Bought a part here that was blatently misreprsented, How would you feel ?? Options

[toolguy]

After thinking about whether I should let others know about this issue, I decided the right thing to do is post the pictures and issue with no names at this point so he can see what was delivered to me as 'rust free'. . .
Here's the story. . .
A long time member sold this deck lid recently and represented is as straight and rust free. . here's his PM to me when I specifically asked about any rust, which was my main concern. .

"" Dave. . . Once you pay for it, it's yours. It will just sit at XXXX's shop...
Not sure when I'll get back to LA. My daughter's in Diamond Bar. She is planning a trip home next.
It is as described. Very straight, there's no rust.""

So I pay his full asking price, no quibbling, based on his representation of the condition. I make the 2 day 1200 mile trip to pick it up and here is what I find. . .rust from most of the seems , especially the rear lower lip. .
I tell the 'shop owner' the seller said no rust. . He replies "That's between you and the seller". .
So there I am, 600 miles away from home, with a lid I would have never bought in the first place if it had been properly described. Since seller that already specifically stated "Once you pay for it, it's yours", and the shop owner stating that he's out of the picture as to condition, I feel somewhat compelled to take it or lose everything as I'm already out 2 days traveling 12000 miles, 60+ gallons of gas and a hotel for the night,

I PM the seller that day to let him know about the rust issue. . . I ask for an email address so I can provide him a picture, thinking maybe, just maybe, he was unaware of the extent of the rust. . He goes AWOL for days, and despite numerous requests for an email, has yet to give me one. .
His last PM to me was that I was strong-arming him for a refund, and said "There is really no point. I have already offered a refund and all you have to do is return the lid to XXX's shop.
There is currently a lid listed at $175 that looks like crap by comparison. Regardless of what you found, this lid is worth $200"

So here is a shot of the so called rust free deck lid for the seller to see since he won't email me his address. .
My last message to him was the I felt he would also be disappointed if the same happened to him. .
Burns my butt that a long time member would actually describe this as rust free and now blame me for accepting it, . His latest PM was for me to drive the 1200 mile trip and return the hood which doesn't make financial sense . . .

SO for the seller. . is this rust or not ??

[boxsterfan]

Not taking sides here, but what was your plan for the engine lid? Install it and run as is? Or have it painted?

I agree there is some rust on the lid and definitely doesn't meet the definition of "rust free". Would be better for the seller to have sent the detailed pics first? And to mention that there is minor surface rust along the seems? Of course, that would have meant the price would not be as high.

If you are going to have it painted, you would eventually end up having that rust sanded/blasted off. Maybe a negotiated discount on the price you paid is in order?

Just 0.02....

[budk]

After thinking about whether I should let others know about this issue, I decided the right thing to do is post the pictures and issue with no names at this point so he can see what was delivered to me as 'rust free'. . .
Here's the story. . .
A long time member sold this deck lid recently and represented is as straight and rust free. . here's his PM to me when I specifically asked about any rust, which was my main concern. .

"" Dave. . . Once you pay for it, it's yours. It will just sit at XXXX's shop...
Not sure when I'll get back to LA. My daughter's in Diamond Bar. She is planning a trip home next.
It is as described. Very straight, there's no rust.""

So I pay his full asking price, no quibbling, based on his representation of the condition. I make the 2 day 1200 mile trip to pick it up and here is what I find. . .rust from most of the seems , especially the rear lower lip. .
I tell the 'shop owner' the seller said no rust. . He replies "That's between you and the seller". .
So there I am, 600 miles away from home, with a lid I would have never bought in the first place if it had been properly described. Since seller that already specifically stated "Once you pay for it, it's yours", and the shop owner stating that he's out of the picture as to condition, I feel somewhat compelled to take it or lose everything as I'm already out 2 days traveling 12000 miles, 60+ gallons of gas and a hotel for the night,

I PM the seller that day to let him know about the rust issue. . . I ask for an email address so I can provide him a picture, thinking maybe, just maybe, he was unaware of the extent of the rust. . He goes AWOL for days, and despite numerous requests for an email, has yet to give me one. .
His last PM to me was that I was strong-arming him for a refund, and said "There is really no point. I have already offered a refund and all you have to do is return the lid to XXX's shop.
There is currently a lid listed at $175 that looks like crap by comparison. Regardless of what you found, this lid is worth $200"

So here is a shot of the so called rust free deck lid for the seller to see since he won't email me his address. .
My last message to him was the I felt he would also be disappointed if the same happened to him. .
Burns my butt that a long time member would actually describe this as rust free and now blame me for accepting it, . His latest PM was for me to drive the 1200 mile trip and return the hood which doesn't make financial sense . . .

