Fake VIN number, 1970 needs one last number Options

[pgollender]

My 1970 with a california re-assigned ID number is ready to go back on the road after nearly 5 years of restoration. When I bought the car it had a California re-assigned ID number because of a falsified VIN. About 10 years ago there was an investigation by a Fresno police officer that used a Fry's method of recovering the real VIN. His investigation was almost successful, he identified and recovered NINE out of TEN digits. So the car is one of 10 possible.
If the group can help by supplying any of the missing known numbers that would greatly enhance the chance of restoring the true ID number of my vechicle by process of elimination>
This is the partial number: 4702905_48. Anybody that has that third digit could respond. If I get lucky, REALLY lucky, I'll have 9 responses. Any help is appreciated.

[Gustl]

sorry, but that's not a valid VIN (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

it has to start with 47029xxxxx

[Tom_T]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

So your Fresno officer's prior work either has the "0" in place #5 wrong, or else the "0" & "9" in places #5 & #6 respectively are transposed.

Unfortunately, this then may also reflect negatively on the accuracy of the other digits.

What it the "Fry's method" to which you referred that he used?

Have you also checked for the VIN stamped into the passenger side front wheelhouse top inside the trunk?

... &/or for the VIN plate on the inside face of the right front headlight housing in the trunk &/or the plate in the windshield's driver A-pillar?

... &/or for the Chassis No. on the front jamb of the driver's door &/or stamped in the rear floor of the rear trunk?

The Chassis # may be a way to trace the VIN too.

But I'd assume as a stolen car or whatever with fake VIN, the thieves or fraudsters probably ground them all off & removed all I.D. plates.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/welcome.png)

Good Luck!
Tom
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[SirAndy]

Assuming that the 09 are simply switched we get

4702905_48


Now, looking through our VIN database there's only one that we can eliminate:
4702905848


As stated above, the chassis number might help to narrow down the VIN range, so finding that would be helpful.

This link might help you finding the chassis number:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/sources/actio...elpchassis.html

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[pgollender]

Assuming that the 09 are simply switched we get

4702905_48

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

Thanks Andy:
My mistake, the number the Fresno
officer wrote was: 4702905_48
I had the 5 and 9 switched.
One down eight to go. The ninth one is mine14.

[pgollender]

What it the "Fry's method" to which you referred that he used?


Good Luck!
Tom
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Tom, Frys is a chemical etching solution that uses ferric chloride and HCL acid that is used when the fraudsters grind off the serial or in this case VIN numbers. All the plates and numbers were missing on my vehicle. It was remarkable that he recovered 9 out of 10.
I will check out the chassis lead too.
BTW he had the number right, I had transposed the "5" and "9".

[pgollender]

Ok I found the chassis number stamped in the trunk: it is:
1239531
Now what do we do with that ?

[Gustl]

IIRC, we could say, that your car was built on March 18, 1970

this would reduce the possible VIN range

somewhere in the area 04700 ~ 05900 (apporx. - not in detail)

so, Andy might be right, that 90 was simply swithcet to 09

your VIN should beginn with 470290xxxx - possibly 4702905_48

[pgollender]

Did Karmann ever keep records of chassis numbers matched with VIN's ?
Silly question, but does anyone know when the VIN is actually applied , like at the very last stage of completion or if the VIN was actually stamped at the factory?
914 VIN numbers look like they were applied with a cold punch tool by hand, at least my two other 914's looked that way. Kinda sloppy.
Is there a way to contact the old Karmann-Porsche factory ? I'm assuming this question probably has been asked before. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[Johny Blackstain]

Did Karmann ever keep records of chassis numbers matched with VIN's ?
Silly question, but does anyone know when the VIN is actually applied , like at the very last stage of completion or if the VIN was actually stamped at the factory?
914 VIN numbers look like they were applied with a cold punch tool by hand, at least my two other 914's looked that way. Kinda sloppy.
Is there a way to contact the old Karmann-Porsche factory ? I'm assuming this question probably has been asked before. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

The chassis number is Karmann only, the VIN is a VW-Porsche number. You might be able to match the VIN to the chassis number via Porsche, but I seriously doubt it through Karmann. If I'm not mistaken, Karmann has filed for bankruptcy & might not be around anymore.

