Purchase price vs. resale price, possibly shooting ourselves in the foot? Options

[jwalters]

QUOTE (rdauenhauer @ Dec 27 2004, 02:25 PM)

QUOTE Again I am going to say it again-----we should not have to invest so much time and money into a car when a '59 morris mini in pieces commands 4k. So go buy Mini and stop you crabbin (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif) Jwalters your be'in stubborn and not Listening.... CARS in general and teeners specifically are not investments. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/bootyshake.gif) Holler at the moon all you wish .. aint gonna make it so.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif)

mini is too small for my big ass--- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif) plus I can't afford a 4k in pieces....

[jwalters]

QUOTE (Cloudbuster @ Dec 27 2004, 02:31 PM)

QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 01:44 PM) : Again I am going to say it again-----we should not have to invest so much time and money into a car when a '59 morris mini in pieces commands 4k. Nobody is making you invest any money into a 914. A wise investment requires research. If you had a 50/50 split on 'joy of ownership'/'resale' then you should have looked into cars that are fun to drive, have a low parts-car value and a very high complete car value. The underlying reason of this thread sounds like a grass is greener argument. "911 guys don't lose as much money as we do." I was using the professional / experienced people as an example that the percieved 'gains' that are out there to be made on non-914s probably are perceptions only. Of the people I've met, only one person made money on ONE car, the remainder of people talk about losses. These are wise people who make plenty of money doing things inside and outside of car businesses, aside from collecting cars. I think you're looking at supply and demand backwards. Prices won't drive up interest, interest will drive up prices. Unless the 914 becomes 908 rare which isn't likely. Stating that a 914 'deserves' higher values so your losses are better mitigated sounds more like (leftist) social entitlement than anything said about a market driven perception of a car's value. A higher entry price doesn't make things any better, it just means you have more money locked up in a thing that is susceptible to the next drunk driver or hurricane that comes along. Furthermore, what's to keep the next person that comes along from saying the same thing, the expenditures will be the same, only entry price will have changed. Having said that -- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

Yeah---no really--do you really think a teener has to become as rare as a 908 to be worth anything????

Again it is not about investing into a car(teener) to make money on it---it is about investing in a car so you do not lose soooo damn much because most people who already have one really gives a shit about the resale values----

That is what I am seeing on this board all too often and it is distressing---almost 3k members is strong JEDI--this many people in the 914 community could be an adverse influence if not carefull

With THAT said-- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/drunk.gif)

[jwalters]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) hey cloudbuster--you're one of those republicans ain't you.... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[jwalters]

QUOTE (jwalters @ Dec 27 2004, 02:35 PM)

QUOTE (rdauenhauer @ Dec 27 2004, 02:25 PM) QUOTE Again I am going to say it again-----we should not have to invest so much time and money into a car when a '59 morris mini in pieces commands 4k. So go buy Mini and stop you crabbin (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif) Jwalters your be'in stubborn and not Listening.... CARS in general and teeners specifically are not investments. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/bootyshake.gif) Holler at the moon all you wish .. aint gonna make it so. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif) mini is too small for my big ass--- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif) plus I can't afford a 4k in pieces....

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) I used to own a 1979 corvette, bought it for 5k in 1992---they are sellin for over 14k now--go figure (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif)

Should have kept that beastie--but hey--if I did, now I would not be a teener fanatic!!! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/pray.gif)

[Hi_Fi_Guy]

1. PERCEPTION: The days of the 914 being, "the poor mans porsche" are drawing to a close. With these cars being around thirty years old the supply of good cars is slowly disappearing. Repairing and maintaining these cars is becoming more expensive. The 914 will start to be seen as a premium classic car by more people over time.

2. PERFORMANCE: Historically the classic cars that retain their values are the cars that can continue to perform well enough to keep up with modern traffic. This is also why the biggest topics of discussion on this forum concern larger TYPE IVs, six conversions, and other non-porsche engined solutions. The 914 has been raced continually since new so there are a lot of performance enhancements out there to be had.

3. HERITAGE: New audiences are discovering these classic Porsches every day. The mid-engined, air-cooled, two-seater, targa topped sports car with two trunks is unique enough to be appealing some thirty years on. Compared to the newer water cooled Boxsters the 914 can deliver a pure sports car experience in a small, razor sharp, race car like package. The 914 looks like no other car and has the Porsche pedigree and a list of race wins as good as any.

