1980 24 Hours of Dayton GTU class winning 914-6, pics Options

[stownsen914]

so here are two documents that Jack sent me at one point....GTO and GTU specs.

Seems to me that I could run Papa Smurf with a 3.2 engine, no wing or splitter, in GTO. If I went to a 2.999 engine, it could be GTU.

Is that how you read it??

Yes, I took a look, and it looks that way.

I see this is SVRA. Is that who you ran with at RA? I've heard HSR may be more lenient and inclusive, but that's not based on much real info.

Scott

[naro914]

The Hawk is not really a HSR or SVRA event, its a stand alone. They 'supposedly' accept any car that fits into any vintage race organization class, then Jack sticks you where he wants to.

I was told - and I just should have shut up and listened - to "just pick what class seems reasonable and state your car meets that class". they have no way (or the time or desire) of checking things like engine displacement, transmission, etc. I was too honest...my bad!

[gms]

maybe you should look at what kind of cars are racing in group 10.
Modern Mustangs, Corvettes and 911 Cup Cars.
They will laps you every other lap, I would not consider that fun.

[naro914]

Oh, I agree...that's why I didn't want to be in Group 10!! I ended up at GTO in Group 6, with Huey... still not fun, but at least I wasn't being run off the road..

GTO and GTU were Group 6

[naro914]

so back to the original post/picture...is that #62 car running slicks or treaded tires?

[gms]

Oh, I agree...that's why I didn't want to be in Group 10!! I ended up at GTO in Group 6, with Huey... still not fun, but at least I wasn't being run off the road..

GTO and GTU were Group 6

I had a 2.2L street engine and he wanted me to run in group 10 because of the car's body work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[naro914]

Oh, I agree...that's why I didn't want to be in Group 10!! I ended up at GTO in Group 6, with Huey... still not fun, but at least I wasn't being run off the road..

GTO and GTU were Group 6

I had a 2.2L street engine and he wanted me to run in group 10 because of the car's body work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

wow...
Yeah, He was going to 'allow' me to run Group 6 with Papa Smurf if I took off the wing and splitter, and ran in class 6X - meaning 'exhibition'...no awards, no trophies. Huey was probably classed correctly in GTO, but with a street stock 3.2, it was slow going...

I went to him at the end of the weekend and said "since I have to rebuild my race engine, what can I do to make it (Papa Smurf) legal to run here in a real non-Group 10 class". He said - after degrading me and my car - "go buy a car that's got a HSR log book and is done right and looks like the other 914's out here, why is this so hard for you to understand?"
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

[stownsen914]

Sounds like some of these guys need to loosen up a little!

My ex-GTU 911 has a 3.5L in it, so I'd classify as GTO, and unfortunately, possibly Group 10? This car is pretty much exactly as raced in 1987 except the larger engine. What do you think?

[gms]

Sounds like some of these guys need to loosen up a little!

My ex-GTU 911 has a 3.5L in it, so I'd classify as GTO, and unfortunately, possibly Group 10? This car is pretty much exactly as raced in 1987 except the larger engine. What do you think?

I love it, Jack would probably hate it

[stownsen914]

I love it, Jack would probably hate it

Ha, yeah probably. I'am planning to clean up the bodywork including repairing and painting some of the panels. Is that the part he'd hate?

It's not obvious from this shot, but this is the Apcar 911 that Fred Apgar ran. I am trying to piece together the history of this car, but per Fred and also Peter Dawe, it was owned/raced by Dennis Aase prior to Fred.

[Mugs914]

This is a really sore subject with me, so I hope you'll forgive a bit of a rant... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

The people running "vintage/historic" racing these days don't seem to have any idea about, or interest in, the actual history of motor racing. If they did they would have appropriate classes for these cars. Instead, they dis-allow the wings, spoilers and flares that these cars came with and insist that they run on treaded tires. Cars from the IMSA era never ran in that configuration, but if you have one and want to race, well, you'd better do what they say.

The truth is that they have the cars and participants that they want and are not interested in having anything that doesn't slot in to the existing program. That's fine. They are allowed to run their series their way.

Where I get aggravated is when they continue to say that they welcome and are seeking race cars that are "unique and authentic", but insist on excluding certain cars if they ARE run in an authentic configuration, even if they are one of a kind. A look around the paddock at all of the over-restored, model kit looking cars will tell you that authentic/original appearance isn't insisted upon either.

This issue comes up every time we try to run the Baker 914, which is nothing if not "unique". Even at the last Rennsport (administered by HMSA), we were told that our tires were illegal (slicks) just as the five minutes was given on the grid! We were then black-flagged out of the race two laps in.

End rant...

I hope that as more of these things show up that they will become more interested in allowing them to run as designed.

I love the idea of a book to document everything about the IMSA 914s. If I can help with anything on the Baker car just give me a call!

Mike

[brant]

Guys.

I'm a Porsche eligibility tech.


It's not all that complicated.
Pick from the years of vintage rules that are accepted by the club you want to run with
Many vintage clubs have accepted 1981 now.

So as an example if scca 1981 And also Imsa 1981 are allowed then you can use the engine sizes allowed in a 914 in 1981

So a 2.0 in scca
And a 2.5 in Imsa

A 2.0/6 is more competitive in a small class than a 2.5 is against 3.0 911's
Unless your a hell of a driver with a really built motor

I believe Imsa accepted the 3.0 later than 1981 so if you have a club that only goes up to 1981 then you have to stick with 2.5l

Frank beck is running a 2.5
But I've heard as high as 300hp from it

[brant]

This is a really sore subject with me, so I hope you'll forgive a bit of a rant... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

The people running "vintage/historic" racing these days don't seem to have any idea about, or interest in, the actual history of motor racing. If they did they would have appropriate classes for these cars. Instead, they dis-allow the wings, spoilers and flares that these cars came with and insist that they run on treaded tires. Cars from the IMSA era never ran in that configuration, but if you have one and want to race, well, you'd better do what they say.

