not need it anyway), as most DO with the teener ( which SHOULD command a very good price, even if not done to concours) Those people putting 50k into a very good to start 911 are porsche fanatics who have much money to burn--that is not what I am talking about...Jim912928 hit the target on the head with this one.

I am just comparing how one could do very well with about 16k investment in another porsche model and us putting arguably much more into ours and then get nothing for it----

That is what has got my goat.

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Dec 27 2004, 12:54 PM)

This is the whole reason why I ceased so much 914 development engine wise... Basically the 914 group won't spend more than what it takes to do a job "Bare bones" The beetle following is much different and so is the 356 and 914 market. The 914 is gaining popularity and recognition everyday, BUT thats not gonna help guys like me, that end up helping make the cars even better unless people start opening their wallets.

True, very true--and then when they do open their wallets and then have to sell the car they put so much time and money into---HOLD YOUR GROUND AND GET YOUR JUST REWARDS!!!!!

Cloudbuster--I would like to see you go to the nearest posche, audi, bmw, mercedes..etc shop and tell them what you just said in that post----How much you want to bet they would all tell you to go piss up a rope?????

bets,,huh, bets??????

Have another beer man--you need it....

Sorry bud. I think you are kiddin' yourself if you think that changing the way we talk about our cars is going to have a meaningful impact on their values either way. We here collectively make up probably less than 1/10 0f 1% of folks who would be in the market for a 914. We can all decide amongst ourselves that as of today a decent 914 is worth no less than $5000. The net effect would be the same as deciding that the emperor's new clothes look great. If the market thinks it ain't true, then it just ain't.

The value of 914's will increase as the become harder to find in good shape, and those that do exist are cars that car guys would respect. I spend money on my teeners because I love them and I want them to be as fun and dependable as possible. If I was interested in investment values, I would not be spending the money on this or any other sports car.

What the heck are you guys talking about??? If the curent price dictated by the market for a descent teener runs 2 to5 k let just keep this secret to ourselves and buy as many of the damn things as our wife will allow... We have two in the family now... and I would like to buy another one in the next year... if finances don't go in the toilet...
Lets buy em up market price will adjust accordingly, and WE will be the winners!!!

Sold my 308 Ferrari this summer. Bought a '76 914.

For the price of a good Raby motor for our 914's, you could replace the timming belts/gears on my 308. ($4-6k depending on parts/labor)

For the price of a standard economy 2.0 rebuild you could buy the distributor caps and rotors (dual) for my 308. ($500 ea for caps, $130 ea rotors)

For a good used 2.0 -3.0 911 motor you could buy my windshield. Add a 308 clutch/flywheel job and you could do an entire 6 conversion.....($6k +...)

Price is all relevant.....it just depends on what it's worth to you. Nothing wrong with spending thousands on a 914 if that's what you want, you will never recoupe your investment, but for me spending money on my 914 is for my pleasure, not investment.

I will say this though: NEVER but an "F" car.......stick with the "P" cars.....

to an extent--You did not mention what you got for your 308---vs. what you paid for it--we would all like to know--and be truthful about it...........

Yeah, I agree with what chris said.

I sold an SC to spend more money on a 914.
If you think an SC at 14K is a better car then fine


also realize that some person out there will make the argument about their dodge neon being better than a 914 or a 911...

(heck an SRT neon will dust them both on the street and on the track for only 18K)

but I don't like neon's...
I like 914's (I like 911's too but not as much as 914's)

The point is that all car guys sink double the money into their cars as they could get out of them.. 911 guys sink a ton of money into their cars too.. Look at the original selling price of a car. In their day a 914 was 5k and a 911 was 7-8K. There are/were a lot of 914's made, so its a tough argument to say that they are so rare that they should out valube a 911.

I agree with the market value arguments.
If you want 914's to be worth 20K then let me sell mine to you and that way you and I can write a letter to bruce anderson and show the world that this is the correct value...

heck maybe I can sell you 2 of them for 40K...

brant

QUOTE (aircooledboy @ Dec 27 2004, 01:12 PM)

I spend money on my teeners because I love them and I want them to be as fun and dependable as possible. If I was interested in investment values, I would not be spending the money on this or any other sports car.

