Type 4 Store 2270, Type 4 Store 2270 Options

[r_towle]

Thanks again for the continued activity. I like torque but I also like high revving HP. I have an Emory 356 that puts out about 120hp at the wheels and weighs in at about 1600lbs. I want this project have greater weight to power than the 356. My thinking is that I need to get to around 160hp at the wheels.

I'm just trying to land on a known and successful build spec - thus far its hard to get this info with any level of detail. It seems like this 2270 with headers, better heads and a hotter cam should do it. I'm just trying to find out the details of what others have used successfully.

Best,

Alex

Ask the Emory team, they know.
Also talk with FAT performance, and Jake Raby for a motor ready to bolt in.

[Mark Henry]

I have been thinking about adding an oil cooler and using that as a heat exchanger (another member suggested that as an option).

Again this has been done/tried and it isn't very effective as a heater. It's not like a water cooled heat system. The oil cooler doesn't put out large BTU's and when cold it is bypassed till the engine is at temp, then the cooler becomes too efficient and the engine isn't reaching correct operating temps.

Heating has always been the Achilles heel of the aircooled engine, anything you you can think of has been tried before, do a search. Heat exchangers and fuel fired heaters have been the only effective solutions to date.

[ChrisFoley]

Heat exchangers and fuel fired heaters have been the only effective solutions to date.

I've had a note on my whiteboard for more than a year now.
It says "DS Heat Exchanger".
A customer built his own driver side heater box on one of my headers and then sent me his patterns.
I had planned to modify them for easier production but haven't found time to do the development yet.

Another customer sent me his oil cooler heat exchanger design but I never pursued that idea.

[type47]

Seems like if you take a 2.0 add headers, twin carbs and a hotter cam, use 96mm pistons and cylinders that this would get things up to ...

[76-914]

Thanks again for the continued activity. I like torque but I also like high revving HP. I have an Emory 356 that puts out about 120hp at the wheels and weighs in at about 1600lbs. I want this project have greater weight to power than the 356. My thinking is that I need to get to around 160hp at the wheels.

Go WRX or Porsche 6 then IMO.

At that point you have reached the end of what a T4 can do as a street motor with much in the way of reliability.

For that kind of power, assuming you want it drive able in places other then race tracks, the 4 is going to be spendy.

WRX engines are cheap, get you 225 - 270+ HP at the crank (depending on engine type and build), and enough people have done the swap now that its not re-creating the wheel to do it.

Porsche 6 will be ++ spendy since you will want a 3.0 to get your target and still be drive able. All the parts are out there, and folks have been doing this since the 914 came about.

What ever conversion you do, don't plan on getting the money out of it that you put in.

Zach

He's pretty much exzachry right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif) I would go Suby 4 cyl 2.5 NA @165 ft lb's torque or Suby 6 cyl EZ30 series. The Turbo is a kick in the pants but a lot of extra plumbing/tuning issues. Plus the 6 is sweet music to the ears! If you stay 4 cyl the suspension can remain as it is. You'd need to beef it up a bit with a 6. But once your water cooled you have an unlimited source of heat and electrical. My 6 came with a 175amp Alt. Electric seats are the best $45 I've spent thus far but I'm not sure if the stock type 4 alt will handle those if your running lights are on?? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Jake Raby]

I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on the 2270 engine kit from the Type 4 store. I'm curious if anyone knows what the difference between the kit and the Raby 2270 SR. I see they each have different HP specs. Do we think this is an actual difference or just a difference in written spec? Same cam? Same Heads? Curious if this kit can make better HP than 140? Headers? Other tested and ordained cam?

I'd appreciate any input based on experience,

Best,

Alex

When I sold the Type 4 Store to LN I also sold them all the engine kit combinations and I reconfigured them to be easier to assemble and tune. This was done to aid Charles and the team in regard to supporting the kits.

None of the kits that are sold are configured the same as my turn key engines. I use different combinations and I custom build each engine. The 2270 SR is just a base combination, when I consult with a buyer I will generally alter the combination to better fit their operating environment, and application, as well as the cooling system being used, type of fuel thats available int he area and about 15 other variables that is found on my order spreadsheet, all of which can change cam, head and other sub- system requirements.