The truth is that they have the cars and participants that they want and are not interested in having anything that doesn't slot in to the existing program. That's fine. They are allowed to run their series their way.

Where I get aggravated is when they continue to say that they welcome and are seeking race cars that are "unique and authentic", but insist on excluding certain cars if they ARE run in an authentic configuration, even if they are one of a kind. A look around the paddock at all of the over-restored, model kit looking cars will tell you that authentic/original appearance isn't insisted upon either.

This issue comes up every time we try to run the Baker 914, which is nothing if not "unique". Even at the last Rennsport (administered by HMSA), we were told that our tires were illegal (slicks) just as the five minutes was given on the grid! We were then black-flagged out of the race two laps in.

End rant...

I hope that as more of these things show up that they will become more interested in allowing them to run as designed.

I love the idea of a book to document everything about the IMSA 914s. If I can help with anything on the Baker car just give me a call!

Mike

Mike.

I've run with cvar. Hmsa. Svra. And csrg in 2 months.


This is vintage racing
Their rules are as they were applied inyears past.
I don't see what is confusing.
In the 60's and 70's (even early 80's). No sanctioning body allowed a 914 to run motors that the factory didn't offer. 3.5l/911s were not being built and accepted in those days. It's old rules for old cars. Not hard to understand.

Did the baker car run those tires body work and motor combo in say 1972?

[naro914]

Brant
not to be argumentative here, I see your point, but I also understand where Mike is coming from. Let me tell you the rest of the conversation I had with Jack:

So after he finished with his "get all that crap off your car" and "we don't want shit like that around here" (referring to Papa Smurf), I said "OK, so you want it to look like that" - and I pointed to Huey. He said "even that I should have put you into Group 10". I asked why? He said "that's not what a 914 should look like. Walk around the paddock and see what they should be like, then just go buy one like that and quit trying to make it something its not" When I replied saying "yes, that IS what a 914/6 GT looked like and what they all look like here. I understand the engine is wrong, but that's why I'm coming to you and asking what I should do to make it legal", he said "get out of here and don't come back until you have a legal car. Just go buy one that has a log book and be done with it, why is this so hard for you to understand?"!!!

As Glenn can obviously attest to above, and as Mike has mentioned, the problem is that some of the Tech guys don't know what they're looking at, especially when it comes to 914's. Understandable, there are A LOT of cars to know through the years. But, if you can show that your car meets the regulations, why is there an argument? Glenn's car DID run in that configuration back then and he was harassed. I'm sure many tech directors would have issues with the car that started this thread, but there's proof that it DID run in IMSA...Jack would probably reject it...

and oh, btw...I've heard a lot about Frank Beck's car...which is FAR from legal. But..it looks the part and he's a regular so it gets rubber stamped.

[carr914]

There is no doubt that Frank Beck's car is should illegal. I had his back-up car which was stout, yet he called it a piece of shit (had a bunch of Podiums) when I attempted to talk to him about it.

[brant]

Not every club accepts Imsa
My club only adopted the Imsa through 1976 and only did that recently
If someone builds a car to 1977 specifications with modifications from 1977 then it is not allowed.

Cvar doesn't accept ImsA at all

My club doesn't accept fia at all

I had to turn down a chalon because the scca never recognized a slope nose 914 because the factory never built a slope nosed 914

I guess my point as an eligibility person, is to read the rules
I don't know if glen's club gave him grief because they do or don't accept Imsa?

But if you find a club you like. See what years and to what rules they accept that then it should work

For example. The 914 gt's were raced in Europe as an fia class
If my club doesn't accept fia then I can't race a Gt.
I knew that when I built my car and pulled my fenders without putting gt flares on my car.
It goes back to the oldest saying in the book to read the rule book
I'm sorry the guy at the hawk wAs a jerk. That's not cool. Sounds like he was frustrated and not a good steward at all

[naro914]

Hey Brant
I agree with you, if you're going to run with a local/regional vintage group and are building a car, build it to their specs. Unfortunately it many times eliminates true vintage racers, those that actually DID race back in the day, but it's their series and they can do what they want...I get that.

What I DON'T get is the big National events, like the Hawk, Indy, Daytona, Monterey that are trying to get the ACTUAL cars raced back in the day, or supposedly clones of those cars. They tell me that they will accept cars that are classed in other racing venues, but then turn around and deny them? that makes no sense...

Somehow...Huey was 'wrong' - I get it, the engine but Group 10??? - but a guy we were with had a 2012 Pontiac GTO with 450 hp and THAT was legal in Group 6? it looked like a commuter car...what the heck??

It SEEMS that it's just up to the tech director as to if they like you or not...Jack seems to not like 914's...there was another guy there that had an original Brumos 914 that raced (TC, you may know him but I can't remember his name!!) and Jack gave HIM a hard time too!!

[ThePaintedMan]

Actual pedigree trumps whatever you decide to build any day. Doesn't matter if it was run last year. For us with these cars, it means you must build the car with a very specific direction in mind. Slapping a body kit on it and a hot motor just doesn't cut it for most vintage associations so the onus is on the builder to get the rules first, then follow them to the tee. 914s have always been hot rodded from day one, which is why most vintage associations have a hard time figuring out how to class them. Think about it, the last IMSA car was running in competition all the way into the late 80s.

[mepstein]

Wasn't this an imsa car?

[URY914]

^^^yes GTU 1976