Amen, bro!
I'm in it for the grin factor.

Got a really nice 914 2.0 for $5800. Dumped in another 2 grand. Nobody grins louder than me, and that's the real value. IMHO I'll recoup the $$ investment in my kids and dogs before I break even on the 914.

QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 01:20 PM)

to an extent--You did not mention what you got for your 308---vs. what you paid for it--we would all like to know--and be truthful about it...........

Paid 27K for car in June 3 years ago. Took it to Concours Cars in Colorado Springs for look-over.

It needed timing gears, clutch, flywheel, routing tunning and other misc. items, so by July I had another $18k invested.

Drove it to Las Vegas that Sept, rear wheel bearing went bad, so did them when I got back (exact same as 911 so no biggie). Throw in another $600 for bad fuse boxes and thermo-time switch.

Drove it all around Colorado and New Mexico for the next 2 years, when a timing cover bearing went bad - $2.5k to fix, said screw it and E-bayed -unfixed- it for $18k.

Net loss: $25K +/- a few. Had to decide on a retirement consisting of cat food and living in my car, or cutting my losses and moving on!

Labor was the killer, if I had had a better place to work on it total investment would have been about $9-11k less and I would still be driving it.

That describes the money end of F cars; some people just don't like expensive cars, and mine was hit by vandals 3 times, once resulting in $1k damage. You can't just park it and leave it, so a break-down in the middle of nowhere is a disaster. There is no such thing as a quick stop for gas or at the 7-11, crowds appear out of nowhere. Every 17 y.o. zit faced kid with a Ricer wants to race you, rednecks in their 15' high pickup trucks want to race you, and 18 wheelers who can't see you want to crush you!

I t is always so interesting how so many people will get the facts sooo wrong...kinda like how suzy and bobby made out, then by the time it got passed around suzy was pregnant and bobby was dead from her father.

Who said anything about the 914 eclipsing the 911???

I see 911's heavily modified all day long get the money asked by the owners---the 914 crowd does the same thing, they get what they ask...ever hear the term;" you get what you ask for?"...point here is ASKING PRICE.

yes, maybe the 911 guy is not getting all he has into it---but then again, I see it happen that he does, and some even make money.

Again I am going to say it again-----we should not have to invest so much time and money into a car when a '59 morris mini in pieces commands 4k.

Am I saying get out of it what we put into it?? NO, but somehow this thread has moved to that leftest wing party.

Great that you love your car and enjoy putting thousands into it with no possible hope of any worthwhile return, you obviously are stinking rich, good for you, I and thousands like me are not, you are just one in the crowd--of thousands who would like to see SOME return in the investment.

This will not happen until attitudes change--and yes, the market could explode on these cars---it has happened with many, many others, but again I am referring to "Affordable" with respect to the thousands we are investing into them--don't say it does not happen--you see it every time you pick up a copy of excellance. Why would anybody, even for the pure enjoyment, allow something like this to occur--this is the basis of capitalism and our society--only people with all the money in the world do not care what happens...or do they...how did they get so rich in the first place...wise investments,,,helping the market expand,,

I think, depending on your skill level, you should be able to get out of your 914 what you put into it parts only. Your labour should be a labour of love.
I'm into my car for about $9500. It's appraised at $17,000. But I did my motor, body, interior (except for 4 panels in the seats) and paint all myself. To have paid someone to do this would have easily doubled the cost to do the car! If I sold it, I would like to think I could get $10-$12 K for the car but for the hours I have into it I would be making $1/hour. I didn't do it to lose money or to make money, just to enjoy it and hopefully break even.
However, I am in the market for another car to do as my next project so I would like to see the value stay low for a while so I can pick up a good resto and a good parts car cheap.

I would say I am only into mine for around $7k now and wouldn't let it go for anything less than $10k. So if you are patient and have the 914club as a resource, you can make money off of 914's. Add in my labor and of course I would loose money, but I like thinking I helped keep another 914 on the road. That is why the one I got for my wife was also sort of a save. Had it sat out another couple of years, it would have been toast.

