After thinking about whether I should let others know about this issue, I decided the right thing to do is post the pictures and issue with no names at this point so he can see what was delivered to me as 'rust free'. . .
Here's the story. . .
A long time member sold this deck lid recently and represented is as straight and rust free. . here's his PM to me when I specifically asked about any rust, which was my main concern. .

"" Dave. . . Once you pay for it, it's yours. It will just sit at XXXX's shop...
Not sure when I'll get back to LA. My daughter's in Diamond Bar. She is planning a trip home next.
It is as described. Very straight, there's no rust.""

So I pay his full asking price, no quibbling, based on his representation of the condition. I make the 2 day 1200 mile trip to pick it up and here is what I find. . .rust from most of the seems , especially the rear lower lip. .
I tell the 'shop owner' the seller said no rust. . He replies "That's between you and the seller". .
So there I am, 600 miles away from home, with a lid I would have never bought in the first place if it had been properly described. Since seller that already specifically stated "Once you pay for it, it's yours", and the shop owner stating that he's out of the picture as to condition, I feel somewhat compelled to take it or lose everything as I'm already out 2 days traveling 12000 miles, 60+ gallons of gas and a hotel for the night,

I PM the seller that day to let him know about the rust issue. . . I ask for an email address so I can provide him a picture, thinking maybe, just maybe, he was unaware of the extent of the rust. . He goes AWOL for days, and despite numerous requests for an email, has yet to give me one. .
His last PM to me was that I was strong-arming him for a refund, and said "There is really no point. I have already offered a refund and all you have to do is return the lid to XXX's shop.
There is currently a lid listed at $175 that looks like crap by comparison. Regardless of what you found, this lid is worth $200"

So here is a shot of the so called rust free deck lid for the seller to see since he won't email me his address. .
My last message to him was the I felt he would also be disappointed if the same happened to him. .
Burns my butt that a long time member would actually describe this as rust free and now blame me for accepting it, . His latest PM was for me to drive the 1200 mile trip and return the hood which doesn't make financial sense . . .

SO for the seller. . is this rust or not ??

Not taking sides here, but what was your plan for the engine lid? Install it and run as is? Or have it painted?

I agree there is some rust on the lid and definitely doesn't meet the definition of "rust free". Would be better for the seller to have sent the detailed pics first? And to mention that there is minor surface rust along the seems? Of course, that would have meant the price would not be as high.

If you are going to have it painted, you would eventually end up having that rust sanded/blasted off. Maybe a negotiated discount on the price you paid is in order?

Just 0.02....

Free rust.... But not rust free. Best to continue to try and work it out, maybe resell it and ask the original seller for half of the difference. Hindsight, but if you had pics in the first place you would have saved yourself a trip.... Sucks when this happens.

IMHO good luck finding a hood that doesn't have that. NO RUST is completely subjective. To me that is rust free, a rusty lid IMO would be one that has significant rust, and has pitted or worse, has perforated the metal. What you have is stains, most every one I have seen that wasn't repainted looked like that. Lighter colors look the worst. I'd give 200.00 for that all day long And yes pics are key. It seems that the seller didn't provide them, and you didn't ask for them.

Who sold it to you,i don't think it looks that bad

Being around these cars so much, that would be called surface rust and the structural integrity is not comprimised.

SO I would say it is bordering on rust free when compared to most other parts on these cars.
So the proper descrition might have been "Cosmetic rust only - minor touch up to inside required".

You drove 1200 miles for a decklid and you live in S. California?

I agree with Scotty. That looks pretty good to me. There are no holes, no bubbles, and no paint flaking off. If you are that particular you should have asked for photos before hitting the road.

While i agree that the surface rust doesn't look bad and can probably be easily blasted without any permanent pitting or holes, the point here is that "Rust free" and "Minor surface rust" are two different things.


If the lid had been advertised as having minor surface rust, none of this would be an issue.

I would also feel misled as Toolguy feels....

