I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on the 2270 engine kit from the Type 4 store. I'm curious if anyone knows what the difference between the kit and the Raby 2270 SR. I see they each have different HP specs. Do we think this is an actual difference or just a difference in written spec? Same cam? Same Heads? Curious if this kit can make better HP than 140? Headers? Other tested and ordained cam?

I'd appreciate any input based on experience,

Best,

Alex

Different engines built to different specs using different parts.
I've never heard a bad thing about the 2270 kit engine and I want to build one some day. At this rate that day won't be until my 2 year old is in college, but it's good to have goals.

Zach

I was not aware that they started selling engine kits again

McMark.

They are. Looking around that store is like surfing engine porn! You just sit there and dream about how you would be all over that!

Type4store is now run (sold to I assume) by LN Engineering, Charles has his act together so service should be top notch.

The kits would be based on Raby combos for now. I imagine Len would still be doing the heads.

You are correct, the type 4 store is now owned by LN engineering.
They are selling parts and engine kits, Raby is only doing turn key engines now.

McMark however will still build you anything you want.

Thanks all for the confirmation that we think the kit is made up of some different components than the turnkey motors. I'm just trying to sort out the best path. Seems like if you take a 2.0 add headers, twin carbs and a hotter cam that this would get things up to 125hp or so. The kit feels like a lot of investment for another 15HP. I'm wondering if the kit can be pumped up by a yet hotter cam and with headers? Is there 160hp in the kit there to be extracted? Any experience with this? I'm assuming that the key difference between the kit and turn key is cam and heads?


Thanks,

Alex

I find that looking at the HP numbers is just confusing. It gives the wrong impression. Especially considering that most around town driving is more about torque than HP.

A 1.7 is fine.
A 2.0 is good.
A 2056 is fun.
A 2270 is great.

Beyond that a kit means you accept some risk and you have to know what you're doing. You're not buying an engine, you're buying parts.

A longblock motor means your buying something built by someone who's been down that road more than a few times. You're buying a shortcut as well. Instead of spending 20-30 hours building a motor (how many weekends or evenings is that?) you can skip that part and get something that just needs to be installed. Then you need to tune and adjust the motor.

A turnkey motor is the quickest route to getting running, but costs the most. A turnkey has been tuned and should be ready to just install and then turn they key.

You're decision should be based on the money/time equation, in my opinion. Secondarily would be to buy as much motor as you can afford.

140hp isn't hard to achieve in a 2056.

It's possible to reach 180 streetable hp in a 2270 with the right components.
I have one in a customer 914 here right now.
It wasn't built using one of the Type 4 Store kits but the builder copied their parts combination to the best of his ability.
However, that specific combination may not be one of the kits offered at this time.

I believe the output numbers on the Type 4 Store listings are conservatively based on the builder not having a tuned header.
I also think some of the specific parts info may be transposed between two kit listings, adding some confusion.

Exponential power to price curve. Pick your sweet spot, and buy the insurance of having someone who knows what they are doing put it together. Send a core to mark, have him build it, drive the car down for a long weekend with the wife, drive it home (break in) change the oil when you get home any you are good to go. I plan to do this some day.

A header is the cheapest boost in HP and it's a bolt on. Stock it will give you about 10% and on a 2270 as much as 20% increase in HP.
No other single mod will give you that for the same coin.



I'd say you're a tad low on that build time estimate.... or at least not counting a few steps.

What is there for a slight bump in HP if you want to keep your 1.7 with existing dual Dell's, and you want economy and longevity of engine life as the main factor, with performance secondary?

It seems there is lots of info on 2.0 upgrades/conversions, but not much for the 1.7. I suspect it's because people want to get away from the 1.7 as fast as possible, not unlike the side shift upgrades away from the tails.

But what's a 1.7L person to do, other than run away?

Like I said.... header.
It's a bolt on.

The only time HP # means anything is when your foot is all the way to the floor and the engine is at redline. Unless they've started allowing Internet access from jail, I doubt that's the way you drive.

The 2270 is very driveable. Lots less shifting than the stock motor because of the torque. There's power everywhere so you just put your foot down and pass...
The 2056 is in my opinion, the best all round motor for the 914 4 crowd. It costs less to build and creates a reliable and enjoyable jump in power and torque.
The real power in these motors is found in the heads. I doubt the stated 140HP includes Len Hoffman and Jake Raby's LE200 heads that could and probably would add 40-50HP to that number.
If you're not willing to spend the money for the 2270 with LE Series heads, build a 2056...