SO for the seller. . is this rust or not ??

Free rust.... But not rust free. Best to continue to try and work it out, maybe resell it and ask the original seller for half of the difference. Hindsight, but if you had pics in the first place you would have saved yourself a trip.... Sucks when this happens.

[scotty b]

IMHO good luck finding a hood that doesn't have that. NO RUST is completely subjective. To me that is rust free, a rusty lid IMO would be one that has significant rust, and has pitted or worse, has perforated the metal. What you have is stains, most every one I have seen that wasn't repainted looked like that. Lighter colors look the worst. I'd give 200.00 for that all day long (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) And yes pics are key. It seems that the seller didn't provide them, and you didn't ask for them.

[cal914]

Who sold it to you,i don't think it looks that bad

[stugray]

Being around these cars so much, that would be called surface rust and the structural integrity is not comprimised.

SO I would say it is bordering on rust free when compared to most other parts on these cars.
So the proper descrition might have been "Cosmetic rust only - minor touch up to inside required".

[Cevan]

You drove 1200 miles for a decklid and you live in S. California? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[TeenerTim]

I agree with Scotty. That looks pretty good to me. There are no holes, no bubbles, and no paint flaking off. If you are that particular you should have asked for photos before hitting the road.

[SirAndy]

While i agree that the surface rust doesn't look bad and can probably be easily blasted without any permanent pitting or holes, the point here is that "Rust free" and "Minor surface rust" are two different things.


If the lid had been advertised as having minor surface rust, none of this would be an issue.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[R8CERX]

I would also feel misled as Toolguy feels....

I know of his work and the pride he takes on his work; as well as his deep knowledge in the field of 914's and more.

Thus, I can understand when he ACTUALLY asks about the rust--and the seller should at least have mentioned at that time that there was some visible surface rust.

Not getting the pictures did not help; but then again, the seller should have disclosed the surface rust...or any type of rust, as RUST FREE, means rust free... my car lids don't have any visible rust... so I could sell them as rust free.

Then again, his problem could easily be resolved if the seller did at least respond to his inquiries. At that point, I believe Toolguy would not be replying via the forum to the seller.

I did also order some parts (probably from a different seller?) and I did not get what it was described--and again, this was a member of this organization.

I would suggest to our community to keep tabs on those folks that we seem to run into once in a while and disappoint us when advertising and not delivering as promised--sounds like an ebay scoring process...not sure if this is something our computer experts can implement...

Toolguy--I hope the seller does have honor and responds to your concerns and works out a deal that is fair. Even if the lid was sold at a great price, it is the honesty-principle that is in question.

I am off my medications... I need to go take them before my period comes!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[76-914]

Thank God these type situations don't happen here that often. That being said I'd like to point out to all the nubee's ahead of time that there is no such thing as Santa, the Tooth Fairy, an Honest Politician or rust free 914's. So, if at some point in time, someone asks you if your 914 or 914 part is rust free "Just say no" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) or tell them that it's there somewhere. You just haven't found it yet.

[ConeDodger]

First of all, I am that seller. Here is that ad...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=8/10+deck+lids

You will notice, that I did not represent them as rust free, no rust, free rust or even mention the word rust. Dave, when he sent me the PM saying he would take them, did not ask for pictures nor mention the word rust.

The reason I did not mention the word rust, is that I was not aware of it. The one picture he provided shows surface rust under the hinge attachment. I did not uninstall the lid. McMark or one of his shop guys did. As for the rust at the underside of the lid, I never looked up so I didn't know it existed. But again, rust was never discussed until that last PM when I said "no rust."

What Dave is not telling you is that his daughter lives in Auburn California and he came up to see her. So, representing that he drove what? 1400 miles for a $200 deck lid is not exactly accurate. Further, he expressed some concern according to him when he went to pick up the lid to McMark and states that McMark said words to the effect that "that is between you and Rob." I agree with Mark. It is between Dave and myself. But Mark does have my phone number and we talk at least every 2 weeks or so. If Dave had asked, Mark could have had me on the phone within a minute. Or, and this is where I really have a problem with the situation, he could have walked away and gotten a refund. I have repeatedly said that I would give his money back. There are two other buyers who contacted me after he told me he would buy it.