LN has done very well continuing what I started with the Type 4 Store, and taking it to the next level, that I had no desire to do. Getting rid of the burden of the store has freed up all my resources to be used for R&D and engine building, which is where my passions always have been. I took the area where the store used to be and added 4 more engine assembly stations and another clean room, which has helped us reduce delivery times from one year, down to around 5-6 months for turn key engines.

Now, I have fun again, without any retail purchasers.

I have an Emory 356 that puts out about 120hp at the wheels and weighs in at about 1600lbs.

Here's my Raby Typ456 Outlaw, built from a 64C. It makes 185 at the wheels and isn't conventional. Weighs around 1520 with lexan windows and most other lightweight goodies. It was a SCCA/VSCCA race car for 40 years and its just as light now, as it was then, maybe a little lighter since I pulled the cage out of it when akin it into my street car again.

[r_towle]

Please do a thread on that car Jake....
I would love to see all the finished pics.

[KELTY360]

I'm getting close to pulling the trigger on the 2270 engine kit from the Type 4 store. I'm curious if anyone knows what the difference between the kit and the Raby 2270 SR. I see they each have different HP specs. Do we think this is an actual difference or just a difference in written spec? Same cam? Same Heads? Curious if this kit can make better HP than 140? Headers? Other tested and ordained cam?

I'd appreciate any input based on experience,

Best,

Alex

When I sold the Type 4 Store to LN I also sold them all the engine kit combinations and I reconfigured them to be easier to assemble and tune. This was done to aid Charles and the team in regard to supporting the kits.

None of the kits that are sold are configured the same as my turn key engines. I use different combinations and I custom build each engine. The 2270 SR is just a base combination, when I consult with a buyer I will generally alter the combination to better fit their operating environment, and application, as well as the cooling system being used, type of fuel thats available int he area and about 15 other variables that is found on my order spreadsheet, all of which can change cam, head and other sub- system requirements.

LN has done very well continuing what I started with the Type 4 Store, and taking it to the next level, that I had no desire to do. Getting rid of the burden of the store has freed up all my resources to be used for R&D and engine building, which is where my passions always have been. I took the area where the store used to be and added 4 more engine assembly stations and another clean room, which has helped us reduce delivery times from one year, down to around 5-6 months for turn key engines.

Now, I have fun again, without any retail purchasers.

I have an Emory 356 that puts out about 120hp at the wheels and weighs in at about 1600lbs.

Here's my Raby Typ456 Outlaw, built from a 64C. It makes 185 at the wheels and isn't conventional. Weighs around 1520 with lexan windows and most other lightweight goodies. It was a SCCA/VSCCA race car for 40 years and its just as light now, as it was then, maybe a little lighter since I pulled the cage out of it when akin it into my street car again.

Damn! That thing looks like it would bite if you got too close.

[Jake Raby]

Please do a thread on that car Jake....
I would love to see all the finished pics.

I've kept the car under wraps. I've decided to enjoy my things and not worry about showing them off, doing so just paints a big target on your back and takes all the fun out of it when you are in my shoes.

Its never been to an event, and more than likely never will.

[lexatola]

Here's my Outlaw.....Just for fun!

[lexatola]

I have to say, being brand spanking new to the 914 world, but not new at all to all things Porsche, that I've never had such a challenge dipping into the well spring of experienced builders, racers, drivers and owners to get the details of tied and true solutions and sources. In both the 911 and 356 worlds it would take you all of one evening on the forums to figure out all the details of virtually any build you wanted to pursue. Clearly, the artistry of actually doing the build is another thing, but figuring out what the community has tried and likes and what the details are to get there has been really challenging. I think I'm cranky tonight (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[McMark]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[r_towle]

Thanks all for the confirmation that we think the kit is made up of some different components than the turnkey motors. I'm just trying to sort out the best path. Seems like if you take a 2.0 add headers, twin carbs and a hotter cam that this would get things up to 125hp or so. The kit feels like a lot of investment for another 15HP. I'm wondering if the kit can be pumped up by a yet hotter cam and with headers? Is there 160hp in the kit there to be extracted? Any experience with this? I'm assuming that the key difference between the kit and turn key is cam and heads?


Thanks,

Alex

The to give you more to think about.
The Type 4 motor is not nearly as popular as the type 1 motor, so you won't see as much data on what do do with the motor, secrets of builds etc.