4. SUPPORT: More vendors offering products for 914s. More Porsche restoration and performance shops. More resources like this forum and others. It has never been easier for someone to serice a 914, find parts & services for a 914, or see a 914 project through to completion. The value of these vendors, shops, and clubs is paramount to the thriving 914 marketplace.

The 914 is slowly becoming more rare, has modern performance (or can be made to have modern performance), has a family heritage that includes racing and nostalgia for the Porsche brand, and has support by clubs, vendors, and shops. Add to this the unique features of the 914 and it becomes clear why this car will continue to attract a more diverse crowd of owners.

All of the above will have an effect on the values of 914s but the number one factor will be desire. How bad does some one desire one of these cars? If someone want's something enough they can, and will justify any and all cost. Do they desire a fast 914-6, a wild 914-8, a 100% stock 914, a concours car? This random desire is what we can not really account for.

We can speculate the value of a 914 all day. If no one desires a 914 then it's value is actually zero, if everyone suddendly had to have one the values would increase in relation to availability (think Harley Davidson where dealers usually charge a premium OVER MSRP on every unit sold). When Excellenece runs a feature article on the 914 it's desireability is slight increased. When the club holds an event like WCC and it is covered by a magazine then the lust factor goes up some more. Little by little, baby steps, the 914 is becoming more desireable. This trend may continue or not, right now enough enough people desire 914s to have driven the market values up a bit.

Saying we want prices to be higher or lower is meaningless when the demand is low it is a buyer's market as the demand increases so will price. Waiting for the supply side to dwindle can work. But if you plan on sitting n a car for 20-30 years it will also cost to keep the car in prime condition over that same amount of time so there is still a risk there. I think all of us that own 914s are at the wim of desire and demand.

[jwalters]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) BUT, what I HOPE everyone realizes is the big time editor of "Excellance"is also a club member-- and he is listening to us..........

Hey, big time editor for excellance--please don't reduce the values of our cars from reading this thread--please, please, please,

You are awesome--so very awesome (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/pray.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/pray.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/pray.gif)

How about a case of your favorite brew????????? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[Steve Thacker]

The market price for a car is decided by people like us, not just newbies to classic car ownership. When we hold our cars to a higher level, then that will be the deciding factor of how much it is really going to command on the selling block. I have to admit that I have restored hundreds upon hundreds of America classic cars for myself and other clients. I realized early in the game that I would loose cash on some and gain some on others. I'm sure the owners found this out also. Yes the 914 due to
"owner" consensus are being under valued. I have 16k in mine and I may or may not get 2/3rd's of my cash back if sold, labor doesn't even come into the equation at this point. That was my love and stubborness coming into play "hate to have a car beat me".

We can bring up the value and status of these cars up "IF" we stick together as a solid owners foundation. The best way to find out is not take less than the car is worth. Don't get a offer that is exceptable?... Keep the sucker. Yes I'm suggesting that you personally and with honesty, inflate your cars value a wee bit. You have all this cash and sweat invested so protect it. The people who sell new or NOS parts for teeners are pulling this trick everyday. Don't believe me? Look at all those receipts you all have, seems like someone is makng their money and who is setting those prices?...they are. You have the car boys and girls! With all those highly inflated car parts ! And they are not worth any less because they are installed on the car. If so then who says they are now worth less?! What I'm trying to get at is....
That prices of "things" are not just controlled by supply and demand. So don't fall for that shit. These fine autos that we have enslaved ourselves to are worth as much as we are willing to let them go for, not necessarly what someone is willing to offer us for them. We all know buyers try to whittle us down, so don't play... stick to your guns. All I ever hear is how these little cars spank the shit out of 911s in the curves on the track, that says something folks. So if these cars can do that, why are people denying them their rightful place and net worth? Beats me.... I must be stupid for loving them then. I'll be damned that I give mine up for cheap on someones "opinion".

I'm still in the stage that my cherry hasn't been popped yet by years with these cars and I know that, but I know cars and usually the problem is an anxious seller with cash flow problems.

So I too, cast my lot in with the consensus that we need to talk our cars up in all areas not down. Piss on negative skuttlebutt .

nuff said......