I know of his work and the pride he takes on his work; as well as his deep knowledge in the field of 914's and more.

Thus, I can understand when he ACTUALLY asks about the rust--and the seller should at least have mentioned at that time that there was some visible surface rust.

Not getting the pictures did not help; but then again, the seller should have disclosed the surface rust...or any type of rust, as RUST FREE, means rust free... my car lids don't have any visible rust... so I could sell them as rust free.

Then again, his problem could easily be resolved if the seller did at least respond to his inquiries. At that point, I believe Toolguy would not be replying via the forum to the seller.

I did also order some parts (probably from a different seller?) and I did not get what it was described--and again, this was a member of this organization.

I would suggest to our community to keep tabs on those folks that we seem to run into once in a while and disappoint us when advertising and not delivering as promised--sounds like an ebay scoring process...not sure if this is something our computer experts can implement...

Toolguy--I hope the seller does have honor and responds to your concerns and works out a deal that is fair. Even if the lid was sold at a great price, it is the honesty-principle that is in question.

I am off my medications... I need to go take them before my period comes!

Thank God these type situations don't happen here that often. That being said I'd like to point out to all the nubee's ahead of time that there is no such thing as Santa, the Tooth Fairy, an Honest Politician or rust free 914's. So, if at some point in time, someone asks you if your 914 or 914 part is rust free "Just say no" or tell them that it's there somewhere. You just haven't found it yet.

First of all, I am that seller. Here is that ad...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=8/10+deck+lids

You will notice, that I did not represent them as rust free, no rust, free rust or even mention the word rust. Dave, when he sent me the PM saying he would take them, did not ask for pictures nor mention the word rust.

The reason I did not mention the word rust, is that I was not aware of it. The one picture he provided shows surface rust under the hinge attachment. I did not uninstall the lid. McMark or one of his shop guys did. As for the rust at the underside of the lid, I never looked up so I didn't know it existed. But again, rust was never discussed until that last PM when I said "no rust."

What Dave is not telling you is that his daughter lives in Auburn California and he came up to see her. So, representing that he drove what? 1400 miles for a $200 deck lid is not exactly accurate. Further, he expressed some concern according to him when he went to pick up the lid to McMark and states that McMark said words to the effect that "that is between you and Rob." I agree with Mark. It is between Dave and myself. But Mark does have my phone number and we talk at least every 2 weeks or so. If Dave had asked, Mark could have had me on the phone within a minute. Or, and this is where I really have a problem with the situation, he could have walked away and gotten a refund. I have repeatedly said that I would give his money back. There are two other buyers who contacted me after he told me he would buy it.

This lid is worth at least the $200 he paid and I priced it at that price because it is a pain to ship and I wanted (as stated in the ad) a local buyer.

Dave has repeatedly been offered a complete refund. He has been told that that offer stands. Yes, I told him I would not renegotiate it and I stand by that. If he had done what was right in the first place and walked away, he would have his money and I or someone else would have the lid. He'd be happy and I wouldn't have to type all of this.

Dave has stated in a PM that he doesn't want his money back. Ok, then why are we talking. He said all he wanted was my email address so he could send me pictures. I tried to do that from my iPad yesterday but I accidentally hit the send button without including my email.. Sorry. Dave has even implied that he thinks Mark gave him the wrong lid and kept mine for himself. At that point, he pissed me off. Mark is one of the most trustworthy people I know. He's not the first one to do that, and that guy got told off.

So here it is, publicly. Dave, if you aren't happy, return the lids to Mark or even just bring them to your daughter's house in Auburn and when it is in my hands, I will instantly refund your money. I will hand it to your daughter or send it by Paypal and include the fees.

But don't come her using words like "blatantly" when rust was never mentioned in the ad, in the PM's until you had already paid. Don't come here pumping people up by telling them you drove 1400 miles and not mentioning that your daughter lives in Auburn and McMark's shop is only a slight detour. And please don't forget to mention that you have repeatedly been offered a refund.

I'm sure you can be a nice guy and we would get along fine but tell the whole story.