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I saw that. I should have asked the question that popped into my head: Since this is a daily driver in Cali-Oregon Cascades, I regularly drive in sub-freezing (and occasional sub-zero) temps, what does a header do to the heat exchange? Or more specifically, are there any headers with exchangers built in? What are the heat options with headers? And finally, are there any electrical heater options that could plug into the cig lighter or direct wire?

To me you have a choice ...heat or in your case about 10 extra hp, or the extreme of swapping exchangers and headers 2X year. Tangerine did have a heat box option at one time you could see if he still does.

The only thing that works electrically is heated seats, the heaters are total crap.
A gas heater is a do-able option but it costs and is a lot of work.

Thanks again for the continued activity. I like torque but I also like high revving HP. I have an Emory 356 that puts out about 120hp at the wheels and weighs in at about 1600lbs. I want this project have greater weight to power than the 356. My thinking is that I need to get to around 160hp at the wheels.

I'm just trying to land on a known and successful build spec - thus far its hard to get this info with any level of detail. It seems like this 2270 with headers, better heads and a hotter cam should do it. I'm just trying to find out the details of what others have used successfully.

Best,

Alex

Go WRX or Porsche 6 then IMO.

At that point you have reached the end of what a T4 can do as a street motor with much in the way of reliability.

For that kind of power, assuming you want it drive able in places other then race tracks, the 4 is going to be spendy.

WRX engines are cheap, get you 225 - 270+ HP at the crank (depending on engine type and build), and enough people have done the swap now that its not re-creating the wheel to do it.

Porsche 6 will be ++ spendy since you will want a 3.0 to get your target and still be drive able. All the parts are out there, and folks have been doing this since the 914 came about.

What ever conversion you do, don't plan on getting the money out of it that you put in.

Zach

[quote name='Mark Henry' date='Oct 18 2014, 06:38 PM' post='2099575']
[quote name='Hank914' post='2099544' date='Oct 18 2014, 04:13 PM']


To me you have a choice ...heat or in your case about 10 extra hp, or the extreme of swapping exchangers and headers 2X year. Tangerine did have a heat box option at one time you could see if he still does.

The only thing that works electrically is heated seats, the heaters are total crap.
A gas heater is a do-able option but it costs and is a lot of work.
[/quote]



I got the tangerine heater box. it works, but mainly to defog the window. It does take the chill off nicely on cool days and nights but not when it is cold. I have been thinking about adding an oil cooler and using that as a heat exchanger (another member suggested that as an option.). I also plan on the heated seats when I redo the seats.

Ask the Emory team, they know.
Also talk with FAT performance, and Jake Raby for a motor ready to bolt in.

Again this has been done/tried and it isn't very effective as a heater. It's not like a water cooled heat system. The oil cooler doesn't put out large BTU's and when cold it is bypassed till the engine is at temp, then the cooler becomes too efficient and the engine isn't reaching correct operating temps.

Heating has always been the Achilles heel of the aircooled engine, anything you you can think of has been tried before, do a search. Heat exchangers and fuel fired heaters have been the only effective solutions to date.

I've had a note on my whiteboard for more than a year now.
It says "DS Heat Exchanger".
A customer built his own driver side heater box on one of my headers and then sent me his patterns.
I had planned to modify them for easier production but haven't found time to do the development yet.

Another customer sent me his oil cooler heat exchanger design but I never pursued that idea.

He's pretty much exzachry right. I would go Suby 4 cyl 2.5 NA @165 ft lb's torque or Suby 6 cyl EZ30 series. The Turbo is a kick in the pants but a lot of extra plumbing/tuning issues. Plus the 6 is sweet music to the ears! If you stay 4 cyl the suspension can remain as it is. You'd need to beef it up a bit with a 6. But once your water cooled you have an unlimited source of heat and electrical. My 6 came with a 175amp Alt. Electric seats are the best $45 I've spent thus far but I'm not sure if the stock type 4 alt will handle those if your running lights are on??