[jwalters]

QUOTE (Hi_Fi_Guy @ Dec 27 2004, 03:05 PM)

1. PERCEPTION: The days of the 914 being, "the poor mans porsche" are drawing to a close. With these cars being around thirty years old the supply of good cars is slowly disappearing. Repairing and maintaining these cars is becoming more expensive. The 914 will start to be seen as a premium classic car by more people over time. 2. PERFORMANCE: Historically the classic cars that retain their values are the cars that can continue to perform well enough to keep up with modern traffic. This is also why the biggest topics of discussion on this forum concern larger TYPE IVs, six conversions, and other non-porsche engined solutions. The 914 has been raced continually since new so there are a lot of performance enhancements out there to be had. 3. HERITAGE: New audiences are discovering these classic Porsches every day. The mid-engined, air-cooled, two-seater, targa topped sports car with two trunks is unique enough to be appealing some thirty years on. Compared to the newer water cooled Boxsters the 914 can deliver a pure sports car experience in a small, razor sharp, race car like package. The 914 looks like no other car and has the Porsche pedigree and a list of race wins as good as any. 4. SUPPORT: More vendors offering products for 914s. More Porsche restoration and performance shops. More resources like this forum and others. It has never been easier for someone to serice a 914, find parts & services for a 914, or see a 914 project through to completion. The value of these vendors, shops, and clubs is paramount to the thriving 914 marketplace. The 914 is slowly becoming more rare, has modern performance (or can be made to have modern performance), has a family heritage that includes racing and nostalgia for the Porsche brand, and has support by clubs, vendors, and shops. Add to this the unique features of the 914 and it becomes clear why this car will continue to attract a more diverse crowd of owners. All of the above will have an effect on the values of 914s but the number one factor will be desire. How bad does some one desire one of these cars? If someone want's something enough they can, and will justify any and all cost. Do they desire a fast 914-6, a wild 914-8, a 100% stock 914, a concours car? This random desire is what we can not really account for. We can speculate the value of a 914 all day. If no one desires a 914 then it's value is actually zero, if everyone suddendly had to have one the values would increase in relation to availability (think Harley Davidson where dealers usually charge a premium OVER MSRP on every unit sold). When Excellenece runs a feature article on the 914 it's desireability is slight increased. When the club holds an event like WCC and it is covered by a magazine then the lust factor goes up some more. Little by little, baby steps, the 914 is becoming more desireable. This trend may continue or not, right now enough enough people desire 914s to have driven the market values up a bit. Saying we want prices to be higher or lower is meaningless when the demand is low it is a buyer's market as the demand increases so will price. Waiting for the supply side to dwindle can work. But if you plan on sitting n a car for 20-30 years it will also cost to keep the car in prime condition over that same amount of time so there is still a risk there. I think all of us that own 914s are at the wim of desire and demand.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) But guy, the demand is there!--oh is the demand there!--I see it all over the net...

The problem is the people who do not care about the resale prices--which is keeping them low------this is a problem perpetrated all over--not just in here---

If people would just start opening their wallets--all the stuff we are paying out the ass for would drop in price--club people do mass purchases all the time to get a better price....

The other problem is the guy putting thousands into his car then accepting only a couple grand for it--that is systemic in our beloved cars resale values staying low---- which is why you never really see anything in-between--the car is either 2k or 20k--with far less 20k than 2k----

To think the market is not watching this trend is foolish--oh, THEY ARE WATCHING!

[jwalters]

QUOTE (Steve Thacker @ Dec 27 2004, 03:15 PM)

The market price for a car is decided by people like us, not just newbies to classic car ownership. When we hold our cars to a higher level, then that will be the deciding factor of how much it is really going to command on the selling block. I have to admit that I have restored hundreds upon hundreds of America classic cars for myself and other clients. I realized early in the game that I would loose cash on some and gain some on others. I'm sure the owners found this out also. Yes the 914 due to "owner" consensus are being under valued. I have 16k in mine and I may or may not get 2/3rd's of my cash back if sold, labor doesn't even come into the equation at this point. That was my love and stubborness coming into play "hate to have a car beat me". We can bring up the value and status of these cars up "IF" we stick together as a solid owners foundation. The best way to find out is not take less than the car is worth. Don't get a offer that is exceptable?... Keep the sucker. Yes I'm suggesting that you personally and with honesty, inflate your cars value a wee bit. You have all this cash and sweat invested so protect it. The people who sell new or NOS parts for teeners are pulling this trick everyday. Don't believe me? Look at all those receipts you all have, seems like someone is makng their money and who is setting those prices?...they are. You have the car boys and girls! With all those highly inflated car parts ! And they are not worth any less because they are installed on the car. If so then who says they are now worth less?! What I'm trying to get at is.... That prices of "things" are not just controlled by supply and demand. So don't fall for that shit. These fine autos that we have enslaved ourselves to are worth as much as we are willing to let them go for, not necessarly what someone is willing to offer us for them. We all know buyers try to whittle us down, so don't play... stick to your guns. All I ever hear is how these little cars spank the shit out of 911s in the curves on the track, that says something folks. So if these cars can do that, why are people denying them their rightful place and net worth? Beats me.... I must be stupid for loving them then. I'll be damned that I give mine up for cheap on someones "opinion". I'm still in the stage that my cherry hasn't been popped yet by years with these cars and I know that, but I know cars and usually the problem is an anxious seller with  cash flow problems. So I too, cast my lot in with the consensus that we need to talk our cars up in all areas not down. Piss on negative skuttlebutt . nuff said......