I will edit this to include the PM where you told me you would take the lid and never asked for pictures beyond what was in the ad.

"I'll take it if we can figure out how to get it to San Diego
without damage. .
My daughter is in Auburn and I can drive up for a visit
Let me know if you have a better idea.
Dave toolguy "

Oh, and did you try a little compound? That looks like it will rub right off...

No dog in the race!!! Just my observation looking at rust.

When I inspect a lid for rust issues along the seam, I run my two fingers along the seam & if it's raised (blistered) with rust btwn. the two seams I proceed with caution.
Question::
What do you feel when your run two fingers along the seam?? normal or a raised seam?? Surface minor rust can be fixed with a little TLC. I mostly worry if it shows on the top side only.
BTW: I would get (2) different outside opinions to make a final judgment call, before I would put these issues on the board. Everyone has different levels of rust opinions when advertising on the board.
Rule 101:: Always ask for detailed photo's.

Tom

That's total crap and you've been cheated. Good for you for calling it out.

I sell things all the time in my business and I would never declare this part to be "rust free."

By definition, "rust free" means that there is NO RUST. It isn't a subjective term. It's not graded on a scale. It is, in fact, a complete lie and a dishonest representation regardless of how the seller or others chose to sugar coat it.

Now your $200 purchase has turned into a far more expensive purchase in order to get it stripped and painted just to bring it to the condition you were told it would be in first place. That's the real cost of a dishonest sale.

The same thing has happened to me repeatedly buying from the ads here before so now I demand photos of anything I intend to buy. You'll probably have to do the same from now on.

Yep, it is rust. I bought a rust-free car and replaced the floors in trunk and cabin and the entire lower rear firewall inside and out. So, I think you got a better deal than I did.
I sent more than you spent to a seller on this board and never got my item. So I think you got a better deal.

If I buy something on this board I always send more than the asking price if the seller is an active member. Helps for the inconvenience. I figure it won't work if you don't pay it forward. And for the most part, I have had great luck here in lots of ways.

I am sorry about your disappointment, but I can paint that so it won't rust again. Wish this hadn't come between you two. Not sure this is the correct forum for this, eh? I understand though, this is where the people you know are.

Witch

[quote name='ConeDodger' date='May 1 2014, 12:01 PM' post='2031940']
First of all, I am that seller. Here is that ad...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=8/10+deck+lids

You will notice, that I did not represent them as rust free, no rust, free rust or even mention the word rust. Dave, when he sent me the PM saying he would take them, did not ask for pictures nor mention the word rust.

Not True. . I specifically ask if there was any rust and you replied none. . here is the actual messages. . you decide if I mentioned rust. . . .
------------------I asked about any rust before purchase -----------------------------
Rob..
Biggest thing, is it straight and no rust. . ??
How log can you hang on to it for me if we
can't figure out something other than me driving up??

I 'may' be able to drive up in late April. . got to check vacation
schedule. .
Dave
------------------Rob's Reply -------------------------------------

Dave,
Once you pay for it, it's yours. It will just sit at Marks shop...
Not sure when I'll get back to LA. My daughter's in Diamond Bar. She is planning a trip home next.
It is as described. Very straight, there's no rust.
Rob
------------------------------------------------------------------
and now you're saying I never said anything about rust ???

The reason I did not mention the word rust, is that I was not aware of it. The one picture he provided shows surface rust under the hinge attachment.

This isn't surface rust. . it is rust coming out of the seams and bleeding into the visible surfaces adjacent to the seams. . the rust under the hinge portion is surface and can be treated effectively. That picture was to show the seam rust along the side edges.

I did not uninstall the lid. McMark or one of his shop guys did. As for the rust at the underside of the lid, I never looked up so I didn't know it existed. But again, rust was never discussed until that last PM when I said "no rust."

What Dave is not telling you is that his daughter lives in Auburn California and he came up to see her.

