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> Type 4 Store 2270, Type 4 Store 2270
lexatola
post Oct 18 2014, 12:08 AM
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I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on the 2270 engine kit from the Type 4 store. I'm curious if anyone knows what the difference between the kit and the Raby 2270 SR. I see they each have different HP specs. Do we think this is an actual difference or just a difference in written spec? Same cam? Same Heads? Curious if this kit can make better HP than 140? Headers? Other tested and ordained cam?

I'd appreciate any input based on experience,

Best,

Alex
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VaccaRabite
post Oct 18 2014, 03:05 AM
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Different engines built to different specs using different parts.
I've never heard a bad thing about the 2270 kit engine and I want to build one some day. At this rate that day won't be until my 2 year old is in college, but it's good to have goals.

Zach
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Harpo
post Oct 18 2014, 04:23 AM
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I was not aware that they started selling engine kits again
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EdwardBlume
post Oct 18 2014, 05:48 AM
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McMark. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mcmark.gif)
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Mblizzard
post Oct 18 2014, 06:09 AM
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They are. Looking around that store is like surfing engine porn! You just sit there and dream about how you would be all over that!
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Mark Henry
post Oct 18 2014, 07:19 AM
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QUOTE(Harpo @ Oct 18 2014, 06:23 AM) *

I was not aware that they started selling engine kits again

Type4store is now run (sold to I assume) by LN Engineering, Charles has his act together so service should be top notch.

The kits would be based on Raby combos for now. I imagine Len would still be doing the heads.
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JStroud
post Oct 18 2014, 07:52 AM
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You are correct, the type 4 store is now owned by LN engineering.
They are selling parts and engine kits, Raby is only doing turn key engines now.

McMark however will still build you anything you want.
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lexatola
post Oct 18 2014, 10:34 AM
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Thanks all for the confirmation that we think the kit is made up of some different components than the turnkey motors. I'm just trying to sort out the best path. Seems like if you take a 2.0 add headers, twin carbs and a hotter cam that this would get things up to 125hp or so. The kit feels like a lot of investment for another 15HP. I'm wondering if the kit can be pumped up by a yet hotter cam and with headers? Is there 160hp in the kit there to be extracted? Any experience with this? I'm assuming that the key difference between the kit and turn key is cam and heads?


Thanks,

Alex
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McMark
post Oct 18 2014, 11:25 AM
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I find that looking at the HP numbers is just confusing. It gives the wrong impression. Especially considering that most around town driving is more about torque than HP.

A 1.7 is fine.
A 2.0 is good.
A 2056 is fun.
A 2270 is great.

Beyond that a kit means you accept some risk and you have to know what you're doing. You're not buying an engine, you're buying parts.

A longblock motor means your buying something built by someone who's been down that road more than a few times. You're buying a shortcut as well. Instead of spending 20-30 hours building a motor (how many weekends or evenings is that?) you can skip that part and get something that just needs to be installed. Then you need to tune and adjust the motor.

A turnkey motor is the quickest route to getting running, but costs the most. A turnkey has been tuned and should be ready to just install and then turn they key.

You're decision should be based on the money/time equation, in my opinion. Secondarily would be to buy as much motor as you can afford.
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ChrisFoley
post Oct 18 2014, 12:05 PM
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QUOTE(lexatola @ Oct 18 2014, 11:34 AM) *

Thanks all for the confirmation that we think the kit is made up of some different components than the turnkey motors. I'm just trying to sort out the best path. Seems like if you take a 2.0 add headers, twin carbs and a hotter cam that this would get things up to 125hp or so. The kit feels like a lot of investment for another 15HP. I'm wondering if the kit can be pumped up by a yet hotter cam and with headers? Is there 160hp in the kit there to be extracted? Any experience with this? I'm assuming that the key difference between the kit and turn key is cam and heads?


Thanks,

Alex

140hp isn't hard to achieve in a 2056.

It's possible to reach 180 streetable hp in a 2270 with the right components.
I have one in a customer 914 here right now.
It wasn't built using one of the Type 4 Store kits but the builder copied their parts combination to the best of his ability.
However, that specific combination may not be one of the kits offered at this time.