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) WE HAVE A REAL PREACHER OF PHILOSOPHY WITH US BOYS AND GIRLS!!!! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/pray.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/pray.gif)

AWESOME MY FRIEND, SIMPLY AWESOME!!!

This is what it is all about in the end game!!!!

Have a beer on me.. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)

[Hi_Fi_Guy]

I think you hit on something there Steve. Supply & Demand are always in effect but the "motivated" seller can have adverse effects as well. Since so few 914s are used as people's primary transportation and may be considered hobby cars or toys many owners may not actual be bothered for seeling at a lower price. Some of these owners may feel it doesn't effect them or as you state may be desperate for the cash and make a quick underpriced sale.

[carambola]

talk, talk, talk.
you want the money, learn how to race it. win a national cup, and then attract the interest of the wine and cheese crowd. who knows, you may be the butt of a drunken joke.

[jwalters]

QUOTE (carambola @ Dec 27 2004, 03:38 PM)

talk, talk, talk. you want the money, learn how to race it. win a national cup, and then attract the interest of the wine and cheese crowd. who knows, you may be the butt of a drunken joke.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) And a very merry new year to you-------------

[anthony]

You've posted so many different ideas here that it's hard to respond to just one. Here's some food for thought:

I bought a 911SC because it would have cost me over $30K to build a 914-6 with a 3L motor and 915 transmission and bring the paint and body work to the level of the 911. I could make the same case that 911SCs are undervalued. Is a heavier Carrera with 15 extra hp and a G50 tranny really worth double the price? Personally I don't think so but the market has decided otherwise.

Overall 914 prices are up on premium cars. I'm talking turn-key runners - nice original or even improved cars with straight bodies and nice paint. Beater 914s are still priced about where they were 3 years ago when I bought my 914. The price gap is widening based on condition.

Unfortunately, the price point of the 914 often attracts buyers who don't have the money to properly care for or restore their car. And since they only put a few thousand dollars into it, they don't care about it as much as a guy that put $15K into an old 911. I see lots of 914 abuse even on this board. The guys that post a pic of their 914 parked outside with 2 feet of snow on it should be embarrassed to post such a pic. It's not funny. It's sad to see a 914 rusting away outside in the winter when it should be in a garage or at minimum under a cover. My 914 gets wet 3 times a year for a wash and wax.

Here's my other pet peeve about classic car owners: "Over $XX,XXX invested!" To me the money you put into your car after you buy it is upgrade and maintenace costs. Research them before you buy a car. 914 owners should be budgeting $500-1000/year for ownership. That may mean a few years where you only spend $200 doing oil changes and tune-ups but then a year where you spend $3,000 to refresh the transmission or $5,000 to paint the car. It all evens out in the end. If you buy a $2,000 car, you'll have more big bills over the years. If you buy a $7,000 car you'll have less.

These cars are valued where they are because of supply and demand. You get a large spread between a beater and an outstanding car. I've seen:

914-4 free to $17K
914-6 $5K to $25K

[redshift]

I have near $20k in my piece of shit, and it needs a complete restoration.. THANKS OTTO!

So, around $35k for a... as you say, $2k car!

NO FUGGIN THANK YOU!

These cars will never be worth half as much as the sum total of the parts you just add as you go.. a set of seals puts the typical 914 over the line.

If you want to collect something that makes money, I have guitars for sale... and I already made mine..

It's harder to drive this crap everyday, especially after spending all day Saturday in a 500SL.


M

[Part Pricer]

I just got in after a drive (not in the 914) up to Boston and back. I’m tired and grumpy, but I do have to say that I’ve found this thread to be most amusing.

