Hey all, though you might like some eye candy.
Today we had our friends 1980 IMSA 24 Hours of Daytona GTU class winning and 5th overall 914-6 at our shop (carrera6) in San Gabriel, CA
It is still in it's 1983 Sebring livery

Cool but not as cool as being there like I was in 1980...

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did that car run as a 2.5 or 3.o by then?

GTU was under 2.5 at that time.

What year did IMSA allow 914's to go 3.0?

I Actually have considered running a 2.5 IMSA classification
Was the white car at COTA ?

I don't remember that one but by the time the engine size was increased the RX7 and Toyotas were winning it all.

It was 2.8L for a while, maybe from the late 70's or so, and then 3.0L starting in the mid to late 80's. 914's aged out and were no longer legal around the late 80's, so may never have run with the 3.0L in GTU.

Scott

If I remember correctly this car has a 2.8

This is the 1983 Sebring Livery
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2.5L in the 1980 IMSA rule book
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Probably should have said it now has a 2.8

Great photo URY!......love the number and the color and the Ford Pick-Up in the backround, what year is the Econoline thingy?

Vysoc

Hi Scott, is that the car inside your hanger in Long Beach seated on the upper level of the lift?

guys
where can I find the rule book that shows what was and what is currently legal?
Glen - where did you find that rule?
Scott - do you have something that somewhere shows that a 2.8 or 3.0 was legal?

I need to make some decisions on our engine and would like to make that based on what I may be able to run in vintage racing in the future. From what I've learned (and it always seems to be a moving target) that if it was IMSA legal at some point in the past, I can run. I'd just like to have the documentation to back it up...

At the Hawk, the head of tech gave me shit for months in advance for Papa Smurf - saying things like "take all that crap off the car" and "we don't allow shit like that" referring to the wing and splitter (which I agreed to take off), slicks, fiberglass body, etc...

Bob - I just googled for a while looking for "IMSA rulebook" and wasn't finding much at first, but finally noticed that the rulebook is actually called "IMSA Code" and then found a bunch of the early and mid 80s rulebook on this website http://www.mulsannescorner.com/. Scroll to the very bottom and look for "1981 IMSA GTP chassis rules". It looks like the IMSA code/rulebook for that year for all classes including GTU. I see links for the '86, '85, and '81 ones too. Quick summary of what I see:
- In 1981 the GTU limit was 2.5L
- By 1985 the GTU limit had jumped to 3.0L. I guess 2.8L was somewhere in between there.
- The 914/6 was listed as an eligible car in all 4 years. I know it became ineligible in the late 80s, but that must have been after 1987.

I've been looking for these too, so glad I finally found them!

I believe the vintage organizations like HSR and SVRA more or less align their rules with IMSA rules with classes for different periods, and some allowances to encourage participation. It sounds like you've seen those rules already, but they're worth checking as well to make sure your car lines up well with one of their classes.

Scott

In 2011 I ran at the BRIC which was the predecessor to the Hawk. I was so insulted by Jack and his uneducated critique of my car that I have never been back to race.

I have an IMSA 914 that has the same panels, sticker and scars as when it was built and raced in the 1980s. The irony was that it was one of a few real professional race cars in attendance…as far as I can tell they are trying to make this a concours event.

Jack told me he wanted to create a "snap shoot in time" look during each race that is why my body work from the late '70s was not allowed. I looked at the entry list and there was a 1983 Porsche 944 in our run group...WTF!

I have attended the race for the past 12 years but last year topped them all when a 2010 Boss Mustang was entered in Group 8 and won against cars with engines half its size. It further ruined the race for me because Frank Beck (in a 914/6) usually wins.

As soon as I have finished with my 8 years of research about 914s in IMSA I will publish a book to correctly set allowable engines, wheels and body work for these stubborn tech guys.

OK, I must be a moron (don't agree with me!!). I am looking at the '1981 IMSA GTP Chassis Rules" book and can't find 916/6 listed.

EDIT: never mind, I found it. 11.4.8.2

so here are two documents that Jack sent me at one point....GTO and GTU specs.