Yep I told Rob that, but that was not part of my travel because McMarks shop is close on Friday and Sats. . I had to got up on a Wednesday and picked up the lid on Thursday at 10 am and went home. . Didn't get to see my daughter, she was working and couldn't get any Vacation time. and she is another 100 miles one way from for Mark shop. . . trip was just for pickup of Lid.

This lid is worth at least the $200 he paid and I priced it at that price because it is a pain to ship and I wanted (as stated in the ad) a local buyer.

But don't come her using words like "blatantly" when rust was never mentioned in the ad, in the PM's until you had already paid.
That's exactly the issue. . you did not disclose the rust in your 'For Sale" ad or in any following emails. . This isn't hidden rust, it's blatantly visible {What else can you call it?]. . Also, your email answer I posted above makes it pretty clear, I paid AFTER you said there was no rust

Don't come here pumping people up by telling them you drove 1400 miles and not mentioning that your daughter lives in Auburn and McMark's shop is only a slight detour. And please don't forget to mention that you have repeatedly been offered a refund.

Refund. . what do you expect me to do. . drive another 2 day trip to return it ?? that's not smart is it?. . . And it was actually 1200 miles and your email shows you failed to disclose rust when I specifically asked about it. . .
Yes the lid is usable to someone who doesn't care about any rust coming back in a year or tow. . someone could paint over it . . but the rust is inside the seams and it will always come back in a year or two after painting. . I wanted it for a Concour Series Car, thats why I was very particular to ask "ANY RUST?" And based on you reply, that is why I was willing to drive 2 days for yours. . . Like I said to you before, I already have a lid like this so yours is of no use to me as it is. . I've been restoring and painting cars for over 40 years, and unless you can cut out the rust completely it will always come back. .and there is no way to stop it once it is inside the blind seams. . it's just a matter of time. .

I'm sure you can be a nice guy and we would get along fine but tell the whole story.

I will edit this to include the PM where you told me you would take the lid and never asked for pictures beyond what was in the ad.
I didn't ask for any more pictures because I trusted your word there was no rust. .


End of story, I really did not want this to be a pissing match and I probably did get a lid worth $200 to someone, just not the total amount I spent to get it to me, however money is not the issue and I have not every asked for any refund. I do feel like we are a bunch of guys working together to a mutual benefit of enjoying these little cars and keeping them going. . Since I had no other way, I posted this to get the pictures to Rob so he could see what I was talking about as he was adamant there was no rust. . Any other time, I'm sure we'd be having a beer together and talking cars.. at the same time, I expect the truth to be known.
Life's too short and it's only money. . .Over. . . Done. .Fini

So there is a little bit of surface rust, and some rust at the seam. It honestly seems very clean to my eyes, but the pictures are sirAndy quality..

I'm confused why this has become such a big issue though. You drove up to pick up a trunk lid, and to visit your daughter, but couldn't meet up with her.. so you look at the trunk lid, and it's not up to snuff in your opinion.. At that point, I would head home and cut my losses for the weekend.

Why go through the hassle of driving it back, and going through all of this? He offered you a full refund.. Take it, and move on, or sell it on to someone else local. From what I have seen, that is indeed worth at least $200.

Just my $0.02. I don't like confrontations, so I would rather just cut my losses and head home, rather than drive back with a part I wasn't happy with and go through this mess IMO.

Seller said, Once he paid for it, it was HIS. What's he going to do? Chance leaving it and being out $200 AND the part?

Seller will refund ONLY if the lid gets back 1200 miles to its starting point. Is it wise to spend $240 in gas and 2 days time?

No matter what, the lid still has rust.

Rust is rust...it never sleeps.

I agree with Scotty B, I think that could be prepped, cleaned and jambed for your concourse restoration all day long as it should be done that way anyways. If you're doing a "concourse" restoration I would think every single inch of that car top and bottom would be done so you know every square inch of the car as well as document it. It' looks very clean to me for a 40 plus year panel IMO and my .02......

There might be about 3,000 of those in the southern California area sitting on shelves....maybe keep looking?