QUOTE (MarkG @ Dec 27 2004, 01:39 PM)

QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 01:20 PM)    to an extent--You did not mention what you got for your 308---vs. what you paid for it--we would all like to know--and be truthful about it........... Paid 27K for car in June 3 years ago. Took it to Concours Cars in Colorado Springs for look-over. It needed timing gears, clutch, flywheel, routing tunning and other misc. items, so by July I had another $18k invested. Drove it to Las Vegas that Sept, rear wheel bearing went bad, so did them when I got back (exact same as 911 so no biggie). Throw in another $600 for bad fuse boxes and thermo-time switch. Drove it all around Colorado and New Mexico for the next 2 years, when a timing cover bearing went bad - $2.5k to fix, said screw it and E-bayed -unfixed- it for $18k. Net loss: $25K +/- a few. Had to decide on a retirement consisting of cat food and living in my car, or cutting my losses and moving on! Labor was the killer, if I had had a better place to work on it total investment would have been about $9-11k less and I would still be driving it. That describes the money end of F cars; some people just don't like expensive cars, and mine was hit by vandals 3 times, once resulting in $1k damage. You can't just park it and leave it, so a break-down in the middle of nowhere is a disaster. There is no such thing as a quick stop for gas or at the 7-11, crowds appear out of nowhere. Every 17 y.o. zit faced kid with a Ricer wants to race you, rednecks in their 15' high pickup trucks want to race you, and 18 wheelers who can't see you want to crush you!

You raised a very good point--your former car is "rare", not many made right, I do not know, do not follow "F"--initial investment is 27k with a selling loss of 25k, meaning you almost put into it what you paid for it--( did it really need all those items?? did you do the work / inspection yourself?) or 52k total of a purchase price of 27k included.

That is actually not bad--it IS a Ferrari................

No put 1k into a roller--finish it off with ,,,oh,,, about another 13k in parts and 200 hours at 55 an hour (11k) to make it yours--then sell it for 2k,( which seems to be the majority concensus here)

Which deal is better???? the 914 or the "F"???

This is actually a realistic example--just read many of the past threads on what people have put into these cars-----

i can sum it up in a sentence or two....

"Its a labor of love, and i love every minute of it"

yeah ive put a bunch of money into it....but can many of these new cars cath me in a corner? no way jose......


if you think these are in investment, walk away...... theyre for fun

QUOTE (Root_Werks @ Dec 27 2004, 01:52 PM)

I would say I am only into mine for around $7k now and wouldn't let it go for anything less than $10k. So if you are patient and have the 914club as a resource, you can make money off of 914's. Add in my labor and of course I would loose money, but I like thinking I helped keep another 914 on the road. That is why the one I got for my wife was also sort of a save. Had it sat out another couple of years, it would have been toast.

Yeah that is good---real good. When you gonna be finished with it??

cheers--

QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 02:54 PM)

No put 1k into a roller--finish it off with ,,,oh,,, about another 13k in parts and 200 hours at 55 an hour (11k) to make it yours--then sell it for 2k,( which seems to be the majority concensus here)

Josh,

You would be better off buying a 7K 914 that only needs 1K worth of detail work on it... then you could sell it for a full recoup of your money...


lets face it.
I love all of you guys, but most the cars out there that have had rust "fixed" are not worth nearly the same to me as a car that never needed any rust fixed.

There are a few places that I would trust to truly do the repair as good as factory.. else wise, the repair adds little or no value to the car from an investment perspective..

what am I saying... I don't know, I guess that a 1K car with need of rust repair is not work 13K to me.
There will always be another car out there (even if the value becomes 13K) that does not need the work done...

these cars are not rare.
and there are still out there.

take any car you want..
take a 911 or take a fiero..
It has to be a very nice starting car to bring back the money that is put into it...

I'm not trying to knock down your car.
I'm not rich either.
I have rust repaired cars, its just that I realistically know mine will never bring the kind of money I put into it.