Seems to me that I could run Papa Smurf with a 3.2 engine, no wing or splitter, in GTO. If I went to a 2.999 engine, it could be GTU.

Is that how you read it??

Yes, I took a look, and it looks that way.

I see this is SVRA. Is that who you ran with at RA? I've heard HSR may be more lenient and inclusive, but that's not based on much real info.

Scott

The Hawk is not really a HSR or SVRA event, its a stand alone. They 'supposedly' accept any car that fits into any vintage race organization class, then Jack sticks you where he wants to.

I was told - and I just should have shut up and listened - to "just pick what class seems reasonable and state your car meets that class". they have no way (or the time or desire) of checking things like engine displacement, transmission, etc. I was too honest...my bad!

maybe you should look at what kind of cars are racing in group 10.
Modern Mustangs, Corvettes and 911 Cup Cars.
They will laps you every other lap, I would not consider that fun.

Oh, I agree...that's why I didn't want to be in Group 10!! I ended up at GTO in Group 6, with Huey... still not fun, but at least I wasn't being run off the road..

GTO and GTU were Group 6

so back to the original post/picture...is that #62 car running slicks or treaded tires?

I had a 2.2L street engine and he wanted me to run in group 10 because of the car's body work

wow...
Yeah, He was going to 'allow' me to run Group 6 with Papa Smurf if I took off the wing and splitter, and ran in class 6X - meaning 'exhibition'...no awards, no trophies. Huey was probably classed correctly in GTO, but with a street stock 3.2, it was slow going...

I went to him at the end of the weekend and said "since I have to rebuild my race engine, what can I do to make it (Papa Smurf) legal to run here in a real non-Group 10 class". He said - after degrading me and my car - "go buy a car that's got a HSR log book and is done right and looks like the other 914's out here, why is this so hard for you to understand?"

Sounds like some of these guys need to loosen up a little!

My ex-GTU 911 has a 3.5L in it, so I'd classify as GTO, and unfortunately, possibly Group 10? This car is pretty much exactly as raced in 1987 except the larger engine. What do you think?

I love it, Jack would probably hate it

Ha, yeah probably. I'am planning to clean up the bodywork including repairing and painting some of the panels. Is that the part he'd hate?

It's not obvious from this shot, but this is the Apcar 911 that Fred Apgar ran. I am trying to piece together the history of this car, but per Fred and also Peter Dawe, it was owned/raced by Dennis Aase prior to Fred.

This is a really sore subject with me, so I hope you'll forgive a bit of a rant...

The people running "vintage/historic" racing these days don't seem to have any idea about, or interest in, the actual history of motor racing. If they did they would have appropriate classes for these cars. Instead, they dis-allow the wings, spoilers and flares that these cars came with and insist that they run on treaded tires. Cars from the IMSA era never ran in that configuration, but if you have one and want to race, well, you'd better do what they say.

The truth is that they have the cars and participants that they want and are not interested in having anything that doesn't slot in to the existing program. That's fine. They are allowed to run their series their way.

Where I get aggravated is when they continue to say that they welcome and are seeking race cars that are "unique and authentic", but insist on excluding certain cars if they ARE run in an authentic configuration, even if they are one of a kind. A look around the paddock at all of the over-restored, model kit looking cars will tell you that authentic/original appearance isn't insisted upon either.

This issue comes up every time we try to run the Baker 914, which is nothing if not "unique". Even at the last Rennsport (administered by HMSA), we were told that our tires were illegal (slicks) just as the five minutes was given on the grid! We were then black-flagged out of the race two laps in.

End rant...

I hope that as more of these things show up that they will become more interested in allowing them to run as designed.

I love the idea of a book to document everything about the IMSA 914s. If I can help with anything on the Baker car just give me a call!

Mike

Guys.

I'm a Porsche eligibility tech.


It's not all that complicated.
Pick from the years of vintage rules that are accepted by the club you want to run with
Many vintage clubs have accepted 1981 now.

