Which comes first: Straightening the tub or structural rust repair? Options

[doug_b_928]

?

[Dave_Darling]

I believe that Andy is hinting that it might not be the best idea in the world...

--DD

[rick 918-S]

I had a local expert take a look this weekend. Setting aside for the moment his conclusion that this car is "not a candidate for restoration," he did have a good idea for how to fix the twist. The rear suspension points differ at the most 1/4" side to side. The twist is almost entirely before the shock towers. So, his idea is to cut-off the back end of the car before the shock towers and replace with a donor. I've seen pics of repairs up to the trunk crossmember, but would this work with a butt weld straight across all the way coming to just behind the shock tower area?

Sorry, No.

If I ever get started on my video you will very shortly realize how far the damage can and did travel in a unitized chassis.

But for starters. Bolt a bird cage to your work bench. Then lightly push on one of the bars. How many flex and move?

Now push hard enough to bend one of the bars. Now check the bars on the other side of the cage. Are they in the same vertex or now arched from the tension created by the bent bar on the opposite side? Grab the top and twist it right to left. Does the top only move or are the bars twisting all the way to the base?
Same principle.

Cutting off what the eye see's and what you THINK is damaged leaves an unrepairable car in the end. You are talking about a chassis that is measured to 3mm tolerance. Your eye can not detect three thicknesses of a dime in 3'. If you have a noticeable twist you can see with the naked eye the damage traveled well beyond the end of the trunk.

If the guy you talked to is a self proclaimed expert then he is either a good salesman or you misunderstood him entirely.

BTW: I'm no self proclaimed expert but I will be staying at the Comfort Inn tomorrow night.

[mepstein]

part it and move on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif)

[rick 918-S]

part it and move on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif)

Doug posted this is his first car and has sentimental value. What is not worth fixing to some is for others. The problem is overcoming the amount of cash that it will require to make it happen the right way. As we used to say in the shop. You always have the time and money to do it right the second time.

[doug_b_928]

Rick, very wise words as always. If nothing else, I've very much enjoyed learning from your thoughtful and, yes, "expert" replies to my questions. To restore or not to restore is the struggle I'm having. I can't bring myself to part the car out, and there's not much worth parting anyway. I could see spending $20K on it, but that basically gets me a finished shell (probably $12,000 for metal work and panels, $7,500 for body work and painting; plus exchange into CDN and fuel costs to transport it for the work, and I'm not sure if the government would want some tax as well). The car needs everything else too. I was hoping to do almost all of the work myself and believe that, with the excellent information in this forum and the braintrust here, if I had a straight chassis I could do the rust repair and mechanical work myself. But the bent chassis has really buggered me. At this point I'm going to put it into storage and wait for more clarity on what to do with it. I had a lot of fun taking the car apart this summer, but I'm one who feels compelled to put things back together after taking them apart. Now that I know a lot more about these cars, at least I'll be able to make a good assessment of a future 914 purchase, if I ever get another one.

[mepstein]

sorry, i missed the first car part of the story. Scotty is working on my first car so i do understand what your thinking. Best of luck with what ever you decide.

[rick 918-S]

Here's my heart felt suggestion. Box it up, Keep the memories, and spend the money on a nice driver level car. If you were willing to spend 20k on your old car you can get a very nice example in that level of car. Too bad you wife dislikes Ravenna. I have enough cars here it is very likely I could talk Sandy into selling her car to you provided you kept it as rust free as it is. I can build her another one. I'd like to see you get into a car and enjoy the memories of your old car rather than regret the day you decided to start on a long trip into the depths of hell holes and twisted metal. Just a thought..

[76-914]

If it has sentimental value, keep it. Just re-purpose it. Make some furniture out of it. The trunks (either) can be made into a (grand)child's bed, front bumper/grilles or rear panel w/ lights make cool Wall Art, the chairs can easily be adapted, Gage pod and gages make a neat desk ornament and so on. These cars never have to really die if someone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wub.gif) them.

[doug_b_928]

@ Rick, you're a good guy. No matter what happens, some day we have to meet in person. I'll likely get down to Duluth at some point. Would love to meet and also see the 918.

@76, it's funny, when I brought it out of storage this summer to begin working on it, my father-in-law took one look underneath and suggested that I take it back to the farm, erect a giant pole, and place the car on the pole as a piece of art (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[mbseto]

If the twist is mainly aft of the shock towers, I'd approach it this way... Make a cut in the trunk floor starting in the side corner a little aft of the tower, running back to the rear, then all the way across the back and up the corner on the other side to the same point. Leave this for the moment and repair the rails, firewall, whatever else in the torsion box. This will fix the door gaps and the 1/4" at the rear suspension mounts. Fixing that 1/4" will probably account for about 1/2" at the rear. Then with the rails secure to the bench, i.e. everything forward of the towers held straight, throw a jack under the low corner and straighten the rear. That slot you cut will develop an overlap on one side and a gap on the other. Trim the overlap and make a shim for the gap, then weld it up again.

