distributor-less ignition, where to go Options

[veekry9]

For twin spark on a megsquirt based system you would parallel the logic level coil fire signals from the megasquirt to the two VW 2.0 coil packs ($30 each new on ebay). Haven't set this system up myself (don't have the heads), but there's no reason it couldn't be done that way.

It's being done that way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) , MS2xtra w/sequentil ignition & injection , I've been working on this for my 2.8 twin plug conversion , IT WORKS (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) , will update my thread in the future,( couple weeks, my ECU is at the DUBSHOP for the sequentil injector modification, ) I test run the ignition part already (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

http://www.thedubshop.net/links.htm

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...225696&st=0

here's few pic's enjoy , cheers Bill D.

That's nice head work,tight compact chamber.Have you experimented with the stack length to gain low rpm torque?
Is this the DTM blower setup from Raby?A thought comes to me from this pix,a heatsink in the blower's airstream would keep the coilpacks cool.
The other thing I notice is the routing of the hightension cables,the close proximity of the cables through the others is a tidy looking way but may induce a misfire and destruction,it's cute,but widely separated cables is safer.

[914werke]

@WLD419 who did you twin plugging/headwork?
Edit: nevermind....

[jarred]

Mark: Theory is that accurately timed/mapped spark is the only way to make power in an engine. Of course in practice, to do it correctly entails dyno time. When you change internals, the ignition map needs to change to take full advantage of it. Changes in compression, combustion chamber, valve size, cam profile, bore, plug location etc. all effect the flame front and timing for optimal ignition. You can twist an 009 to not ping at full advance, probably make good power at WOT and full advance, but everything in between that and idle is likely sub-optimal. Fueling is pretty lenient across AFR in terms of power output. I suspect that Jake has spent considerable time looking at ignition hook curves and the output of knock sensors while deriving ignition maps for his engines. But of course, some of us like to tinker with these things ourselves!

WLD: Very cool. I have a pair of old T4 heads I considered using to jig up in the machining center. Pretty low priority project though, and seems like nerve wracking work if done to good heads.

[02loftsmoor]

I don't know why you would bother doing this unless you are going FI (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Spend the money in the engine not on it. Only exception to this is headers which is the cheapest HP gain you can add to the engine.
This mod adds zero HP.

OK I thought with more of a tune-able ignition you could squeeze a bit more out with out a lot of problems .
you have forgotten more than I know,,, so I will ask and I do listen , and thank you

[veekry9]

Twin plug engines LOVE cylinder pressure! I always back up a few degrees on duration and start at 11:1 CR with the tightest deck possible. So far thats been good for 274HP from 2.8 liters on 91 octane. That engine had .025" deck.

You'll find that timing the engine is very, very far removed from your previous attempts and that it will optimize much leaner than it used to.

Thanks Jake for chiming in , these are those vintage heads I picked up last year on your e-bay site (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) , wow .025 deck is a little to close for me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) , the timing I've read & been told will be less ,they say as much as 6-8 degrees less , this twin plug stuff is all new to me
but its time for a change on this motor ( 3yrs + running on this version) , I'd be happy with 200hp at wheels , 15 more than I have now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) , thanks Bill D.

All about the Benjamins,uh yes.How much dough you can throw.
All about the squish and crankcase pressure,the scavenging of the drysump.That .025 clearance is a reasonable compromise.
How close do you dare get,.012 is a dimension used in other forms of racing.
Those pistons are a very nice score,it appears iron cylinders are being used,have you considered application of coatings available today?A reduction of the heat the piston must transfer to the cylinder increases longevity of the rings.
A huge advantage is realized with the Nickies,closer clearances can be used,ring tension can be reduced significantly.
Big power gains can be had with a rollercam in an effort to reduce friction losses.All round an awesome build,gives a boost to my own efforts.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)

http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/
As a reference.

[Mark Henry]

I don't know why you would bother doing this unless you are going FI (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

Spend the money in the engine not on it. Only exception to this is headers which is the cheapest HP gain you can add to the engine.
This mod adds zero HP.

OK I thought with more of a tune-able ignition you could squeeze a bit more out with out a lot of problems .
you have forgotten more than I know,,, so I will ask and I do listen , and thank you

Mark: Theory is that accurately timed/mapped spark is the only way to make power in an engine. Of course in practice, to do it correctly entails dyno time. When you change internals, the ignition map needs to change to take full advantage of it. Changes in compression, combustion chamber, valve size, cam profile, bore, plug location etc. all effect the flame front and timing for optimal ignition. You can twist an 009 to not ping at full advance, probably make good power at WOT and full advance, but everything in between that and idle is likely sub-optimal. Fueling is pretty lenient across AFR in terms of power output. I suspect that Jake has spent considerable time looking at ignition hook curves and the output of knock sensors while deriving ignition maps for his engines. But of course, some of us like to tinker with these things ourselves!