From Wiki:
Bankruptcy[edit]

Family strains of the third generation of Karmanns contributed to bankruptcy of the company.[7] Falling demand along with other financially connected businesses forced the company to file for protective insolvency on 8 April 2009. Insolvency practitioner Ottmar Hermann followed some of the approach seen with the earlier insolvency of Woolworths' German business, and the Karmann business is emerging with little independence, but supported by significant cash investment from long-standing customer Volkswagen.[8][9]

On 8 April 2009, Karmann filed for bankruptcy protection due to the sharp decline in demand for cars, and the company's financial obligations.[10] Volkswagen revealed on 24 October 2009, that it had made an offer to acquire long-time partner Karmann.[11] On 20 November 2009 Volkswagen said that it would buy Karmann's site at Osnabrück, to produce a new vehicle. On 4 November 2010 Valmet Automotive signed an agreement to buy Karmann's roof-component sections in Osnabrück, Germany, and Żary, Poland.[12] Karmann's North American operations were sold August 2010 to Webasto Group.[13]

[Tom_T]

Did Karmann ever keep records of chassis numbers matched with VIN's ?
Silly question, but does anyone know when the VIN is actually applied , like at the very last stage of completion or if the VIN was actually stamped at the factory?
914 VIN numbers look like they were applied with a cold punch tool by hand, at least my two other 914's looked that way. Kinda sloppy.
Is there a way to contact the old Karmann-Porsche factory ? I'm assuming this question probably has been asked before. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

Thanx for explaining the Fry's method! I learned something new!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Not with Karmann, even though VW has taken over the Karmann plant since the BK noted above, since the records will be with Porsche/PCNA now as microfilmed to digital of the original paper "Kardex" build record.

Here's what I'd suggest that you try...

Call PCNA Customer Care 800# & select the one for the Certificate of Authenticity (COA) & tell them that you're trying to straighten out your 914's true VIN & will then want to buy a COA - which you'd want to help you document out your 914's true VIN & then reregister it under that with DMV .... I'm assuming here!

They may want you to send pix of the Chassis # & of the Fry's method of the result (if you got that, or of the officer's documentation given to you).

So IF - and a BIG IF - if Hans or Franz or whomever did the Kardex at Karmann back in `69 or `70 when yours was built also happened to take the time to enter the Chassis # on the Kardex equating to your car/VIN -

.... then PCNA ~ IF they're in a cooperative mood (another big if) ~ can use the process of elimination which your asking here to go thru the 10 VINs to match the Chassis # - since only one will match a particular VIN.

Now PCNA is notoriously wrong on translating the option codes & just about anything else on the older Porsches of ALL models, & notoriously lazy in researching much of anything - or in correcting THEIR OWN ERRORS on your COA ~ even when you send them correcting information & documentation (personal experience unfortunately).

So you may have to go up the ladder to supervisors & managers ... & then may still hit a dead end "NO" (as I did) .... and then call or email their current GM of Customer Care to explain the problems & get some action - as I did & it worked!!

So patience, persistence, time, effort & pix & documentation MAY find you the answer - but they'll have to go beyond the lazy easy path, & then actually look at the photos (microfilm-to-digital) on their little computers to see if they can match the Chassis # to one of 10 VINs.

If you can narrow down any by using the VIN data base on here as SirAndy suggests above, then that can help your cause that at least you've tried at some time & expense to solve it for them.

BTW - I contacted the VW Museum in Germany & got a COA for our 88 Westfalia correct the first time at 1/2 the cost - while it took 1-1/2 years, many calls & emails & absolutely a-hole supervisors & managers of the COA/Customer (non-)Care dept. at PCNA for 2x the price to get 3 incomplete incorrect COAs (no 2.0L & wrong interior color due to mis-read code # by them) .... & got no help nor correct COA until I called therir Custome CAre GM personally - who did give me an apology, got the COA corrected & refunded my full fee! So they can sometimes figure out how to serve customers, although others have not been so fortunate in getting their COAs corrected, & I basically had to research & document all of the info. before they would change it anyway!

FYI - The Chassis # translates by first knowing which year it was built in - yours could be 8-12/69 or 1-7/70 (or process of elimination by the weeks counting out too late in the year), then get a calendar for that year to start counting weeks (which is what Wolfgang did for his post above)....

