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> Type 4 Store 2270, Type 4 Store 2270
Jake Raby
post Oct 21 2014, 10:56 PM
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People want to be "builders", but they want someone to tell them exactly how to do it.. Builders are just that, their thoughts and theories are applied to make what they build have its own character.

I've always made anyone who assumes the role of engine builder feel and see exactly what I do. Builders are either heroes, or zeros and anyone not willing to accept the latter, and believes that only the former will exist, should just buy an engine.

Thats one of the main reasons I sold the store to LN, people thought that just because they bought ports from us that we were mandated to assist them. My blood pressure is way down after getting rid of the store, and I haven't thrown any parts through the wall since then, either. I've moved the sale of all components that we develop through distributors, and major wholesalers. Its even better when no one knew who developed the product, and thats where I am moving now.

One reason I never cared about the 911 stuff is that its always been a little too generic, as of late I see more and more people that are bored with that, so my current build is a first year 930 Turbo, next build after that will likely be a 959 engine.
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lexatola
post Oct 22 2014, 09:23 AM
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Lot's of great perspectives added to the subject. So here is what I'm trying to achieve. The car will be a street car and it will stay narrow bodied. It will be upgraded to 911 suspension, 5 lug, etc. My other cars are high revvers and so I'm actually excited about having this car more torque oriented. My deal with the projects that I take on is that I try to find ways to make the cars desirable and cool but still be very period correct and collectable. I do look long and hard for ways to achieve this cost effectively. As we all know the last 10% can cost as much as the first 90% of a restoration so I come at these projects with a bang for the buck perspective not a perfectionist's perspective. So honestly what I've been trying to figure out, like I have in other areas of Porsche work, is what is the sweetspot for a motor that will add excitement to the car, be reliable but also be very affordable. I'd love to spend $15k on a motor build (and just have for another project) but honestly can't justify that on this project. What I want to do is to take the 1.8 with 40 webers that came with this car and put a spec together that is easy and reliable. What I'm hoping to learn, as an example, is something like this:

1.8 case
Weber IDF 40s
96mm Cylinders AA
96 pistons JE (22 or 24?)
Crank??/Journals??
Rods?
Cam - webcam model xx?
Headers?
1.8 heads machined by whom and to what specs?

I know that its not in Jake's interest to share his refined specs and I wouldn't expect him to but I have to think that there are others out there who have had experience building motors with combinations of these various commonly available parts. Ideally, I'd like to find a combo of crank/journals and rods that don't require a bunch of shimming or machining in order to work or deliever the correct C/R. There must be a combo between AA/Scat/Aircooled.net stuff that just works and when combined with a good cam and good head work will deliver strong performance...I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel or come up with the worlds best Type 4 motor, just trying to find an affordable path towards a tried and true solution that provides exciting performance and reliability.

Any additional info would be much appreciated...

Best,

Alex
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Mark Henry
post Oct 22 2014, 09:33 AM
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Unless you are stroking it stick with the stock rods and crank
Cam I like the WEB 163/86b
You have to do CR and shims, no way around that.
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VaccaRabite
post Oct 22 2014, 11:27 AM
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The "easy" builds won't get you to your 160HP at the wheels. But will teach you a ton about building engines, and can be done without hemmorging cash.

If you want to use webber 40s you will be building a 1911, 2056, or maybe a 2270.

A 2056 is 96mm pistons and a stock 2.0 crank. Power for this engines varies from 115-140+ (crank) depending how long you want the engine to last. ~120 with a flat torque curve really wakes up a 914 and is easily builable.

A 1911 is 96mm pistons and a stock 1.7/1.8 crank (which you already have). "Power" is similar to the 2056, but you have to rev more for it.

2270 uses 96mm pistons and a stroker crank (either from EMW or the Type 4 Store). Can make 140 to 200+ HP and equal torque figures. Awesome engine. Heat becomes more of an issue, especially if you use cast iron cylinders.... Bring money (lots).