The only ways that a seller can demand a premium price for an item is to either have a specimen that truly demands a premium or the seller has a stranglehold on the supply.

So, if you want, demand more for your cars. I hope that you get it. The only thing that I see would be you pricing yourself above the market and then not really being part of the market.

Supply and Demand. It’s a law, not a suggestion.

[SLITS]

I'm getting the impression that Mr. Walters should go talk to Mr. Hussey and buy a car from him....it'll be the price you want.

[curtis]

QUOTE (Cloudbuster @ Dec 27 2004, 12:44 PM)

I think that for the normal individual, there is very little money to be made off any one car, period. You’ll NEVER get your time or money investment back on a car unless you got an absolutely great deal on the car being used as a base, and even then they’re usually more curse than blessing. I think the only money to be made on cars is as a dealer or professional restorer. Thanks to my former boss (who is now on a 356 bender – a coupe, a speedster, and restoring an SC and a Carrera 2) I’ve been privileged to hang around with big(ger) money Porsche types. One person said he only made money on ONE car in his twenty of years buying, selling and dealing with collectible cars -- 910s, 911s, Abarths, etc. You also need to think of who you’re competing with and who you are selling to. Unless your $12+5k improved SC is significantly better, and appeals to just the right person (who has to have it now), you’ve moved the car into the next price bracket. Your car is working at the high end of its price bracket, and now has to deal with other (better?) cars at the low end of the next price bracket. Example: You have a beautiful ’71 1.7 tailshifter for $4K with non-stock options, and somebody is selling a worn, but good condition ’73 2.0 sideshifter for $5k. I’d be going for the ‘73. You can complain about the wine-and-cheese-ers but they are the ones that have the scratch to throw $20k at a car that can sit in a garage and look pretty most of the time. They are also willing to put up with the foibles and quirks of a part-time driver car that is ‘correct’ rather than have the 'better' later-model that isn’t correct, no matter how much ‘nicer’ the seller thinks it is. I think that expecting 'good' resale any car that isn't restored to showroom stock is not wise. Personal preference varies dramatically, and the only 'real' standard that would conform to the widest audience is showroom stock. The wider the audience, the greater likelihood that somebody will pay top dollar for your car. There problem is that nobody values your time and choices like you do. A car is a set of compromises and the set you’ve chosen will most likely not match the set of compromises the next person is willing to accept. I don’t want a car that somebody else has worked on, because I get the impression that there is a bunch of ‘un-work’ to be done to reverse the compromises the previous owner found accept get the car to a desirable base. One thing I see a bad in rising values is there is less money for aftermarket parts. The cheaper the car, the more cash we as a community have to squander on Konis, roller suspension bushings and whatnot. Those things make 914s better. Inflated values do nothing to make the car better or improve the bottom lines of the entrepreneurs.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif) 1000% it is what it is. .....just a hobby regardless if it is a Ferrai or a Yugo you are still going to have to pay for parts and or labor or just plain maintenance. The only people making real money in anything automotive related are the share holders of Honda and Toyota and the dealers and salesman that sells them!!!! The restorer guys are usually a slave to overhead costs and what not(that is another story!)...so I GUESS THE ONLY WAY OTHER THAN THE ABOVE TO MAKE REAL MONEY WHEN IT COMES TO CARS IS TO SELL PARTS. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)

[Aaron Cox]

QUOTE (SLITS @ Dec 27 2004, 05:28 PM)

I'm getting the impression that Mr. Walters should go talk to Mr. Hussey and buy a car from him....it'll be the price you want.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif)

[brant]

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Dec 27 2004, 05:39 PM)

QUOTE (SLITS @ Dec 27 2004, 05:28 PM) I'm getting the impression that Mr. Walters should go talk to Mr. Hussey and buy a car from him....it'll be the price you want. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif)

Hey... I have one too..
I'm happy to charge to much and sell it..

In fact, I've owned it since I was 15 and have tons of memories or working on it... It will be super super super valuable due to sentimental reasons, even though it has scab plates fixing the rust!

brant

[72914S]

The only way to get your investment back is to drive the s*!t out of it ! For me it is the only reason I did it. It`s a fun car and a great hobby. I did not restore it with the thought of a monitary investment but to have a car that not everyone else had. I hope parts cars never go up in price. Can`t think of anything better than finding a free or nearly free car even if there is only a couple of parts I need! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beerchug.gif)