Fake VIN number, 1970 needs one last number Options

[Tom_T]

Back to chassis numbers:
First two digits are weeks,
Third digit is day of week
"9" is Karmann plant
"95"xx, production less than 101 cars for the day
"96"xx, production less than 201 cars for the day
"97"xx, production less than 301 cars for the day
last three are unique serial # 6xx or 7xx

Are there any instances when the third digit, the day of the week
anything BUT one through one through five ? Monday through Friday ?
Any Saturdays, i.e., = 6 or Sundays, i.e., =7

AFAIK - No.

Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but a 6 or 7 would be obvious! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Remember, this was Europe with long standing trade unions & mandatory month-long summer shut downs for Vacation! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[SirAndy]

Remember, this was Europe with long standing trade unions & mandatory month-long summer shut downs for Vacation! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

And don't forget the free beer at lunchtime!

The Unions fought hard to have that included in the contracts (no joke here).
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Tom_T]

Remember, this was Europe with long standing trade unions & mandatory month-long summer shut downs for Vacation! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

And don't forget the free beer at lunchtime!

The Unions fought hard to have that included in the contracts (no joke here).
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Yes ... & it shows in some of the late-in-the-day (IMG:style_emoticons/default/drunk.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beer3.gif) 914 builds too! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

I think that's why that other Orange/Black early 73 2L John L (avidfan) used to own has Chassis dated about 10 days before mine, but his got a 9/72 VIN sticker date -

While mine was a 8/72 sticker date with an 8/31/72 Chassis # - a REALLY FAST 1 day build!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[SirAndy]

I think that's why that other Orange/Black early 73 2L John L (avidfan) used to own has Chassis dated about 10 days before mine, but his got a 9/72 VIN sticker date -

While mine was a 8/72 sticker date with an 8/31/72 Chassis # - a REALLY FAST 1 day build!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Actually, that has nothing to do with beer.


Chassis numbers, VINs and US build date decals have no direct relationship.

The chassis numbers were stamped at Karman to keep track of the *raw* bodies produced.
They were *not* in sequence with the VIN numbers assigned to the finished cars and they were *not* in sequence with the "build date" on the US compliance stickers.

The US compliance decals were added after the cars left the assembly line, just before the cars were loaded on the trains to be shipped to the US.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[Tom_T]

I think that's why that other Orange/Black early 73 2L John L (avidfan) used to own has Chassis dated about 10 days before mine, but his got a 9/72 VIN sticker date -

While mine was a 8/72 sticker date with an 8/31/72 Chassis # - a REALLY FAST 1 day build!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Actually, that has nothing to do with beer.


Chassis numbers, VINs and US build date decals have no direct relationship.

The chassis numbers were stamped at Karman to keep track of the *raw* bodies produced.
They were *not* in sequence with the VIN numbers assigned to the finished cars and they were *not* in sequence with the "build date" on the US compliance stickers.

The US compliance decals were added after the cars left the assembly line, just before the cars were loaded on the trains to be shipped to the US.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

Oh Geez Andy .... take a joke as a joke! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

If you want to get "Teutonically Technical," then I'll bring out my German side & also point out that there were *NO* *ONE* *DAY* Builds either! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

Did you like my alliteration? ... also a joke! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/poke.gif)

Have a Good Lunch! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[pgollender]

I didn't think there was a 1 to 1 relationship to chassis numbers to VIN's either. I don't know how far the Karmann supply plant was from the VW-Porsche assembly plant, but I would imagine that the unibodys had to be transported and unloaded, moved around on the dock then the assembly plant, then marked at VW for certain assembly 'packages', thereby creating some discordance between chassis date and consecutive VIN numbers.
The reason I asked about the 3rd digit in the chassis number is that I found 1 member VIN # 4702905764 with chassis date listed as 1279585, making it a Sunday production chassis. Maybe an error on his part, but I've asked for clarification on that members part too, since I'm the nube here. My other 914, a 1974 has a chassis number that is actually sited with 6 digits, 219532, which I'm assuming is actually 0219532.
I'm just trying to get a better feel about that relationship before I call PCNA, and ask for some research on the missing digit. "7" has a good of chance as any of them... But maybe so does 0,1,2,3,4,5,6 and 9.
Anyway the Germans had it right about the beer, but like 914 owners, at least the American ones, we really perfected it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[SirAndy]

I didn't think there was a 1 to 1 relationship to chassis numbers to VIN's either. I don't know how far the Karmann supply plant was from the VW-Porsche assembly plant, but I would imagine that the unibodys had to be transported and unloaded, moved around on the dock then the assembly plant, then marked at VW for certain assembly 'packages', thereby creating some discordance between chassis date and consecutive VIN numbers.