I believe the output numbers on the Type 4 Store listings are conservatively based on the builder not having a tuned header.
I also think some of the specific parts info may be transposed between two kit listings, adding some confusion.
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Mikey914
post Oct 18 2014, 12:06 PM
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Exponential power to price curve. Pick your sweet spot, and buy the insurance of having someone who knows what they are doing put it together. Send a core to mark, have him build it, drive the car down for a long weekend with the wife, drive it home (break in) change the oil when you get home any you are good to go. I plan to do this some day.
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Mark Henry
post Oct 18 2014, 12:41 PM
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A header is the cheapest boost in HP and it's a bolt on. Stock it will give you about 10% and on a 2270 as much as 20% increase in HP.
No other single mod will give you that for the same coin.


QUOTE(McMark @ Oct 18 2014, 01:25 PM) *

Instead of spending 20-30 hours building a motor (how many weekends or evenings is that?) you can skip that part and get something that just needs to be installed. Then you need to tune and adjust the motor.

I'd say you're a tad low on that build time estimate.... or at least not counting a few steps. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)
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Hank914
post Oct 18 2014, 01:16 PM
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What is there for a slight bump in HP if you want to keep your 1.7 with existing dual Dell's, and you want economy and longevity of engine life as the main factor, with performance secondary?

It seems there is lots of info on 2.0 upgrades/conversions, but not much for the 1.7. I suspect it's because people want to get away from the 1.7 as fast as possible, not unlike the side shift upgrades away from the tails.

But what's a 1.7L person to do, other than run away?
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Mark Henry
post Oct 18 2014, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE(Hank914 @ Oct 18 2014, 03:16 PM) *

What is there for a slight bump in HP if you want to keep your 1.7 with existing dual Dell's, and you want economy and longevity of engine life as the main factor, with performance secondary?

It seems there is lots of info on 2.0 upgrades/conversions, but not much for the 1.7. I suspect it's because people want to get away from the 1.7 as fast as possible, not unlike the side shift upgrades away from the tails.

But what's a 1.7L person to do, other than run away?

Like I said.... header.
It's a bolt on.
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ConeDodger
post Oct 18 2014, 01:40 PM
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QUOTE(McMark @ Oct 18 2014, 08:25 AM) *

I find that looking at the HP numbers is just confusing. It gives the wrong impression. Especially considering that most around town driving is more about torque than HP.

A 1.7 is fine.
A 2.0 is good.
A 2056 is fun.
A 2270 is great.

Beyond that a kit means you accept some risk and you have to know what you're doing. You're not buying an engine, you're buying parts.

A longblock motor means your buying something built by someone who's been down that road more than a few times. You're buying a shortcut as well. Instead of spending 20-30 hours building a motor (how many weekends or evenings is that?) you can skip that part and get something that just needs to be installed. Then you need to tune and adjust the motor.

A turnkey motor is the quickest route to getting running, but costs the most. A turnkey has been tuned and should be ready to just install and then turn they key.



You're decision should be based on the money/time equation, in my opinion. Secondarily would be to buy as much motor as you can afford.


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

The only time HP # means anything is when your foot is all the way to the floor and the engine is at redline. Unless they've started allowing Internet access from jail, I doubt that's the way you drive.

The 2270 is very driveable. Lots less shifting than the stock motor because of the torque. There's power everywhere so you just put your foot down and pass...
The 2056 is in my opinion, the best all round motor for the 914 4 crowd. It costs less to build and creates a reliable and enjoyable jump in power and torque.
The real power in these motors is found in the heads. I doubt the stated 140HP includes Len Hoffman and Jake Raby's LE200 heads that could and probably would add 40-50HP to that number.
If you're not willing to spend the money for the 2270 with LE Series heads, build a 2056...
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Hank914
post Oct 18 2014, 02:13 PM
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QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Oct 18 2014, 12:27 PM) *

QUOTE(Hank914 @ Oct 18 2014, 03:16 PM) *

What is there for a slight bump in HP if you want to keep your 1.7 with existing dual Dell's, and you want economy and longevity of engine life as the main factor, with performance secondary?