[rick 918-S]

If the twist is mainly aft of the shock towers, I'd approach it this way... Make a cut in the trunk floor starting in the side corner a little aft of the tower, running back to the rear, then all the way across the back and up the corner on the other side to the same point. Leave this for the moment and repair the rails, firewall, whatever else in the torsion box. This will fix the door gaps and the 1/4" at the rear suspension mounts. Fixing that 1/4" will probably account for about 1/2" at the rear. Then with the rails secure to the bench, i.e. everything forward of the towers held straight, throw a jack under the low corner and straighten the rear. That slot you cut will develop an overlap on one side and a gap on the other. Trim the overlap and make a shim for the gap, then weld it up again.

Or you could fix it the right way..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wacko.gif)

If your not kidding remind me not to buy any car you owned.

[trojanhorsepower]

OK I'll through my 2 cents in.
The car has sentamental value, but as previously pointed out you will have a mountain of cash and years of labor in this car. I would suggest that you do as Rick suggested and buy a really nice car that is already fixed up, then make your car in to some sort of art. You could cut the front off and make a sofa, or cut one side off and mount it to the wall of your shop. or ... or.... just creat some sort of sculpture (that will help with your welding and mechanical understanding of the car) and give you a cool momento of your first car.

[doug_b_928]

Yes, I agree with the wisdom to not fix it up and that looks like it is likely to be the final decision. I will keep it as my own parts car in case I decide to get another one, and that way any pieces I use will be at least parts of the car living on.

[Tilly74]

I believe the great Jeremy Clarkson said it best...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtG7DD0Ufu8

[mbseto]

"Or you could fix it the right way...."

They've already rejected cutting off the back and replacing it with a straight one. But just out of curiosity, have you looked at many of the build threads here? I think I've seen every possible combination of cut-it-off, re-fabricate, and weld-it-on. I don't remember seeing many objections...

[Chris H.]

Doug,

It's not an easy decision, but to fix that you would be replacing so much of the car it would be mostly new anyway. You can still use many of the parts from the shell...shift knob, other interior parts, etc.

And then do something cool like this:



Not mine, found it on the interweb.

Or this:

Wall Art

[rick 918-S]

"Or you could fix it the right way...."

They've already rejected cutting off the back and replacing it with a straight one. But just out of curiosity, have you looked at many of the build threads here? I think I've seen every possible combination of cut-it-off, re-fabricate, and weld-it-on. I don't remember seeing many objections...

I hope you don't take offense. This is flat text and easily misunderstood. I think I'm a lot less frank than the crusty one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
But yes I have. As long as I have been around here with member # 43 I think I've seen a lot of it. I actually have contributed to many of the build threads with advise and even helped personally when I could. I've even talked some guy's off the ledge when they were in over their head and ready to throw in the towel. I've driven hundreds of miles with special tools to lend a hand.

You may not know but I am a former collision/resto shop owner and have a Celette fixture bench used to repair fine German automobiles.

I agree many guy's have cut and replaced sections and parts. But not in the manor in which you described. That is not straightening anything. It's rendering the chassis unrepairable. There is a big difference in cutting out rust damage and replacing the damage with used or new parts, and cutting a bent chassis and scabbing pieces of metal in gaps and calling it a repaired car.

All your suggestion would do is make an unsafe car worse by altering the crush zones and weakening the chassis not to mention building in unpredictable and dangous handling. I think the tech guys would call it bricked.

[r_towle]

Shit bricked....

Still flat text aside...... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/KMA.gif)

[saigon71]

I had a local expert take a look this weekend. Setting aside for the moment his conclusion that this car is "not a candidate for restoration," he did have a good idea for how to fix the twist. The rear suspension points differ at the most 1/4" side to side. The twist is almost entirely before the shock towers. So, his idea is to cut-off the back end of the car before the shock towers and replace with a donor. I've seen pics of repairs up to the trunk crossmember, but would this work with a butt weld straight across all the way coming to just behind the shock tower area?

My first car was a 1970 VW Karmann Ghia. I thought I had a rare one because it had 1969 tail lights. Nope, the rear of a 69 was butt welded to the front of a 1970. I took the time to get it on the road, but it never tracked right and chewed through tires. I'm sure it could be done better, but it's a costly risk.

I understand your attachment to the car...but the idea of having parts from it in a better shell doesn't sound too bad.

Good luck with your decision.