Actually, all the /4 cars were completely assembled at Karman. Only the /6 shells were shipped to Porsche for final assembly.

While they didn't care much about chassis number order when moving shells into final assembly the shells were still produced in batches and chassis numbers usually are more or less sequential.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

[Tom_T]

Also Paul,

The same thing was happening with all of the 914 parts as they grabbed them willy-nilly, such that the engine & transaxle case #s, etc. won't be in any sort of sequential order with the VINs, chassis # etc. That really wasn't unusual to the 914s, nor Karmann either, as all auto makers pretty much did it that way.

However, to clarify, once those numbers are all linked up to one VIN, then those are the matching #s for that car.

So if any of those show on your car's Kardex & COA, then those are the correct matching #'s sought after - assuming there is no writing mistake when originally written on the cards, nor reading it back to make up the COA.

Socalandy with the yellow wide body 914-6 that's a past COTM here last year, & is pictured at my 918 topic at the PCA Zone 8 Concours last Sat., has an original 914-6 940xxxx engine case # ending in ...12, but the Kardex reads ...11 (or visa versa) - so something is amiss there, even though the sixes were assembled at Stuttgart (not at Karmann, who shipped the bodies to Stutt.).

I think it's less likely that that a PO just happened to find the case # one digit off in sequence - but it could happen - than somebody had either mis-written the case # on the Kardex - or that the PCNA person has mis-read it! .... or it could be a completely wrong case # on the Kardex.

Unfortunately, PCNA won't let us have a copy of the actual Kardex - why I do not know - but if they bring out their computers with the digitized Kardex microfilm records to a Parade, Tech Session or some other event where they let owners "look at" their Kardex or other base records, then one could perhaps see if & where the error could be!!

Also of note, at the beginning of a new model year, it was common to use up any old parts from the prior MY - even if the new MY had a change to them, so you'll get a mix-n-match of some older parts on a newer model car.

That happened with my early-73, which originally had the chrome-style 70-72 MY window cranks & door handle surrounds - rather than the all black ones of 73-76 (the OO/PO & I had to change them out when the original cranks broke over time & use); & mine also has the "early" 70-72 rear single-bleeder calipers & the "late" 73-76 double-bleeder front calipers.

I know what was on my 73 2L from the start, since I'm the 2nd owner & I knew the original owner couple too, & they sold it to me at just over 3 years old. It sold new 11/6/72, I first looked at buying it & did a PPI in Nov. 75, & it officially sold 12/26/72 after all the loan & DMV paperwork cleared - at almost 38 months old!

Now we're BOTH well over 42 years old & I have another 20.5 on the 914!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/white914.jpg) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/slits.gif)

Cheers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[pgollender]

Back at the chassis number. I see that a Scott Rose has chassis number according to the data base of 1219535 [Monday, March 16th, 1970]. and VIN # 470.29.5764.

My chassis number is 1239531 [ Wednesday, March 18th, 1970], yet the proposed suggested VIN number is 470.29.5748. So my chassis was #31 on Wednesday, his was #35 earlier, on Monday of the same week.
So a question:
So did the Germans take St. Paddy's day off from work [Tuesday March 17th, 1970)] ? No car production. Like it is an official holiday ? I know they have huge celebrations in Munich every year.
... like the Germans need another excuse to drink beer.
Sorry for the long delay, 2015 was a poor health year for me. Now healthier, I'm determined to get my 1970 finished, on the road very soon and (hopefully) the original VIN number restored.

[Tom_T]

Back at the chassis number. I see that a Scott Rose has chassis number according to the data base of 1219535 [Monday, March 16th, 1970]. and VIN # 470.29.5764.