If you want to do better on return, then buy a -6. The -6 is rare and appreciate because of it.

brant

QUOTE (tracks914 @ Dec 27 2004, 01:45 PM)

I think, depending on your skill level, you should be able to get out of your 914 what you put into it parts only. Your labour should be a labour of love. I'm into my car for about $9500. It's appraised at $17,000. But I did my motor, body, interior (except for 4 panels in the seats) and paint all myself. To have paid someone to do this would have easily doubled the cost to do the car! If I sold it, I would like to think I could get $10-$12 K for the car but for the hours I have into it I would be making $1/hour. I didn't do it to lose money or to make money, just to enjoy it and hopefully break even. However, I am in the market for another car to do as my next project so I would like to see the value stay low for a while so I can pick up a good resto and a good parts car cheap.

This is also a very good observation--parts cars will always be "cheap",,ones that need extensive work ( but are driving) will still also be "Cheap",,it is the ones that are in decent to very good shape and only getting 900 bucks--or,,,2k tops-----that is what is distressing--take it from me--I am all about a good deal--but want it to be from some schmo that went to jail, or keeled over while having sex with an 18 yr old...don't make my car cheap just because you want it to be...see what I mean

The teener is a great sports car--even porsche has recognized this officially----

Market exposure is one key--and there is a fella on here that is doing just that ( I am sworn to secrecy--do not even ask)----

I want to hear from anybody who does NOT want to see the potential resale of their car go up!?!

Who is the first???

The 944 is good fodder for this conversation as well. Bought mine for $3500. Needed belts, etc. So my choices were to put $2500 of labor into a $3500 car. Hmm... sold it for $3000. ANyway, it was the same thing... every ricer wants to race you, every GT boy wants to race you, every West-end Wanda in her Suburban wants to hit you, every redneck in their 4x4 want's to crush you. I almost got hit like 4-5 times, the car was Guards Red for goodness sake, so it's not like they couldn't see me!!Plus it was cutting into my 914 budget!! lol So sad, had to go!

QUOTE

Again I am going to say it again-----we should not have to invest so much time and money into a car when a '59 morris mini in pieces commands 4k.

So go buy Mini and stop you crabbin
Jwalters your be'in stubborn and not Listening....
CARS in general and teeners specifically are not investments.
Holler at the moon all you wish .. aint gonna make it so.

Here is another good one:

Say, somebody took up the endeavor to bring a bunch of teeners back to reality--in all different trims and what not---where you could actually "shop" for a teener ready to go. Kinda like all the type 1 outfits all around the country.

But you still like wrenching on them--maybe even build one yourself.

Would you buy one ready to go--as new as factory for a realistic price--yet keep wrenching on your very own..

Would you do it? Buy a fully rebuilt driver AND wrench on yours???

This could be a reality--and give the boxster some competition-

What do ya think???

QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 02:07 PM)

QUOTE (Root_Werks @ Dec 27 2004, 01:52 PM) I would say I am only into mine for around $7k now and wouldn't let it go for anything less than $10k.  So if you are patient and have the 914club as a resource, you can make money off of 914's.  Add in my labor and of course I would loose money, but I like thinking I helped keep another 914 on the road.  That is why the one I got for my wife was also sort of a save.  Had it sat out another couple of years, it would have been toast.  :smash:  :welder:  :sawzall: Yeah that is good---real good. When you gonna be finished with it?? cheers--

It has been a "done" car for a while now. I leave things to "tinker" on. Hey, I like to tinker. But there is even so little of that to do that I got another 914 to go through. Mine is a put key in and drive in any weather car. Rain, shine, snow, whatever. It is like a normal car. Buuuut, I don't becuase even though it is just a VW in most peoples mind, they can't seem to leave it alone. So most of the time it is parked in a garage out of harms (dumb-asses) way.

QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 01:44 PM)

: Again I am going to say it again-----we should not have to invest so much time and money into a car when a '59 morris mini in pieces commands 4k.