Power (and heat - which is a big deal with an air cooled engine) will come from what cam you use, what CR you use, and how well you can tune it.

If you have access to a dtock DJet system, use it. Joe Sayre (member here) dynoed at 120+hp (crank, not wheels) from a 2056 on DJET.

In my car I have a 2056, made with parts from Jakes old store. I never got the tune right with carbs. Made a lot of power with a stock redline, but would get into heat problems on the freeway in the long PA hills. I rebuilt the heads and I'm in the process of going EFI to try and tune out the heat. I have never dynoed the engine, but in second and third gear it would push me back in my set while climbing some of the backroad hills around my home.

Again, if you are set on 160 at the wheels, go Suby. And you are going to need more tire and brakes as well.

Also, and this is ONLY my opinion. Don't use AA pistons or cylinders. I know lots of people do, and do without issue. But I think you are better served getting stock 2.0 cylinders punched out and using the 96mm Keith Black pistons (again, T4 Store or EMW).

That said, I'm an idiot that decided to tear his engine apart as soon sa I get it running in order to fix minor stuff and try things that are new. But I have learend a lot in the process. And I already have ideas about the next time I pull it apart (and I have not even gotten it back on the road from the last time I pulled it apart.... as I said, I'm an idiot. Best of not paying any attention to me....)

Zach
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ChrisFoley
post Oct 22 2014, 01:40 PM
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40 IDFs won't get you to 180 hp without lots of work.
44s, no problem.

Don't use AA cylinders and JE pistons together IMO.
Don't use cast pistons for a high output combo.
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rhodyguy
post Oct 22 2014, 03:44 PM
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Chimp Sanctuary NW. Check it out.
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Lex, you should take the short trek to gig harbor on Saturday for breakfast. You'll get plenty of opinions. Bring the 356.
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stugray
post Oct 22 2014, 04:30 PM
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QUOTE(lexatola @ Oct 22 2014, 09:23 AM) *

What I'm hoping to learn, as an example, is something like this:

1.8 case - Good. Check align bore needs & "true" the deck. Check with "Jesco Reient" (on this forum) for line bore and checking crank

Weber IDF 40s - contact "ThePaintedMan" (on this forum) for rebuild/advice

96mm Cylinders AA - Contact "Euro. Motor Works" for complete kits with KB pistons
96 pistons JE (22 or 24?)
http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/

Crank??/Journals?? - Keep stock
Rods? - Stock

Cam - webcam model xx? 86b is good start and manageable on the street
http://www.webcamshafts.com/pages/automobi...691_001095.html

Headers? - Tangerine Racing. "Racer Chris" (on this forum)
http://www.tangerineracing.com/tangerineheaders.htm

1.8 heads machined by whom and to what specs? - contact HAM Inc (on this forum)
http://www.hamincgroup.com/main.php

Any additional info would be much appreciated...

Best,

Alex


I would have been one year ahead with my build if I had known just the few gems of info above.

And a trick I learned too late: Make a google doc "914 logbook" for me and WRITE EVERYTHING DOWN!
I use the google docs because I can cut & paste pictures, diagrams, and links.
Then it is all available on my cell phone for access in the garage.
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r_towle
post Oct 22 2014, 04:52 PM
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103mm pistons and cylinders (use forged Pistons, JE are my preference)
46/38 valves on ported head from either mew, headflowmasters, or Len
78 mm DPR crankshaft
Rods could be Carrillo, pauter or redone rabbit rods
44/48 mm webers, take your pick, or djet.

With carbs, 160 is achievable
With djet, maybe 140/150 at the crank.

Rich
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DBCooper
post Oct 22 2014, 05:01 PM
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QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Oct 22 2014, 08:33 AM) *

Cam I like the WEB 163/86b

Absolutely. Split duration, originally recommended to me by John of Aircoled.net for my very last ever aircooled engine, a 2270, and it was good. Needs serious heads and exhaust, but you knew that already.

QUOTE(r_towle @ Oct 22 2014, 03:52 PM) *

Rods could be Carrillo, pauter or redone rabbit rods
44/48 mm webers, take your pick, or djet.