I was expecting the pics to show the lid looking pretty bad. Looked pretty good to me, even for CA. I agree with Scotty

I bought 914-6 front torsion bars from a guy. They turned out to be painted (over the rust) 911 units.

I had the bad luck of dealing with that seller too.
He misrepresent an engine and a crank he had for sale. When I asked this seller to support his representations in the add he was very evasive and finally asked the moderator to delete my posts. More specifically, I asked him for a dyno chart to prove his engine was what he claimed.

The lid is rusty and had been misrepresent. That is not minor rust and I wouldn't mount that on my car.

But I'm sure that the seller being who he is, won't change his attitude and will continue to claim it's the buyer's problem. Some people are incapable to change.

Sorry for your loss.

ILBT

I don't get it...$200 for the purchase, $240 in gas plus the cost of a hotel room.

This COULDN'T have been the only engine lid close to you.

End the drama. Someone will buy it from you the minute it goes in the classifieds. I have to go with what I see and not in person. On this old a car it's just a little rust to buff down, treat, paint.

Sorry this happened. You're both good guys in World.

I bought it because it was suppose to be 'Straight and NO Rust". . and this was the first one I found . . that was my motivating factor. . . so many lids have had condensation accumulate inside over the years and the water drips into the rear lower lip inside the framework, and they become ticking time bombs. . . often the first issue is rust bubble coming thru the outside paint at the very lowest rear lip oft, more likely in the center above the lock assembly. . .
Here's an example that was repaired 3 years ago, cut out and leaded in and it is coming back'
see little bubble in upper right corner.
Rust is like an Ex. . it never completely goes away. .

That's a lie. You've never purchased anything from me. Your posts were deleted without me asking because you were violating the classified rules.
You've got a hard on for mr Raby. That's fine, jake can take care of himself. I wasn't evasive, I just wasn't going to take the bait and get into a discussion on a classified ad.

Seems to me that this got a lot worse because the buyer took possession of the part. if it was not up to par he should have left it and asked for a refund. Most of us here are doing this for a hobby and the money is not as important as reputations. Please use common sense when buying and selling so we can have more fun posts and less stupid ones.

Nothing else to see here, I'm locking this thead

Good ole fashion WITCH HUNT

Not much good coming from this. Tool guy I'll buy the lid & pay you for your time. This is just going over the top. Both of you are upset. Who hasn't made a trip to buy something rust free. I've wasted way to much money making trips to buys 914's. Only to find obvious issues that were held back. I walked away pissed off but without the 914 or the part. I can see both sides so let's finish this. Let me help you both out. Let's just stop with the he said stuff from everyone. This thread is going nowhere good

Jamie...No its not your Fight...

Not happy return it and get you're $$ back.

You have driven a long way to find the rusty car, the. You bought it, started working on it....but wait, another one has been located...get my trailer....

ALL 914 parts now have surface rust. Even NOS stuff has rust now. If you know how to treat and stop it it will out last you. If I were closer I would gladly give you $ 200.00 for that lid. The 6 I purchased from California had rust through the rear lid above the latch. It happens. I purchased a lid from a car in Vegas. I'm picking it up when I get out west.

If you fixed rust holes in your lid with lead your asking for it to blow up in your face. There is a big stupid piece of foam in the cavity above the latch. The heat required to tin the metal and blend the solder is plenty enough to cause oxidation to start forming. Any thin metal you didn't find are now on an accelerated path to failure. Did you get a year or two out of that repair? you were lucky.

Here's how you treat the inner structure and inner lid assuming you have no holes. First use a scraper, piece of sheet metal, sand paper or anything you can get to scrape loose any scale you can get to between the inner structure and outer lid. Wash the area out with your favorite rust converter. Be sure to neutralize the converter and use heat to dry the lids inner structure. Media blast the part to remove the paint and surface rust.

Purchase Eastwoods rust encapsulator in a spray can. http://www.eastwood.com/rust-encapsulator-...ce-aerosol.html This product has an awesome spray nozzle that fans the product as it sprays.