When I sold the Type 4 Store to LN I also sold them all the engine kit combinations and I reconfigured them to be easier to assemble and tune. This was done to aid Charles and the team in regard to supporting the kits.

None of the kits that are sold are configured the same as my turn key engines. I use different combinations and I custom build each engine. The 2270 SR is just a base combination, when I consult with a buyer I will generally alter the combination to better fit their operating environment, and application, as well as the cooling system being used, type of fuel thats available int he area and about 15 other variables that is found on my order spreadsheet, all of which can change cam, head and other sub- system requirements.

LN has done very well continuing what I started with the Type 4 Store, and taking it to the next level, that I had no desire to do. Getting rid of the burden of the store has freed up all my resources to be used for R&D and engine building, which is where my passions always have been. I took the area where the store used to be and added 4 more engine assembly stations and another clean room, which has helped us reduce delivery times from one year, down to around 5-6 months for turn key engines.

Now, I have fun again, without any retail purchasers.



Here's my Raby Typ456 Outlaw, built from a 64C. It makes 185 at the wheels and isn't conventional. Weighs around 1520 with lexan windows and most other lightweight goodies. It was a SCCA/VSCCA race car for 40 years and its just as light now, as it was then, maybe a little lighter since I pulled the cage out of it when akin it into my street car again.

Click to view attachment

Please do a thread on that car Jake....
I would love to see all the finished pics.

Damn! That thing looks like it would bite if you got too close.

I've kept the car under wraps. I've decided to enjoy my things and not worry about showing them off, doing so just paints a big target on your back and takes all the fun out of it when you are in my shoes.

Its never been to an event, and more than likely never will.

Here's my Outlaw.....Just for fun!Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

I have to say, being brand spanking new to the 914 world, but not new at all to all things Porsche, that I've never had such a challenge dipping into the well spring of experienced builders, racers, drivers and owners to get the details of tied and true solutions and sources. In both the 911 and 356 worlds it would take you all of one evening on the forums to figure out all the details of virtually any build you wanted to pursue. Clearly, the artistry of actually doing the build is another thing, but figuring out what the community has tried and likes and what the details are to get there has been really challenging. I think I'm cranky tonight

The to give you more to think about.
The Type 4 motor is not nearly as popular as the type 1 motor, so you won't see as much data on what do do with the motor, secrets of builds etc.

The key to any of these motors is to make them more efficient as air pumps.
these type 4 motors can be made to put out a lot more real torque than a type 1 , so if you are driving it around town, using it for an occasional autocross, showing the car etc....those are some of the goal you need to share to get a more refined answer.

There are many opinions on what type of build to do, what size etc...
Once you wrap your head around your goals, you have options to consider.
Build a stock motor
Build a hopped up stock motor for vintage racing ( a very specific set of rules needs to be followed)
Build a large type 4 motor (all large type 4 motors creat compromises that you need to decide....longevity, target rpm range etc)
Build a high revving race motor that sucks on the street
Put in a six cylinder motor.

So, you wnt find as much information, but you will find it if you ask informed questions, and you ask the right sources.

Look at shoptalk forums
Look at pelican
Look more here

Talk to builders
AJ Simms
FAT performance
Jake Raby
Emory Brothers ( who do know, they just don't talk about type 4 too much)

In the end, these 4 cylinder aircooled motors share a lot of characteristics, so better flowing heads, more aggressive camshaft, larger stroke....reall the same as any gasoline engine...

For specific camshaft suggestions, ask Web Cam, there are others.

Be specific with your questions, and you will get answers.

What is the purpose of the car?
Race, show, or street?
4 cylinder a must or are you considering a 6 cylinder?
Do you want to build the motor, or buy a bolt in motor?
All of that will get you past the first set of questions to learn more.

Rich

Another factor is that the 911 and 356 performance builds are relatively common. The 911 because there have been a whole lot of them made over the years; the 356 because they've been around just about forever, and they have significant commonality with the Type I that was made by the millions. And quite a number of places have built each of those, making information easier to come by.

The real 914 performance builds are much less common, and have only been done by a handful of people. Some of them (read that: Jake) have put a lot of time, effort, and money into developing combinations that really work well together. They expect to be compensated for that, so they charge for the information. They have also had people read up on all the information they could find on those motors in public, and copy them. So they are doubly shy of publishing the "recipe" for their motors, because they know people will rip off their hard work.