Actually while they're offset grinding the main journals for stroke DPR can also resize the rod journals to T1 size. Then you can choose from any of the hundreds of T1 I or H-beam rods in whatever length you like. Lightweight, cheaper than T4 from Carillo or Pauter, and more than strong enough.

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Jake Raby
post Oct 22 2014, 06:21 PM
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If torque is more important than HP, then make a compromise. The 160HP mark is easy to attain with off the shel available parts, even heads. Beyond that, things change.

If you want torque, I'd settle on a 9:1 2270 with the Web 163/86B (My version has T4 Store part #9500 and it is set up for a 78mm crank if you clearance 1.5 gr off each big end corner of the T4 Store rods) and RS+ T4 Store heads. There's a kit that the store has thats similar to that, and you get it all without guesswork.

My builds are getting bigger through development and better, too. I have moved toward a 2.4L combo for my engine program to take the pace of the 2270 for the future. With each of these making over 200HP, and having LN Nickies as standard, its easier to justify the added costs that occur each and every year. Instead of having a bunch of different engines that fit all the applications, I have worked toward a single engine offering that will do everything, in every application. Thats been a challenge.
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malcolm2
post Oct 22 2014, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Oct 20 2014, 09:47 AM) *





Jake did you have this car at the tail of the dragon about a month ago? I think I remember seeing some pictures of a black 356 with no bumpers the day we had a bunch of 914s up there. It caught my eye for sure and that was just a still shot. I wish I could have seen and heard it running.

Clark
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Jake Raby
post Oct 22 2014, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE(malcolm2 @ Oct 22 2014, 05:05 PM) *

QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Oct 20 2014, 09:47 AM) *





Jake did you have this car at the tail of the dragon about a month ago? I think I remember seeing some pictures of a black 356 with no bumpers the day we had a bunch of 914s up there. It caught my eye for sure and that was just a still shot. I wish I could have seen and heard it running.

Clark


No, thats another Raby powered 356 Outlaw, called the "Bad Egg". It has a 2270SS that I built a few years ago, that car has been all over doing rallies and events. I am finishing another 2270RR for the same customer, which all go into his 56 Speedster Outlaw, and its not a replica.

My 356 isn't black. Its 2012 GT3 RS "Grey- Black", which is rather unique to find on a vintage Porsche :-)
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914werke
post Oct 22 2014, 10:13 PM
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QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Oct 22 2014, 05:21 PM) *

I have moved toward a 2.4L combo for my engine program to take the place of the 2270 for the future. With each of these making over 200HP, and having LN Nickies as standard


Ok Ill bite ..your talking 2366? I thought you previously commented you felt that "combo" didnt pencil out from a cost / performance perspective?
I ask because Ive decided to embark on my own 2366 build, and yes Im using Nickies.
SOT as Im in the research stage. As with the thread originator Im defining my goals and looking into specifically Heads (LE-200's?) & what Cam is best suited. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
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Jake Raby
post Oct 22 2014, 11:13 PM
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No, the next generation combo is 82X97mm using my own version of Nickies, and pistons. With the current quality of most all other cylinder and piston kits having dropped, its time to make Nickies standard on every build. I have wanted to do this for a long, long time.

My combos with heads and cams for the next generation favor longer strokes and smaller bores for broad power, and throttle response at all RPM levels. One engine literally has to do it all, the only variable will be CR and lobe separation, which is only altered to optimize the engine for sea level or very high elevations.

It comes with a price, 20-22K is the current pricing for the next generation of engines.
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Sfreeman615
post Oct 23 2014, 09:36 AM
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I purchased the 2270 kit and heads from the type4 store and I'm so glad I did! I was almost convinced to go another route and I ended up taking the advice from many of you on here, spent more money for the LN kit, but I think it was well worth it. My car should be finished in the next month or so and I can't wait to drive it. Side note, mine was originally a 1.7L and I had to have my case line bored because the new crank was rubbing.
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