WLD: Very cool. I have a pair of old T4 heads I considered using to jig up in the machining center. Pretty low priority project though, and seems like nerve wracking work if done to good heads.

Ok, timing is important, you need a good curve, but to what point? Do you really need it? Many factors... like what are you running? Unless you are really high performance, programmable ignition is at best questionable.
As far as a good curve a mallory will do that.

Turbo yes it's good idea because it needs retard at boost. FI is also a good thing in this case.
Twin plug, yes as it solves the second set of plugs.
But performance NA, even high compression all you need 95% of the time is a good curve and a hot spark, a dizzy with MSD will do that.

"But Crank fire is more accurate"
OK...but how much and does it matter?
Sure a dizzy gear has slop, but that only comes into play during deceleration and really that doesn't mean a hill of beans. Even crank fire is not really accurate often wandering 2-3 degrees at any given time at higher RPMs.
Jarred's post is typical of what I often see making ignition (many systems) way more complicated than is needed. Maybe it's important on a F1 car...but a street car???

My SDS has programmable crankfire , really when you see the parameters on SDS you realize ignition isn't rocket science. As far as A/F ratio, jetting or your fuel map is the most important aspect. I've had and have just as good running engines with a good old dizzy.
Not saying ignition (and curve) is not important, just saying at the state of tune of most street engines it makes little or no difference.

[veekry9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoJfMZ9YgQc


http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=193547
https://www.youtube.com/user/Porschenut13/videos

Making it work.

[jarred]

I suppose it depends on what "complicated" is to you. I mean "you" generally, not any specific members of this forum. I'd rather fill out and modify a table on a laptop than buy springs, diaphragms and jets, bend over a 914 engine bay and huff gas fumes. But that's my preference. I like the immediate gratification and feedback of programmable engine management, and auto-tuning and tweaking fuel maps with wideband O2 is a pretty cool and empowering backyard tuning experience.

I'm not a tuning pro nor am I here to argue or convince anyone of anything. If the topic of FI and programmable spark are of interest to you, do some research, then have some fun learning and doing something new. Seriously, nothing about mucking with an engine is cheap or easy.

I found Cramer's book to be a good read when I was doing my first tuning, probably a good starting point for anyone interested in the topic.
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/perform...ooks-p-436.html

[stugray]

Ok, timing is important, you need a good curve, but to what point? Do you really need it? Many factors... like what are you running? Unless you are really high performance, programmable ignition is at best questionable.
As far as a good curve a mallory will do that.

If you tune on newer cars you will find that the high performance engines are pushing the car right to the edge of detonation (literally and figuratively).

The knock sensors detect knock and vary the timing maps based on engine load, RPM, and knowledge of previous knock events.
This allows them to push the timing advance to the absolute limit of knocking.
I just jumped in because I understand the systems on the FA20 engine, and I have been tinkering with some "megasquirt-like" designs of my own.

[Mark Henry]

I suppose it depends on what "complicated" is to you. I mean "you" generally, not any specific members of this forum. I'd rather fill out and modify a table on a laptop than buy springs, diaphragms and jets, bend over a 914 engine bay and huff gas fumes. But that's my preference. I like the immediate gratification and feedback of programmable engine management, and auto-tuning and tweaking fuel maps with wideband O2 is a pretty cool and empowering backyard tuning experience.

I'm not a tuning pro nor am I here to argue or convince anyone of anything. If the topic of FI and programmable spark are of interest to you, do some research, then have some fun learning and doing something new. Seriously, nothing about mucking with an engine is cheap or easy.

I found Cramer's book to be a good read when I was doing my first tuning, probably a good starting point for anyone interested in the topic.
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/perform...ooks-p-436.html

Well yes it is my opinion but this is what I base it upon:

30+ years VW engine building, 25 years performance engine building.

I was one of the first here playing with programmable fuel injection with crankfire ignition, I turned Jake Raby onto SDS at least a dozen years ago (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)
I've also built a few performance engines, I'd say there's only a few guys here that have built more.

My personal 1967 bug Engine
2.6L T4 engine conversion, handmade shroud
SDS EFI with crankfire, WMS wideband
46mm ITB's custom modified from suzuki TB's, 55lbs deka injectors, custom linkage and fuel rails
102X78mm, CB rods, all german bearings
914 heads 44X38mm SI valves, 12mm plugs opened to 103 built by me,
dual springs, Berg CrMo retainers and keepers, manton pushrods, 911 adjusters, spacers
102mm Nickies with custom pocket JE's and oil pin oiling mod
webcam, ceramic lifters,
Full flow oiling system, 30mm type 1 pump, remote filter, custom windage tray
A1 header, custom engine bar
911-901 trans

I also built another engine with almost the exact same specs as this one (103X78mm) except 44 webers and mallory distributor. The engines were very similar I say the carb engine had a hair more top end power while my FI engine had a bit better fuel mileage.