Nobody is making you invest any money into a 914. A wise investment requires research. If you had a 50/50 split on 'joy of ownership'/'resale' then you should have looked into cars that are fun to drive, have a low parts-car value and a very high complete car value.

The underlying reason of this thread sounds like a grass is greener argument. "911 guys don't lose as much money as we do."

I was using the professional / experienced people as an example that the percieved 'gains' that are out there to be made on non-914s probably are perceptions only. Of the people I've met, only one person made money on ONE car, the remainder of people talk about losses. These are wise people who make plenty of money doing things inside and outside of car businesses, aside from collecting cars.

I think you're looking at supply and demand backwards. Prices won't drive up interest, interest will drive up prices. Unless the 914 becomes 908 rare which isn't likely. Stating that a 914 'deserves' higher values so your losses are better mitigated sounds more like (leftist) social entitlement than anything said about a market driven perception of a car's value.

A higher entry price doesn't make things any better, it just means you have more money locked up in a thing that is susceptible to the next drunk driver or hurricane that comes along. Furthermore, what's to keep the next person that comes along from saying the same thing, the expenditures will be the same, only entry price will have changed.

Having said that --

QUOTE (Eddie Williams @ Dec 27 2004, 02:18 PM)

The 944 is good fodder for this conversation as well. Bought mine for $3500. Needed belts, etc. So my choices were to put $2500 of labor into a $3500 car. Hmm... sold it for $3000.  ANyway, it was the same thing... every ricer wants to race you, every GT boy wants to race you, every West-end Wanda in her Suburban wants to hit you, every redneck in their 4x4 want's to crush you. I almost got hit like 4-5 times, the car was Guards Red for goodness sake, so it's not like they couldn't see me!!Plus it was cutting into my 914 budget!! lol So sad, had to go!

So sorry to hear that--'bout the 944. I had a '86 one for awhile, till an errant rodent took out the entire front end at 4 in the mornin. THAT was one sweet handling car!!!!

good luck on the teener!!!

oh by the way, here in south florida is don't make no matter what you drive--all those last minute to work ass-holes will take anybody out!!!

QUOTE (rdauenhauer @ Dec 27 2004, 02:25 PM)

QUOTE Again I am going to say it again-----we should not have to invest so much time and money into a car when a '59 morris mini in pieces commands 4k. So go buy Mini and stop you crabbin Jwalters your be'in stubborn and not Listening.... CARS in general and teeners specifically are not investments. Holler at the moon all you wish .. aint gonna make it so.

mini is too small for my big ass--- plus I can't afford a 4k in pieces....

QUOTE (Cloudbuster @ Dec 27 2004, 02:31 PM)

QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 01:44 PM) : Again I am going to say it again-----we should not have to invest so much time and money into a car when a '59 morris mini in pieces commands 4k. Nobody is making you invest any money into a 914. A wise investment requires research. If you had a 50/50 split on 'joy of ownership'/'resale' then you should have looked into cars that are fun to drive, have a low parts-car value and a very high complete car value. The underlying reason of this thread sounds like a grass is greener argument. "911 guys don't lose as much money as we do." I was using the professional / experienced people as an example that the percieved 'gains' that are out there to be made on non-914s probably are perceptions only. Of the people I've met, only one person made money on ONE car, the remainder of people talk about losses. These are wise people who make plenty of money doing things inside and outside of car businesses, aside from collecting cars. I think you're looking at supply and demand backwards. Prices won't drive up interest, interest will drive up prices. Unless the 914 becomes 908 rare which isn't likely. Stating that a 914 'deserves' higher values so your losses are better mitigated sounds more like (leftist) social entitlement than anything said about a market driven perception of a car's value. A higher entry price doesn't make things any better, it just means you have more money locked up in a thing that is susceptible to the next drunk driver or hurricane that comes along. Furthermore, what's to keep the next person that comes along from saying the same thing, the expenditures will be the same, only entry price will have changed. Having said that --

Yeah---no really--do you really think a teener has to become as rare as a 908 to be worth anything????