1239531

XXY95ZZ

XX = week of that year - start with week #1 even if only on 1/1
> & note what month that is in

Y = Day of Work Week 1-5 = M-F

95 = Karmann Plant (all 914/4 & -6)

ZZ = Car # built on that day

96 = Add 100 to above (97 = add 200)

Keep us posted as to how it goes!

[davep]

I do not believe the chassis # was recorded with the VIN. However a better method would be to see is the paint code and engine # can be used to ID the correct VIN.

[SirAndy]

You guys are over-thinking the whole chassis number thing.
The reason i linked our VIN database is so one can take his chassis number and compare it to the other chassis numbers already listed in the possible VIN range.


12.3.95.31 = Wednesday March 18, 1970

Since 470.29.05848 is already accounted for
and the chassis number for 470.29.05859 is 12.4.95.80 which is one day later
and if we assume they made about 150+ cars per day during that period,
my best guess for his VIN is:

470.29.05748


Now, if you have some money to spare, get the COA for 470.29.05748 and do as Dave suggested and compare the paint code and engine number to your car and see if it's a match.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Tom_T]

Dave & Andy - I think he said his Karmann badge with paint code was gone too, by the thieves.

He may be able to to see the original paint somewhere on a hidden part of the car.

Engine case # would work to eliminate - if it's still the OE case "matching #" & if it was recorded on the Kardex (I knew a guy back in the 1970's when you could look at the real Kardex/microfilm) whose 71 /4 had neither the transaxle case # (not unusual) nor the engine case # - so he passed on getting his COA! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I've also seen some COAs list the Chassis #, which is why I suggested that route.

With Paint code (if available), case # (if available) & the chassis # + Andy's narrowing down by eliminating 2 VIN possibilities & an educated guess at the likely VIN - he may be able to tie it down.

CA DMV will require some sort of "official" documentation from the mfgr. to issue the original VIN back to the car AFAIK. So the COA would fulfill that, which is why I suggested it.

It sounds like $120 for the COA (less any PCA or other discount) is probably not a huge expense - relative to what work they've done for that Fry's method VIN recovery, let alone what DMV will rape him for!!

BTW - Wolfgang/Gustl gave him the 3/18/70 Chassis # translations up above - & I was just explaining how he did so - & you did - for his future reference, &/or for anyone else reading this later & wondering how.

Good Luck, whatever you do next! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[pgollender]

Thanks for your input everyone: the Karmann door jamb badge with matching chassis number in the trunk and paint code L60e did survive the thievery. L60e, Irish Green, is the true original color. None of the other badges survived. The motor looks like a replacement from a 1973 since the code is EB 009180.

I want to thank everyone who is helping me find the identity of this formerly forgotten 1970 orphan. Where do I contact the organization that issues the COA ?
Additionally I will pursue Tom's suggestion to contact VW-Porsche to see if the digitized microfiche can link the Chassis # with the VIN. Looking forward to driving it soon at our local events. Having the proper pedigree would be the icing on the cake.
Next project is a yellow 1974 but complete with matching non-altered VIN, Karman badges, paint codes and window tags. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)

[Tom_T]

Thanks for your input everyone: the Karmann door jamb badge with matching chassis number in the trunk and paint code L60e did survive the thievery. L60e, Irish Green, is the true original color. None of the other badges survived. The motor looks like a replacement from a 1973 since the code is EB 009180.

I want to thank everyone who is helping me find the identity of this formerly forgotten 1970 orphan. Where do I contact the organization that issues the COA ?
Additionally I will pursue Tom's suggestion to contact VW-Porsche to see if the digitized microfiche can link the Chassis # with the VIN. Looking forward to driving it soon at our local events. Having the proper pedigree would be the icing on the cake.
Next project is a yellow 1974 but complete with matching non-altered VIN, Karman badges, paint codes and window tags. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/welder.gif)

Paul - I also replied to the PM you sent to me, instead of the other 70 914 owner in the VIN data base.

Also, I wasn't suggesting going to VW-Porsche with the Chassis #, but to PCNA for a COA (Certif. of Authenticity) to track down the missing VIN & get the official Porsche COA as your document to take to DMV.

Since you have the color & chassis # & whatever police report on the VIN resurrection proceeds, & a now even more limited list of possible VINs - hopefully they can look at those remaining 7-9 VINs to match either color &/or chassis # - if listed on the source Kardex - so insist that they actually look at those now digital microfilm pix of the Kardex's!