So as an example if scca 1981 And also Imsa 1981 are allowed then you can use the engine sizes allowed in a 914 in 1981

So a 2.0 in scca
And a 2.5 in Imsa

A 2.0/6 is more competitive in a small class than a 2.5 is against 3.0 911's
Unless your a hell of a driver with a really built motor

I believe Imsa accepted the 3.0 later than 1981 so if you have a club that only goes up to 1981 then you have to stick with 2.5l

Frank beck is running a 2.5
But I've heard as high as 300hp from it

Mike.

I've run with cvar. Hmsa. Svra. And csrg in 2 months.


This is vintage racing
Their rules are as they were applied inyears past.
I don't see what is confusing.
In the 60's and 70's (even early 80's). No sanctioning body allowed a 914 to run motors that the factory didn't offer. 3.5l/911s were not being built and accepted in those days. It's old rules for old cars. Not hard to understand.

Did the baker car run those tires body work and motor combo in say 1972?

Brant
not to be argumentative here, I see your point, but I also understand where Mike is coming from. Let me tell you the rest of the conversation I had with Jack:

So after he finished with his "get all that crap off your car" and "we don't want shit like that around here" (referring to Papa Smurf), I said "OK, so you want it to look like that" - and I pointed to Huey. He said "even that I should have put you into Group 10". I asked why? He said "that's not what a 914 should look like. Walk around the paddock and see what they should be like, then just go buy one like that and quit trying to make it something its not" When I replied saying "yes, that IS what a 914/6 GT looked like and what they all look like here. I understand the engine is wrong, but that's why I'm coming to you and asking what I should do to make it legal", he said "get out of here and don't come back until you have a legal car. Just go buy one that has a log book and be done with it, why is this so hard for you to understand?"!!!

As Glenn can obviously attest to above, and as Mike has mentioned, the problem is that some of the Tech guys don't know what they're looking at, especially when it comes to 914's. Understandable, there are A LOT of cars to know through the years. But, if you can show that your car meets the regulations, why is there an argument? Glenn's car DID run in that configuration back then and he was harassed. I'm sure many tech directors would have issues with the car that started this thread, but there's proof that it DID run in IMSA...Jack would probably reject it...

and oh, btw...I've heard a lot about Frank Beck's car...which is FAR from legal. But..it looks the part and he's a regular so it gets rubber stamped.

There is no doubt that Frank Beck's car is should illegal. I had his back-up car which was stout, yet he called it a piece of shit (had a bunch of Podiums) when I attempted to talk to him about it.

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Not every club accepts Imsa
My club only adopted the Imsa through 1976 and only did that recently
If someone builds a car to 1977 specifications with modifications from 1977 then it is not allowed.

Cvar doesn't accept ImsA at all

My club doesn't accept fia at all

I had to turn down a chalon because the scca never recognized a slope nose 914 because the factory never built a slope nosed 914

I guess my point as an eligibility person, is to read the rules
I don't know if glen's club gave him grief because they do or don't accept Imsa?

But if you find a club you like. See what years and to what rules they accept that then it should work

For example. The 914 gt's were raced in Europe as an fia class
If my club doesn't accept fia then I can't race a Gt.
I knew that when I built my car and pulled my fenders without putting gt flares on my car.
It goes back to the oldest saying in the book to read the rule book
I'm sorry the guy at the hawk wAs a jerk. That's not cool. Sounds like he was frustrated and not a good steward at all

Hey Brant
I agree with you, if you're going to run with a local/regional vintage group and are building a car, build it to their specs. Unfortunately it many times eliminates true vintage racers, those that actually DID race back in the day, but it's their series and they can do what they want...I get that.

What I DON'T get is the big National events, like the Hawk, Indy, Daytona, Monterey that are trying to get the ACTUAL cars raced back in the day, or supposedly clones of those cars. They tell me that they will accept cars that are classed in other racing venues, but then turn around and deny them? that makes no sense...

Somehow...Huey was 'wrong' - I get it, the engine but Group 10??? - but a guy we were with had a 2012 Pontiac GTO with 450 hp and THAT was legal in Group 6? it looked like a commuter car...what the heck??

It SEEMS that it's just up to the tech director as to if they like you or not...Jack seems to not like 914's...there was another guy there that had an original Brumos 914 that raced (TC, you may know him but I can't remember his name!!) and Jack gave HIM a hard time too!!