[Mark Henry]

Ok, timing is important, you need a good curve, but to what point? Do you really need it? Many factors... like what are you running? Unless you are really high performance, programmable ignition is at best questionable.
As far as a good curve a mallory will do that.

If you tune on newer cars you will find that the high performance engines are pushing the car right to the edge of detonation (literally and figuratively).

The knock sensors detect knock and vary the timing maps based on engine load, RPM, and knowledge of previous knock events.
This allows them to push the timing advance to the absolute limit of knocking.
I just jumped in because I understand the systems on the FA20 engine, and I have been tinkering with some "megasquirt-like" designs of my own.

Knock sensors will not work well on an aircooled engines as they are too noisy.
"Newer" cars are watercooled and thus can tolerate leaner AFR's. Aircooled engines actually use the fuel charge to aid cooling. Leaning out an Aircooled you will immediately see your head temps go through the roof, the results will be bad. I suggest you have a very good head temp gauge.
If you think you are charting new territory you are mistaken. Jake and many others have already experimented with this many years ago.
But by all means carry on.

[stugray]

If you think you are charting new territory you are mistaken. Jake and many others have already experimented with this many years ago.
But by all means carry on.

If you have a digital distributor that can vary timing advance based on RPM and a MAP sensor, that is reprogrammable with a droid phone and a usb cable, then I would buy one from you right now.

[jarred]

They're getting closer http://msdroid.com/

[stugray]

That is almost identical to what I built (droid phone gauges and plotting wise) but mine currently can only log data and control my dash trouble light and shift light. No controlling since it is a vintage racecar.

[Mark Henry]

Hate to say this but...bluetooth on a 50 year old engine based on a 80 year old design (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[stugray]

Hate to say this but...bluetooth on a 50 year old engine based on a 80 year old design (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

MSDs have a "microprocessor" in them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) doe that make them too high tech for our cars?

So there is something wrong with logging AFR, EGTs, CHTs, Oil Pressure, Oil Temp, Fuel Pressure, & throttle position?

Right now the way it works is the system monitors all of my vitals and if anything goes out of limit, it will turn on my dash light and display the item that is out of range on the droid phone.

I see lots of guys on the track with their $1000+ traq-mates.
Mine cost me about $200 (and a spare droid phone)
And while it doesnt have bluetooth, I COULD configure it so my "pit crew" could see my vital statistics while I'm out on track via WiFi, I just didnt see the point (until I get a nice driver radio system).

As for the distributor idea, I want to make something that can adjust timing advance curves without changing weights & springs.
There is a MSD that does exactly what I want that is >$500, but the hardware I need to do it I just bought for $20.

[Mark Henry]

I understand why, but to me if you do want to go this route then something like MS is the only thing I'd consider. At least that gives you the option of going FI in the future.

In reality you may play with the ignition curve for a little bit at first, BTDT, but I guarantee in short order you will set it and forget it.
When I got my bug on the road last spring I played with my ignition curve a bit but in the end settled on a curve that I made a decade ago.

[stugray]

I agree with you. However with the dist.s we have currently (I have the Mallory), you have to take the dist apart and change out springs & weights.
With my idea, you can change the advance in 10 seconds without taking anything apart.
I could probably make the software such that you could modify the parameters on the fly while the engine is running.

Having just one of those seems it would be an advantage to an engine builder to be able to find the sweet spot while on the dyno.
With the cost of Dyno time, the dist would pay for itself just by not having to disassemble the dist between runs.
However I am guessing that anyone who tunes a lot of these engines probably have a variable timing system like the $$ MSD for initial setup.

I know there are distributors with mechanical "Programmable" curves, but are a PITA.
I looked into the Magnaspark II that does exactly what I want, but AFAI can tell, it wont mechanically fit on our engine.

So if I am crazy, then so are these guys:
http://www.cbperformance.com/Articles.asp?ID=254

[Bills914-4]

There is this , use your distributor in locked mode (no centrifugal weights) , program on the fly with a laptop & serial cable plugged in I believe,
kinda like my vintage CB Quicktune EFI system (soon to be upgraded to MS2xtra sequential (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ),

http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetail...roductCode=2013

[jarred]

Cool that the CB box under $200. I agree with Stugray though it's $20 in parts. If you have a pertronix, you could probably figure out how to use that as the trigger/interrupt for a microprocessor then control the coil fire timing through a Bosch ignitor which is practically free off of any junked european car from the '80's. Spark would still be through the rotor/cap and using a single coil. Which is what these are guys are probably doing: http://www.123ignition.nl/products.php?id=50&lang=eng Drawback is you pay the cost of a whole new distributor ~$450