This lid is worth at least the $200 he paid and I priced it at that price because it is a pain to ship and I wanted (as stated in the ad) a local buyer.

Dave has repeatedly been offered a complete refund. He has been told that that offer stands. Yes, I told him I would not renegotiate it and I stand by that. If he had done what was right in the first place and walked away, he would have his money and I or someone else would have the lid. He'd be happy and I wouldn't have to type all of this.

Dave has stated in a PM that he doesn't want his money back. Ok, then why are we talking. He said all he wanted was my email address so he could send me pictures. I tried to do that from my iPad yesterday but I accidentally hit the send button without including my email.. Sorry. Dave has even implied that he thinks Mark gave him the wrong lid and kept mine for himself. At that point, he pissed me off. Mark is one of the most trustworthy people I know. He's not the first one to do that, and that guy got told off.

So here it is, publicly. Dave, if you aren't happy, return the lids to Mark or even just bring them to your daughter's house in Auburn and when it is in my hands, I will instantly refund your money. I will hand it to your daughter or send it by Paypal and include the fees.

But don't come her using words like "blatantly" when rust was never mentioned in the ad, in the PM's until you had already paid. Don't come here pumping people up by telling them you drove 1400 miles and not mentioning that your daughter lives in Auburn and McMark's shop is only a slight detour. And please don't forget to mention that you have repeatedly been offered a refund.

I'm sure you can be a nice guy and we would get along fine but tell the whole story.

I will edit this to include the PM where you told me you would take the lid and never asked for pictures beyond what was in the ad.

"I'll take it if we can figure out how to get it to San Diego
without damage. .
My daughter is in Auburn and I can drive up for a visit
Let me know if you have a better idea.
Dave toolguy "

[ConeDodger]

Oh, and did you try a little compound? That looks like it will rub right off...

[TJB/914]

No dog in the race!!! Just my observation looking at rust.

When I inspect a lid for rust issues along the seam, I run my two fingers along the seam & if it's raised (blistered) with rust btwn. the two seams I proceed with caution.
Question::
What do you feel when your run two fingers along the seam?? normal or a raised seam?? Surface minor rust can be fixed with a little TLC. I mostly worry if it shows on the top side only.
BTW: I would get (2) different outside opinions to make a final judgment call, before I would put these issues on the board. Everyone has different levels of rust opinions when advertising on the board.
Rule 101:: Always ask for detailed photo's.

Tom

[r_towle]

You drove 1200 miles for a decklid and you live in S. California? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[r3dplanet]

That's total crap and you've been cheated. Good for you for calling it out.

I sell things all the time in my business and I would never declare this part to be "rust free."

By definition, "rust free" means that there is NO RUST. It isn't a subjective term. It's not graded on a scale. It is, in fact, a complete lie and a dishonest representation regardless of how the seller or others chose to sugar coat it.

Now your $200 purchase has turned into a far more expensive purchase in order to get it stripped and painted just to bring it to the condition you were told it would be in first place. That's the real cost of a dishonest sale.

The same thing has happened to me repeatedly buying from the ads here before so now I demand photos of anything I intend to buy. You'll probably have to do the same from now on.

[worn]

SO for the seller. . is this rust or not ??

Yep, it is rust. I bought a rust-free car and replaced the floors in trunk and cabin and the entire lower rear firewall inside and out. So, I think you got a better deal than I did.
I sent more than you spent to a seller on this board and never got my item. So I think you got a better deal.

If I buy something on this board I always send more than the asking price if the seller is an active member. Helps for the inconvenience. I figure it won't work if you don't pay it forward. And for the most part, I have had great luck here in lots of ways.

I am sorry about your disappointment, but I can paint that so it won't rust again. Wish this hadn't come between you two. Not sure this is the correct forum for this, eh? I understand though, this is where the people you know are.

[r_towle]

Witch

[toolguy]

[quote name='ConeDodger' date='May 1 2014, 12:01 PM' post='2031940']
First of all, I am that seller. Here is that ad...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=8/10+deck+lids

You will notice, that I did not represent them as rust free, no rust, free rust or even mention the word rust. Dave, when he sent me the PM saying he would take them, did not ask for pictures nor mention the word rust.

Not True. . I specifically ask if there was any rust and you replied none. . here is the actual messages. . you decide if I mentioned rust. . . .
------------------I asked about any rust before purchase -----------------------------
Rob..
Biggest thing, is it straight and no rust. . ?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)
How log can you hang on to it for me if we
can't figure out something other than me driving up??