The key to any of these motors is to make them more efficient as air pumps.
these type 4 motors can be made to put out a lot more real torque than a type 1 , so if you are driving it around town, using it for an occasional autocross, showing the car etc....those are some of the goal you need to share to get a more refined answer.

There are many opinions on what type of build to do, what size etc...
Once you wrap your head around your goals, you have options to consider.
Build a stock motor
Build a hopped up stock motor for vintage racing ( a very specific set of rules needs to be followed)
Build a large type 4 motor (all large type 4 motors creat compromises that you need to decide....longevity, target rpm range etc)
Build a high revving race motor that sucks on the street
Put in a six cylinder motor.

So, you wnt find as much information, but you will find it if you ask informed questions, and you ask the right sources.

Look at shoptalk forums
Look at pelican
Look more here

Talk to builders
AJ Simms
FAT performance
Jake Raby
Emory Brothers ( who do know, they just don't talk about type 4 too much)

In the end, these 4 cylinder aircooled motors share a lot of characteristics, so better flowing heads, more aggressive camshaft, larger stroke....reall the same as any gasoline engine...

For specific camshaft suggestions, ask Web Cam, there are others.

Be specific with your questions, and you will get answers.

What is the purpose of the car?
Race, show, or street?
4 cylinder a must or are you considering a 6 cylinder?
Do you want to build the motor, or buy a bolt in motor?
All of that will get you past the first set of questions to learn more.

Rich

[Dave_Darling]

Another factor is that the 911 and 356 performance builds are relatively common. The 911 because there have been a whole lot of them made over the years; the 356 because they've been around just about forever, and they have significant commonality with the Type I that was made by the millions. And quite a number of places have built each of those, making information easier to come by.

The real 914 performance builds are much less common, and have only been done by a handful of people. Some of them (read that: Jake) have put a lot of time, effort, and money into developing combinations that really work well together. They expect to be compensated for that, so they charge for the information. They have also had people read up on all the information they could find on those motors in public, and copy them. So they are doubly shy of publishing the "recipe" for their motors, because they know people will rip off their hard work.

Yeah, I'd like it if I could just stop into the forum and find the "magic recipe" that would let me build a 180 HP 2.2 liter motor in my garage. But I'd be pretty unhappy if people like Jake stopped doing research into the Type IV because they couldn't make any money because nobody will buy their 200+ HP 2.3 liter Type IVs.

--DD

[SchwarzHorse]

And if you install an engine manufactured by another car maker, you'll need to appropriately alter the emblem-lettering on the lid above the engine too.

Put in a rice-burning WRX motor? Then replace the emblem's ending "E" with "ARU"

Put in a fuel-chugging Chevy V-6? Then the "E" ought to be replaced with "EV" or "ETTE"

Went with a spinach-burning Ford-Power V-8? Then swap out the "E" with "ORD"

Etc...
And prepare to stop telling people that you drive a Porsche (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

[Mark Henry]

And if you install an engine manufactured by another car maker, you'll need to appropriately alter the emblem-lettering on the lid above the engine too.

Put in a rice-burning WRX motor? Then replace the emblem's ending "E" with "ARU"

Put in a fuel-chugging Chevy V-6? Then the "E" ought to be replaced with "EV" or "ETTE"

Went with a spinach-burning Ford-Power V-8? Then swap out the "E" with "ORD"

Etc...
And prepare to stop telling people that you drive a Porsche (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

OMG! you mean it's Not A Real Porsche!!!!

Crap....may as well put a VW engine in it...

[DBCooper]

And prepare to stop telling people that you drive a Porsche (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slap.gif)

Exactly right. In that context how can you continue to call it a Porsche? Look at your door tag, which unless you have a six will say "Volkswagenwerke AG." Then look at all the VW stamps on the engine. With that in mind if you continue to believe that the providence of the engine dictates what you call the car then you are indeed gonna need to re-think a few things.

OR... you can accept that there've been some blurred lines in your car's past so you may not be sure who the daddy was, but you love it just the same.

[EdwardBlume]

That's it. I'm joining the 924 club!

[mr2by4]

That's it. I'm joining the 924 club!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[biosurfer1]

That's it. I'm joining the 924 club!

but that's just an Audi engine...still not a real Porsche (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)