Actual pedigree trumps whatever you decide to build any day. Doesn't matter if it was run last year. For us with these cars, it means you must build the car with a very specific direction in mind. Slapping a body kit on it and a hot motor just doesn't cut it for most vintage associations so the onus is on the builder to get the rules first, then follow them to the tee. 914s have always been hot rodded from day one, which is why most vintage associations have a hard time figuring out how to class them. Think about it, the last IMSA car was running in competition all the way into the late 80s.

Wasn't this an imsa car?

^^^yes GTU 1976

That is a totally FALSE statement!
I have looked over the suspension and brakes on Frank's 914 and it humbles me as a driver to see how much he can do with so little.

Brant,
My club (Midwestern Council) accepts SCCA, FIA and IMSA cars and I have no trouble with my car there. I totally agree with you about picking a club before you pick the car, although sometimes you end up with an old race car (or 5) that you would like to race.

When I went to the BRIC I was merely trying to run at an event that is touted to be the largest vintage race in the US (I think Monterey Historics are better) and claims to accept all kinds of car. I take exception to people who insult me and my car and I believe that it is not a good idea to place a car in a class that puts the driver and car in harms way because of the speed differentials.

As you can see from the examples given the tech guy accepts anything (newer than 2000 Mustangs, Lexus and BMWs). He is just on a power trip and enjoys his role being “The Decider” and doesn’t mind rubbing it in your face.

I vote with my money and that is why I will not race at the Hawk until Jack is removed as supreme tech director.

Mike,
Your Baker 914/4 is a significant part of the 914s race history and it is just sad that you have issues with tech people, especially at Rennsport.
BTW I did see your car at Rennsport IV and it was great to finally see it in person.

Interesting fact, the previous owner of my car received a letter from IMSA in 1987 telling him they were no longer allowed to run. I wish he had kept that letter

I recall when that happened, actually. There were several 914s running by NJ racers when they excluded the 914. It's strange though that they decided mid-season to do that. The 1987 IMSA code (see link below) specifically lists the 914 as eligible ...

And that's when Ray, Bruce, and Fred started running 911s. I recall hearing that Ray and Bruce looked into rebodying a 914 as a 911 (!), but they got shot down on that.

1987 IMSA code

in the 70's Imsa rules were loosely based on FIA rules
and Imsa was trying to bring more cars in that were not competitive anylonger in Europe

the FIA regularly phased cars out of eligibility
remember it was a sanctioning body created to showcase manufacturers.... once a car became old and no longer available for sale to the public... the manufacturer didn't race it any longer

so the FIA phased things out

I wonder if this played into the IMSA decision and affected more than just 914's in 1987?

Probably ... from what I see in the 1987 IMSA Code seems to say bascially "anything that is legal in FIA plus these additional cars." The 911 wasn't called out specifically in the IMSA code but the 914 was, presumably because the 914 wasn't in the FIA rules since it was out of production by then. I guess was being more liberal to encourage participation, but by 1987 must have decided that they didn't need or want an older model like the 914 anymore. I just looked again and see some other older models like in the 1987 code like Datsun 240Z. I wonder if they did some housekeeping and outlawed other such models at the same time.

It probably wasn’t a bad decision removing the 914 as it was 11 years out of production and not really setting the GTU class on fire like the Mazda’s and Nissan’s . IMSA and FIA were co-sanctioning bodies for 24 hrs of Daytona and 12 hrs of Sebring up until the early ‘80s maybe they were trying to achieve some parity for shared events.

Ray Hendricks built a Mid-engine 911 that he raced in IMSA after my 914, he pulled the 3.0L RSR motor and 916 gear box out of my car to make it. Needless to say it is pretty cool.

I know he raced a 911 for a number of years after the 914 and at some point built a mid-engine 911, but I thought he never raced the mid-engine one. I saw some pictures of it at some point when he put it up for sale. I never heard more about it, so maybe he still has it.

I bought the 914 from him in 2009 before he moved to AZ, i am pretty sure he took the 911 on the move. I thought he said he built the mid-engine 911 for IMSA but I could be wrong.