Again it is not about investing into a car(teener) to make money on it---it is about investing in a car so you do not lose soooo damn much because most people who already have one really gives a shit about the resale values----

That is what I am seeing on this board all too often and it is distressing---almost 3k members is strong JEDI--this many people in the 914 community could be an adverse influence if not carefull

With THAT said--

hey cloudbuster--you're one of those republicans ain't you....

QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 02:35 PM)

QUOTE (rdauenhauer @ Dec 27 2004, 02:25 PM) QUOTE Again I am going to say it again-----we should not have to invest so much time and money into a car when a '59 morris mini in pieces commands 4k. So go buy Mini and stop you crabbin Jwalters your be'in stubborn and not Listening.... CARS in general and teeners specifically are not investments. Holler at the moon all you wish .. aint gonna make it so. mini is too small for my big ass--- plus I can't afford a 4k in pieces....

I used to own a 1979 corvette, bought it for 5k in 1992---they are sellin for over 14k now--go figure

Should have kept that beastie--but hey--if I did, now I would not be a teener fanatic!!!

1. PERCEPTION: The days of the 914 being, "the poor mans porsche" are drawing to a close. With these cars being around thirty years old the supply of good cars is slowly disappearing. Repairing and maintaining these cars is becoming more expensive. The 914 will start to be seen as a premium classic car by more people over time.

2. PERFORMANCE: Historically the classic cars that retain their values are the cars that can continue to perform well enough to keep up with modern traffic. This is also why the biggest topics of discussion on this forum concern larger TYPE IVs, six conversions, and other non-porsche engined solutions. The 914 has been raced continually since new so there are a lot of performance enhancements out there to be had.

3. HERITAGE: New audiences are discovering these classic Porsches every day. The mid-engined, air-cooled, two-seater, targa topped sports car with two trunks is unique enough to be appealing some thirty years on. Compared to the newer water cooled Boxsters the 914 can deliver a pure sports car experience in a small, razor sharp, race car like package. The 914 looks like no other car and has the Porsche pedigree and a list of race wins as good as any.

4. SUPPORT: More vendors offering products for 914s. More Porsche restoration and performance shops. More resources like this forum and others. It has never been easier for someone to serice a 914, find parts & services for a 914, or see a 914 project through to completion. The value of these vendors, shops, and clubs is paramount to the thriving 914 marketplace.

The 914 is slowly becoming more rare, has modern performance (or can be made to have modern performance), has a family heritage that includes racing and nostalgia for the Porsche brand, and has support by clubs, vendors, and shops. Add to this the unique features of the 914 and it becomes clear why this car will continue to attract a more diverse crowd of owners.

All of the above will have an effect on the values of 914s but the number one factor will be desire. How bad does some one desire one of these cars? If someone want's something enough they can, and will justify any and all cost. Do they desire a fast 914-6, a wild 914-8, a 100% stock 914, a concours car? This random desire is what we can not really account for.

We can speculate the value of a 914 all day. If no one desires a 914 then it's value is actually zero, if everyone suddendly had to have one the values would increase in relation to availability (think Harley Davidson where dealers usually charge a premium OVER MSRP on every unit sold). When Excellenece runs a feature article on the 914 it's desireability is slight increased. When the club holds an event like WCC and it is covered by a magazine then the lust factor goes up some more. Little by little, baby steps, the 914 is becoming more desireable. This trend may continue or not, right now enough enough people desire 914s to have driven the market values up a bit.

Saying we want prices to be higher or lower is meaningless when the demand is low it is a buyer's market as the demand increases so will price. Waiting for the supply side to dwindle can work. But if you plan on sitting n a car for 20-30 years it will also cost to keep the car in prime condition over that same amount of time so there is still a risk there. I think all of us that own 914s are at the wim of desire and demand.

BUT, what I HOPE everyone realizes is the big time editor of "Excellance"is also a club member-- and he is listening to us..........

Hey, big time editor for excellance--please don't reduce the values of our cars from reading this thread--please, please, please,

You are awesome--so very awesome

How about a case of your favorite brew?????????