It seems there is lots of info on 2.0 upgrades/conversions, but not much for the 1.7. I suspect it's because people want to get away from the 1.7 as fast as possible, not unlike the side shift upgrades away from the tails.

But what's a 1.7L person to do, other than run away?

Like I said.... header.
It's a bolt on.


Thanks for the reply. Yes, I saw that. I should have asked the question that popped into my head: Since this is a daily driver in Cali-Oregon Cascades, I regularly drive in sub-freezing (and occasional sub-zero) temps, what does a header do to the heat exchange? Or more specifically, are there any headers with exchangers built in? What are the heat options with headers? And finally, are there any electrical heater options that could plug into the cig lighter or direct wire?
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Mark Henry
post Oct 18 2014, 04:38 PM
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QUOTE(Hank914 @ Oct 18 2014, 04:13 PM) *



Thanks for the reply. Yes, I saw that. I should have asked the question that popped into my head: Since this is a daily driver in Cali-Oregon Cascades, I regularly drive in sub-freezing (and occasional sub-zero) temps, what does a header do to the heat exchange? Or more specifically, are there any headers with exchangers built in? What are the heat options with headers? And finally, are there any electrical heater options that could plug into the cig lighter or direct wire?


To me you have a choice ...heat or in your case about 10 extra hp, or the extreme of swapping exchangers and headers 2X year. Tangerine did have a heat box option at one time you could see if he still does.

The only thing that works electrically is heated seats, the heaters are total crap.
A gas heater is a do-able option but it costs and is a lot of work.
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lexatola
post Oct 18 2014, 05:00 PM
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Thanks again for the continued activity. I like torque but I also like high revving HP. I have an Emory 356 that puts out about 120hp at the wheels and weighs in at about 1600lbs. I want this project have greater weight to power than the 356. My thinking is that I need to get to around 160hp at the wheels.

I'm just trying to land on a known and successful build spec - thus far its hard to get this info with any level of detail. It seems like this 2270 with headers, better heads and a hotter cam should do it. I'm just trying to find out the details of what others have used successfully.

Best,

Alex
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VaccaRabite
post Oct 18 2014, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE(lexatola @ Oct 18 2014, 06:00 PM) *

Thanks again for the continued activity. I like torque but I also like high revving HP. I have an Emory 356 that puts out about 120hp at the wheels and weighs in at about 1600lbs. I want this project have greater weight to power than the 356. My thinking is that I need to get to around 160hp at the wheels.


Go WRX or Porsche 6 then IMO.

At that point you have reached the end of what a T4 can do as a street motor with much in the way of reliability.

For that kind of power, assuming you want it drive able in places other then race tracks, the 4 is going to be spendy.

WRX engines are cheap, get you 225 - 270+ HP at the crank (depending on engine type and build), and enough people have done the swap now that its not re-creating the wheel to do it.

Porsche 6 will be ++ spendy since you will want a 3.0 to get your target and still be drive able. All the parts are out there, and folks have been doing this since the 914 came about.

What ever conversion you do, don't plan on getting the money out of it that you put in.

Zach
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rmdinmd
post Oct 19 2014, 06:38 AM
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[quote name='Mark Henry' date='Oct 18 2014, 06:38 PM' post='2099575']
[quote name='Hank914' post='2099544' date='Oct 18 2014, 04:13 PM']


To me you have a choice ...heat or in your case about 10 extra hp, or the extreme of swapping exchangers and headers 2X year. Tangerine did have a heat box option at one time you could see if he still does.

The only thing that works electrically is heated seats, the heaters are total crap.
A gas heater is a do-able option but it costs and is a lot of work.
[/quote]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I got the tangerine heater box. it works, but mainly to defog the window. It does take the chill off nicely on cool days and nights but not when it is cold. I have been thinking about adding an oil cooler and using that as a heat exchanger (another member suggested that as an option.). I also plan on the heated seats when I redo the seats.
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