PCNA is the US arm of Porsche - Porsche Cars North America in Atlanta, & you can go to the Porsche website & to their Porsche Classics section, & on their you'll find the email, phone, forms, etc. for a COA.

Due to your special situation & needs, I'd call them as the first step, & you'll probably have to ask for a supervisor or manager if the first help tech doesn't know, isn't sure or just says no.

They may need permission of the higher-ups anyway to help you in your situation, but I've heard of some other 356, 550 & early 911/912 owners having to do similar things to reconstruct their VINs - so I think it's been done before at least once! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You've got my email & cell at that PM, if you need it.

Good Luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[pgollender]

"PCNA is the US arm of Porsche - Porsche Cars North America in Atlanta, & you can go to the Porsche website & to their Porsche Classics section, & on their you'll find the email, phone, forms, etc. for a COA.

Due to your special situation & needs, I'd call them as the first step, & you'll probably have to ask for a supervisor or manager if the first help tech doesn't know, isn't sure or just says no.

They may need permission of the higher-ups anyway to help you in your situation, but I've heard of some other 356, 550 & early 911/912 owners having to do similar things to reconstruct their VINs - so I think it's been done before at least once! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You've got my email & cell at that PM, if you need it.

Good Luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom"

Thanks Tom, I will contact PCNA today (IMG:style_emoticons/default/type.gif)

One more question:
Lets say we do properly identify the VIN # .
To me the ideal final step would be to have the VIN door sticker and window tag "replicated" and the front inside fender cowl restamped.
I'm not sure who has the permission and authority to make those tags and do the actual stamping. DMV, Porsche, CHP, a 914 world vendor, me (the owner) ?Any thoughts ?

[dlkawashima]

One more question:
Lets say we do properly identify the VIN # .
To me the ideal final step would be to have the VIN door sticker and window tag "replicated" and the front inside fender cowl restamped.
I'm not sure who has the permission and authority to make those tags and do the actual stamping. DMV, Porsche, CHP, a 914 world vendor, me (the owner) ?Any thoughts ?

Contact Socalandy for a replica door compliance sticker ...

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=241884&hl=

[Tom_T]

Paul,

You forgot the VIN plate on the right inner headlight bucket/box in the F trunk (VIN is at 4 places on 914s).

You'll have to check with DMV, CHP, your local Police/Sheriff's dept. & the one who did the retrieval of the partial VIN, etc. to find out what the law is in this regard, & who can legally do it.

I know that they used to sell 914 "bodies in white" (new body shells) for cars severely damaged in an accident, & remark them as you want with the original VIN, & do so with parts removed in repairs where the VIN occurred (really both for any & all cars).

Maybe McMark (Mark @ Original Customs advertised on here) &/or one of the other members on here with CA based shops can say more definitively.

IIRC - DMV allows reputable body shops to replicate the VINs in conjunction with their repairs, so that would probably be the way to go, unless you check with DMV &/or CHP & they give other info &/or say you can with proper paperwork.

Finding the right stamping font may be hard for the fender one - but you can probably find something close.

Socalandy on here sells the repro door VIN stickers, so PM to him.
... He may also know about who can stamp them from his 914-6 rebuild - if he had to cut in that inner wheelhouse on his?

The easiest way to repro the VIN on the headlight box would probably be to find another junker `70 914/4 & flatten out the VIN & date, then re-stamp in yours.

.... unless you can find someone on German eBay or something selling the blanks (there is somebody selling blank Karmann plates on there).

For the windshield frame tag you'll probably have to use a generic one of whatever the resto & body shops use, unless you also find blanks of those as above, or can flatten & restamp the appropriate numbers.

For all of the above, you'll need both documentation for the correct VIN (a letter from Porsche/PCNA stating that they've researched & reconstructed it for you in addition to the COA will help + the police reports, Fry's thing, etc.) - PLUS you'll want to photo-doc anything where you're modifying another VIN plate to re-stamp as yours.

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[pgollender]

Back to chassis numbers:
First two digits are weeks,
Third digit is day of week
"9" is Karmann plant
"95"xx, production less than 101 cars for the day
"96"xx, production less than 201 cars for the day
"97"xx, production less than 301 cars for the day
last three are unique serial # 6xx or 7xx

Are there any instances when the third digit, the day of the week
anything BUT one through one through five ? Monday through Friday ?
Any Saturdays, i.e., = 6 or Sundays, i.e., =7