The market price for a car is decided by people like us, not just newbies to classic car ownership. When we hold our cars to a higher level, then that will be the deciding factor of how much it is really going to command on the selling block. I have to admit that I have restored hundreds upon hundreds of America classic cars for myself and other clients. I realized early in the game that I would loose cash on some and gain some on others. I'm sure the owners found this out also. Yes the 914 due to
"owner" consensus are being under valued. I have 16k in mine and I may or may not get 2/3rd's of my cash back if sold, labor doesn't even come into the equation at this point. That was my love and stubborness coming into play "hate to have a car beat me".

We can bring up the value and status of these cars up "IF" we stick together as a solid owners foundation. The best way to find out is not take less than the car is worth. Don't get a offer that is exceptable?... Keep the sucker. Yes I'm suggesting that you personally and with honesty, inflate your cars value a wee bit. You have all this cash and sweat invested so protect it. The people who sell new or NOS parts for teeners are pulling this trick everyday. Don't believe me? Look at all those receipts you all have, seems like someone is makng their money and who is setting those prices?...they are. You have the car boys and girls! With all those highly inflated car parts ! And they are not worth any less because they are installed on the car. If so then who says they are now worth less?! What I'm trying to get at is....
That prices of "things" are not just controlled by supply and demand. So don't fall for that shit. These fine autos that we have enslaved ourselves to are worth as much as we are willing to let them go for, not necessarly what someone is willing to offer us for them. We all know buyers try to whittle us down, so don't play... stick to your guns. All I ever hear is how these little cars spank the shit out of 911s in the curves on the track, that says something folks. So if these cars can do that, why are people denying them their rightful place and net worth? Beats me.... I must be stupid for loving them then. I'll be damned that I give mine up for cheap on someones "opinion".

I'm still in the stage that my cherry hasn't been popped yet by years with these cars and I know that, but I know cars and usually the problem is an anxious seller with cash flow problems.

So I too, cast my lot in with the consensus that we need to talk our cars up in all areas not down. Piss on negative skuttlebutt .

nuff said......

QUOTE (Hi_Fi_Guy @ Dec 27 2004, 03:05 PM)

1. PERCEPTION: The days of the 914 being, "the poor mans porsche" are drawing to a close. With these cars being around thirty years old the supply of good cars is slowly disappearing. Repairing and maintaining these cars is becoming more expensive. The 914 will start to be seen as a premium classic car by more people over time. 2. PERFORMANCE: Historically the classic cars that retain their values are the cars that can continue to perform well enough to keep up with modern traffic. This is also why the biggest topics of discussion on this forum concern larger TYPE IVs, six conversions, and other non-porsche engined solutions. The 914 has been raced continually since new so there are a lot of performance enhancements out there to be had. 3. HERITAGE: New audiences are discovering these classic Porsches every day. The mid-engined, air-cooled, two-seater, targa topped sports car with two trunks is unique enough to be appealing some thirty years on. Compared to the newer water cooled Boxsters the 914 can deliver a pure sports car experience in a small, razor sharp, race car like package. The 914 looks like no other car and has the Porsche pedigree and a list of race wins as good as any. 4. SUPPORT: More vendors offering products for 914s. More Porsche restoration and performance shops. More resources like this forum and others. It has never been easier for someone to serice a 914, find parts & services for a 914, or see a 914 project through to completion. The value of these vendors, shops, and clubs is paramount to the thriving 914 marketplace. The 914 is slowly becoming more rare, has modern performance (or can be made to have modern performance), has a family heritage that includes racing and nostalgia for the Porsche brand, and has support by clubs, vendors, and shops. Add to this the unique features of the 914 and it becomes clear why this car will continue to attract a more diverse crowd of owners. All of the above will have an effect on the values of 914s but the number one factor will be desire. How bad does some one desire one of these cars? If someone want's something enough they can, and will justify any and all cost. Do they desire a fast 914-6, a wild 914-8, a 100% stock 914, a concours car? This random desire is what we can not really account for. We can speculate the value of a 914 all day. If no one desires a 914 then it's value is actually zero, if everyone suddendly had to have one the values would increase in relation to availability (think Harley Davidson where dealers usually charge a premium OVER MSRP on every unit sold). When Excellenece runs a feature article on the 914 it's desireability is slight increased. When the club holds an event like WCC and it is covered by a magazine then the lust factor goes up some more. Little by little, baby steps, the 914 is becoming more desireable. This trend may continue or not, right now enough enough people desire 914s to have driven the market values up a bit. Saying we want prices to be higher or lower is meaningless when the demand is low it is a buyer's market as the demand increases so will price. Waiting for the supply side to dwindle can work. But if you plan on sitting n a car for 20-30 years it will also cost to keep the car in prime condition over that same amount of time so there is still a risk there. I think all of us that own 914s are at the wim of desire and demand.