Yeah, I'd like it if I could just stop into the forum and find the "magic recipe" that would let me build a 180 HP 2.2 liter motor in my garage. But I'd be pretty unhappy if people like Jake stopped doing research into the Type IV because they couldn't make any money because nobody will buy their 200+ HP 2.3 liter Type IVs.

--DD

And if you install an engine manufactured by another car maker, you'll need to appropriately alter the emblem-lettering on the lid above the engine too.

Put in a rice-burning WRX motor? Then replace the emblem's ending "E" with "ARU"

Put in a fuel-chugging Chevy V-6? Then the "E" ought to be replaced with "EV" or "ETTE"

Went with a spinach-burning Ford-Power V-8? Then swap out the "E" with "ORD"

Etc...
And prepare to stop telling people that you drive a Porsche

OMG! you mean it's Not A Real Porsche!!!!

Crap....may as well put a VW engine in it...

Exactly right. In that context how can you continue to call it a Porsche? Look at your door tag, which unless you have a six will say "Volkswagenwerke AG." Then look at all the VW stamps on the engine. With that in mind if you continue to believe that the providence of the engine dictates what you call the car then you are indeed gonna need to re-think a few things.

OR... you can accept that there've been some blurred lines in your car's past so you may not be sure who the daddy was, but you love it just the same.

That's it. I'm joining the 924 club!

but that's just an Audi engine...still not a real Porsche

People want to be "builders", but they want someone to tell them exactly how to do it.. Builders are just that, their thoughts and theories are applied to make what they build have its own character.

I've always made anyone who assumes the role of engine builder feel and see exactly what I do. Builders are either heroes, or zeros and anyone not willing to accept the latter, and believes that only the former will exist, should just buy an engine.

Thats one of the main reasons I sold the store to LN, people thought that just because they bought ports from us that we were mandated to assist them. My blood pressure is way down after getting rid of the store, and I haven't thrown any parts through the wall since then, either. I've moved the sale of all components that we develop through distributors, and major wholesalers. Its even better when no one knew who developed the product, and thats where I am moving now.

One reason I never cared about the 911 stuff is that its always been a little too generic, as of late I see more and more people that are bored with that, so my current build is a first year 930 Turbo, next build after that will likely be a 959 engine.

Lot's of great perspectives added to the subject. So here is what I'm trying to achieve. The car will be a street car and it will stay narrow bodied. It will be upgraded to 911 suspension, 5 lug, etc. My other cars are high revvers and so I'm actually excited about having this car more torque oriented. My deal with the projects that I take on is that I try to find ways to make the cars desirable and cool but still be very period correct and collectable. I do look long and hard for ways to achieve this cost effectively. As we all know the last 10% can cost as much as the first 90% of a restoration so I come at these projects with a bang for the buck perspective not a perfectionist's perspective. So honestly what I've been trying to figure out, like I have in other areas of Porsche work, is what is the sweetspot for a motor that will add excitement to the car, be reliable but also be very affordable. I'd love to spend $15k on a motor build (and just have for another project) but honestly can't justify that on this project. What I want to do is to take the 1.8 with 40 webers that came with this car and put a spec together that is easy and reliable. What I'm hoping to learn, as an example, is something like this:

1.8 case
Weber IDF 40s
96mm Cylinders AA
96 pistons JE (22 or 24?)
Crank??/Journals??
Rods?
Cam - webcam model xx?
Headers?
1.8 heads machined by whom and to what specs?

I know that its not in Jake's interest to share his refined specs and I wouldn't expect him to but I have to think that there are others out there who have had experience building motors with combinations of these various commonly available parts. Ideally, I'd like to find a combo of crank/journals and rods that don't require a bunch of shimming or machining in order to work or deliever the correct C/R. There must be a combo between AA/Scat/Aircooled.net stuff that just works and when combined with a good cam and good head work will deliver strong performance...I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel or come up with the worlds best Type 4 motor, just trying to find an affordable path towards a tried and true solution that provides exciting performance and reliability.

Any additional info would be much appreciated...

Best,

Alex

Unless you are stroking it stick with the stock rods and crank
Cam I like the WEB 163/86b
You have to do CR and shims, no way around that.

The "easy" builds won't get you to your 160HP at the wheels. But will teach you a ton about building engines, and can be done without hemmorging cash.