I 'may' be able to drive up in late April. . got to check vacation
schedule. .
Dave
------------------Rob's Reply -------------------------------------

Dave,
Once you pay for it, it's yours. It will just sit at Marks shop...
Not sure when I'll get back to LA. My daughter's in Diamond Bar. She is planning a trip home next.
It is as described. Very straight, there's no rust. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
Rob
------------------------------------------------------------------
and now you're saying I never said anything about rust ??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

The reason I did not mention the word rust, is that I was not aware of it. The one picture he provided shows surface rust under the hinge attachment.

This isn't surface rust. . it is rust coming out of the seams and bleeding into the visible surfaces adjacent to the seams. . the rust under the hinge portion is surface and can be treated effectively. That picture was to show the seam rust along the side edges.

I did not uninstall the lid. McMark or one of his shop guys did. As for the rust at the underside of the lid, I never looked up so I didn't know it existed. But again, rust was never discussed until that last PM when I said "no rust."

What Dave is not telling you is that his daughter lives in Auburn California and he came up to see her.

Yep I told Rob that, but that was not part of my travel because McMarks shop is close on Friday and Sats. . I had to got up on a Wednesday and picked up the lid on Thursday at 10 am and went home. . Didn't get to see my daughter, she was working and couldn't get any Vacation time. and she is another 100 miles one way from for Mark shop. . . trip was just for pickup of Lid.

This lid is worth at least the $200 he paid and I priced it at that price because it is a pain to ship and I wanted (as stated in the ad) a local buyer.

But don't come her using words like "blatantly" when rust was never mentioned in the ad, in the PM's until you had already paid.
That's exactly the issue. . you did not disclose the rust in your 'For Sale" ad or in any following emails. . This isn't hidden rust, it's blatantly visible {What else can you call it?]. . Also, your email answer I posted above makes it pretty clear, I paid AFTER you said there was no rust

Don't come here pumping people up by telling them you drove 1400 miles and not mentioning that your daughter lives in Auburn and McMark's shop is only a slight detour. And please don't forget to mention that you have repeatedly been offered a refund.

Refund. . what do you expect me to do. . drive another 2 day trip to return it ?? that's not smart is it?. . . And it was actually 1200 miles and your email shows you failed to disclose rust when I specifically asked about it. . .
Yes the lid is usable to someone who doesn't care about any rust coming back in a year or tow. . someone could paint over it . . but the rust is inside the seams and it will always come back in a year or two after painting. . I wanted it for a Concour Series Car, thats why I was very particular to ask "ANY RUST?" And based on you reply, that is why I was willing to drive 2 days for yours. . . Like I said to you before, I already have a lid like this so yours is of no use to me as it is. . I've been restoring and painting cars for over 40 years, and unless you can cut out the rust completely it will always come back. .and there is no way to stop it once it is inside the blind seams. . it's just a matter of time. .

I'm sure you can be a nice guy and we would get along fine but tell the whole story.

I will edit this to include the PM where you told me you would take the lid and never asked for pictures beyond what was in the ad.
I didn't ask for any more pictures because I trusted your word there was no rust. .


End of story, I really did not want this to be a pissing match and I probably did get a lid worth $200 to someone, just not the total amount I spent to get it to me, however money is not the issue and I have not every asked for any refund. I do feel like we are a bunch of guys working together to a mutual benefit of enjoying these little cars and keeping them going. . Since I had no other way, I posted this to get the pictures to Rob so he could see what I was talking about as he was adamant there was no rust. . Any other time, I'm sure we'd be having a beer together and talking cars.. at the same time, I expect the truth to be known.
Life's too short and it's only money. . .Over. . . Done. .Fini

['73-914kid]

So there is a little bit of surface rust, and some rust at the seam. It honestly seems very clean to my eyes, but the pictures are sirAndy quality..

I'm confused why this has become such a big issue though. You drove up to pick up a trunk lid, and to visit your daughter, but couldn't meet up with her.. so you look at the trunk lid, and it's not up to snuff in your opinion.. At that point, I would head home and cut my losses for the weekend.

Why go through the hassle of driving it back, and going through all of this? He offered you a full refund.. Take it, and move on, or sell it on to someone else local. From what I have seen, that is indeed worth at least $200.

Just my $0.02. I don't like confrontations, so I would rather just cut my losses and head home, rather than drive back with a part I wasn't happy with and go through this mess IMO.