Mask the gap all the way around the inner structure to seal the space. Use the hinge, latch and bump stop holes to inject and flood the encapsulator into the sealed space. It's thin enough to seep through the pinch weld flanges.

I have used this method on lids with surface rust showing. The key is to take your time and get the scale off as good as you can.

Contrary to popular belief. I do not buy every 914 I look at . I'd be willing to bet I have passed on more than I have bought . Okay maybe not but I don't buy every one I see. Even more so now. I'm not on CL looking for them every day. I have chilled out some

First step of recovery is to stop lying about your additiction...

I thought the first step was admitting you have an addiction ?


This is why you think you're on the road to recovery T.M. You never admitted to the addiction

I heard all 914s left the factory with rust already forming...

Isn't this how the Civil War started?

Over rust? Admittedly, my US history knowledge is 3rd hand and lacking, but i don't remember that part ...

what exactly is a lie? Is it the rust free part or the engine you claimed it performs like Jake's engines without being built by him?
As I said,you're still the same, just older now. And I'm sure you'll have something to say but I don't care any more.
You better return the money to the buyer. You lied to him.

Sheesh.

I REALLY wish you had been more clear when you picked up the lid. I would have given you a full refund on the spot because I know Rob and I know that's exactly what he would do. I heard you say, "Sheesh, this has some rust on the lower edge. Oh well, I paid for it, I'll take it home."

Next time ask for pictures. The rust-free you're looking for doesn't exist. All the lids were built 40 years ago and all of them have seen weather, or at least condensation.

Dave this is going to be my last words on the subject. When you do something like this, a lot of idiots come out and though they should have nothing to say, they spill their brains. No one tried to cheat you. The word cheating implies intent. That would require me to willfully think 'I'm going to take this rusty old piece of crap deck lid and write an ad and hope that I hook someone stupid enough not to ask about rust." This is one of the nicest lids around. It isn't NOS which apparently you were looking for, but I have seen people hoard a half dozen lids that I wouldn't give to the kids to use as a sled. This one you could bolt to a car and improve the looks.

Mistakes I made:

I told you it didn't have rust. Well frankly, my car spends more time at McMark's shop than my house and there is a 200 mile gap between my house and his shop. I have never noticed that rust. I certainly have never noticed rust that was under the hinge. So I'm sorry for that.

I didn't respond to your PM's in a timely manner. Well, the nature of my work is that I can be in several states in a single day. I put my phone on airplane mode so the battery doesn't deplete and I have just moments to check it when I get on the ground. Sorry, I didn't have time to be your captive audience while you aired your grievances.

I misunderstood you when you said you just wanted to know how I would feel. It appeared you were trying to renegotiate and that lid is worth every penny.

Mistakes you made:

You said you would take it and your only concern was how we were going to make the exchange. I then took it off the market losing two local sales from guys I know who are living in the reality that this isn't rust in the 40 year old Porsche sense.

You told me your daughter lived in Auburn and that you could incorporate a trip to see her with picking it up. I told you our daughter lives in Diamond Bar and if you could wait, I could bring it down when I visit. Then, you took a two day 1200 mile trip and stayed in a hotel to pick up a $200 deck lid. Again,

You misunderstood me when I said once you pay for it, it's yours. That meant you don't have to worry about it. It would safely wait for you at Original Customs.

I'm still having a really hard time with the you driving 1200 miles and staying in a hotel but let's move on. Then, you went to Mark's, didn't like the lid, told him, didn't have him call me, and took it. My reaction in the PM is the same as it is now

Finally, you've been offered a refund several times but all you want is to show me some pictures of what frankly doesn't look that bad and know how I would feel? We'll brace yourself, because I'm going to tell you. I feel like you had so many opportunities to stop this.

Thanks to all the guys who've contacted me with PMs on here and Facebook.

This is over, let's move along... Edited to remove name calling. Sorry, that's not me...