If you want to use webber 40s you will be building a 1911, 2056, or maybe a 2270.

A 2056 is 96mm pistons and a stock 2.0 crank. Power for this engines varies from 115-140+ (crank) depending how long you want the engine to last. ~120 with a flat torque curve really wakes up a 914 and is easily builable.

A 1911 is 96mm pistons and a stock 1.7/1.8 crank (which you already have). "Power" is similar to the 2056, but you have to rev more for it.

2270 uses 96mm pistons and a stroker crank (either from EMW or the Type 4 Store). Can make 140 to 200+ HP and equal torque figures. Awesome engine. Heat becomes more of an issue, especially if you use cast iron cylinders.... Bring money (lots).

Power (and heat - which is a big deal with an air cooled engine) will come from what cam you use, what CR you use, and how well you can tune it.

If you have access to a dtock DJet system, use it. Joe Sayre (member here) dynoed at 120+hp (crank, not wheels) from a 2056 on DJET.

In my car I have a 2056, made with parts from Jakes old store. I never got the tune right with carbs. Made a lot of power with a stock redline, but would get into heat problems on the freeway in the long PA hills. I rebuilt the heads and I'm in the process of going EFI to try and tune out the heat. I have never dynoed the engine, but in second and third gear it would push me back in my set while climbing some of the backroad hills around my home.

Again, if you are set on 160 at the wheels, go Suby. And you are going to need more tire and brakes as well.

Also, and this is ONLY my opinion. Don't use AA pistons or cylinders. I know lots of people do, and do without issue. But I think you are better served getting stock 2.0 cylinders punched out and using the 96mm Keith Black pistons (again, T4 Store or EMW).

That said, I'm an idiot that decided to tear his engine apart as soon sa I get it running in order to fix minor stuff and try things that are new. But I have learend a lot in the process. And I already have ideas about the next time I pull it apart (and I have not even gotten it back on the road from the last time I pulled it apart.... as I said, I'm an idiot. Best of not paying any attention to me....)

Zach

40 IDFs won't get you to 180 hp without lots of work.
44s, no problem.

Don't use AA cylinders and JE pistons together IMO.
Don't use cast pistons for a high output combo.

Lex, you should take the short trek to gig harbor on Saturday for breakfast. You'll get plenty of opinions. Bring the 356.

I would have been one year ahead with my build if I had known just the few gems of info above.

And a trick I learned too late: Make a google doc "914 logbook" for me and WRITE EVERYTHING DOWN!
I use the google docs because I can cut & paste pictures, diagrams, and links.
Then it is all available on my cell phone for access in the garage.

103mm pistons and cylinders (use forged Pistons, JE are my preference)
46/38 valves on ported head from either mew, headflowmasters, or Len
78 mm DPR crankshaft
Rods could be Carrillo, pauter or redone rabbit rods
44/48 mm webers, take your pick, or djet.

With carbs, 160 is achievable
With djet, maybe 140/150 at the crank.

Rich

Absolutely. Split duration, originally recommended to me by John of Aircoled.net for my very last ever aircooled engine, a 2270, and it was good. Needs serious heads and exhaust, but you knew that already.


Actually while they're offset grinding the main journals for stroke DPR can also resize the rod journals to T1 size. Then you can choose from any of the hundreds of T1 I or H-beam rods in whatever length you like. Lightweight, cheaper than T4 from Carillo or Pauter, and more than strong enough.

If torque is more important than HP, then make a compromise. The 160HP mark is easy to attain with off the shel available parts, even heads. Beyond that, things change.

If you want torque, I'd settle on a 9:1 2270 with the Web 163/86B (My version has T4 Store part #9500 and it is set up for a 78mm crank if you clearance 1.5 gr off each big end corner of the T4 Store rods) and RS+ T4 Store heads. There's a kit that the store has thats similar to that, and you get it all without guesswork.

My builds are getting bigger through development and better, too. I have moved toward a 2.4L combo for my engine program to take the pace of the 2270 for the future. With each of these making over 200HP, and having LN Nickies as standard, its easier to justify the added costs that occur each and every year. Instead of having a bunch of different engines that fit all the applications, I have worked toward a single engine offering that will do everything, in every application. Thats been a challenge.