But guy, the demand is there!--oh is the demand there!--I see it all over the net...

The problem is the people who do not care about the resale prices--which is keeping them low------this is a problem perpetrated all over--not just in here---

If people would just start opening their wallets--all the stuff we are paying out the ass for would drop in price--club people do mass purchases all the time to get a better price....

The other problem is the guy putting thousands into his car then accepting only a couple grand for it--that is systemic in our beloved cars resale values staying low---- which is why you never really see anything in-between--the car is either 2k or 20k--with far less 20k than 2k----

To think the market is not watching this trend is foolish--oh, THEY ARE WATCHING!

QUOTE (Steve Thacker @ Dec 27 2004, 03:15 PM)

The market price for a car is decided by people like us, not just newbies to classic car ownership. When we hold our cars to a higher level, then that will be the deciding factor of how much it is really going to command on the selling block. I have to admit that I have restored hundreds upon hundreds of America classic cars for myself and other clients. I realized early in the game that I would loose cash on some and gain some on others. I'm sure the owners found this out also. Yes the 914 due to "owner" consensus are being under valued. I have 16k in mine and I may or may not get 2/3rd's of my cash back if sold, labor doesn't even come into the equation at this point. That was my love and stubborness coming into play "hate to have a car beat me". We can bring up the value and status of these cars up "IF" we stick together as a solid owners foundation. The best way to find out is not take less than the car is worth. Don't get a offer that is exceptable?... Keep the sucker. Yes I'm suggesting that you personally and with honesty, inflate your cars value a wee bit. You have all this cash and sweat invested so protect it. The people who sell new or NOS parts for teeners are pulling this trick everyday. Don't believe me? Look at all those receipts you all have, seems like someone is makng their money and who is setting those prices?...they are. You have the car boys and girls! With all those highly inflated car parts ! And they are not worth any less because they are installed on the car. If so then who says they are now worth less?! What I'm trying to get at is.... That prices of "things" are not just controlled by supply and demand. So don't fall for that shit. These fine autos that we have enslaved ourselves to are worth as much as we are willing to let them go for, not necessarly what someone is willing to offer us for them. We all know buyers try to whittle us down, so don't play... stick to your guns. All I ever hear is how these little cars spank the shit out of 911s in the curves on the track, that says something folks. So if these cars can do that, why are people denying them their rightful place and net worth? Beats me.... I must be stupid for loving them then. I'll be damned that I give mine up for cheap on someones "opinion". I'm still in the stage that my cherry hasn't been popped yet by years with these cars and I know that, but I know cars and usually the problem is an anxious seller with  cash flow problems. So I too, cast my lot in with the consensus that we need to talk our cars up in all areas not down. Piss on negative skuttlebutt . nuff said......

WE HAVE A REAL PREACHER OF PHILOSOPHY WITH US BOYS AND GIRLS!!!!

AWESOME MY FRIEND, SIMPLY AWESOME!!!

This is what it is all about in the end game!!!!

Have a beer on me..

I think you hit on something there Steve. Supply & Demand are always in effect but the "motivated" seller can have adverse effects as well. Since so few 914s are used as people's primary transportation and may be considered hobby cars or toys many owners may not actual be bothered for seeling at a lower price. Some of these owners may feel it doesn't effect them or as you state may be desperate for the cash and make a quick underpriced sale.