My chassis number is 1239531 [ Wednesday, March 18th, 1970], yet the proposed suggested VIN number is 470.29.5748. So my chassis was #31 on Wednesday, his was #35 earlier, on Monday of the same week.
So a question:
So did the Germans take St. Paddy's day off from work [Tuesday March 17th, 1970)] ? No car production. Like it is an official holiday ? I know they have huge celebrations in Munich every year.
... like the Germans need another excuse to drink beer.
Sorry for the long delay, 2015 was a poor health year for me. Now healthier, I'm determined to get my 1970 finished, on the road very soon and (hopefully) the original VIN number restored.

NO Paul, the VIN sticker # & date were often out of order from the Chassis #'s date of production, & both were only loosely correct - odd for that predilection for Germanic perfectionism! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

My 73 is VIN dated 1.5 weeks before another member's former 73 2.0, while the VIN # itself & chassis production dates correctly relate to the earlier production on his earlier 2.0.

Plus mine works out to be a 1 day production between my 2 chassis & VIN numbers & VIN date - which makes for an interesting talking point & nonsensical bragging right as: "the world's fastest built 914"! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I didn't re-read your entire thread heree before, but you should have the VIN stamped on the top of the front passenger fender, at a plate on the passenger headlight bucket box - both inside the front trunk; as well as the plate on the driver's windshield A-pillar & the VIN sticker on the driver;s rear door jamb.

So maybe post good hi-rez pics of all of the 4 which you still have on your car to see if anyone can make out the missing digit.

Also - if you have the current &/or prior CA plate number(s), then if you go onto the Cal DMV website, under their forms section, they have an "Information Request Form" that you can fill out & send in the appropriate fee to get them to trace all prior owners in their Sacto microfilm/microfische dead files (IIRC it's $20 per record x how many requested). If they have the records, they'll cash your check & send you records of the owners' info (if they returned the info release) or just general info. (if not agreed) - or they'll return your check & form if nothing is in their files (e.g.: if the car was unregistered in any state for more than 7 years, then they dropped the records storage).

Good Luck! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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[Cairo94507]

Did I miss it or did you call PCNA and check out the COA numbers. Not sure how many Irish Greens would have been made within that 9 numbers you seek. That could potentially eliminate a good amount of them though.

[sixnotfour]

Did he try the Frey method from top and underside....I saw a ground number you couldn't read from the top side but was easily read from underside .... it was a 76 retitled to a 72 in CA..

[pgollender]

Did he try the Frey method from top and underside....I saw a ground number you couldn't read from the top side but was easily read from underside .... it was a 76 retitled to a 72 in CA..

From the original CHP report, he did NOT apply Fry's solution to the inside of the fender well.
I can feel the "embossing" on the inside of the fenderwell, and can see a partial number there. I tried to use tracing paper over the area to get a reverse image but there wasn't enough detail.
I think I might try something pliable like clay or playdough to see if I can get more detail. I can see plainly the reverse image of 470 xx0xx4x when I flash an ordinary flashlight back and forth.
If the playdough doesn't work, I think I will experiment with a magenta filter (filters out green = color of the car)and black or red laser lights to see if I can get more contrast to bring out the missing digits, especially #8.... THEN I will be in business. I just joined PCA so I can pursue Tom and Andy's recommendations, but if I can sleuth it out on my own before asking for the COA, I'll feel that I've done my best research and can get a CHP officer to re-verify and attest to any results that I can produce.

Ya''all know what I'm talking about here. It's no different than any other part of the restoration of our 914's. It's the pain, penance and pride of doing it yourself.
This weekend:
Firing up the rebuild and tuning it from the stand I fabricated:

[pgollender]

After a long slow process of contacting PCNA and seeing if my paint code L60E Irish Green, matched the possible Vin codes 4702905X48, There was no match. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
So I removed the paint underneath the fenderwell with "Aircraft Remover" by Rustoleum.
I Photographed the VIN: It looks like this:

Sure looks like the last numbers are X48, cant really see much detail on 3 digit in, maybe a 5 or 9. Remember these are reversed and upside down since we are looking at the inside of the fenderwell.

Then I traced the numbers with Aluminum foil and just pressure. Ten traces to be exact: All of them appeared to end in 46. With a little scrutiny you can see the "9" in the third digit in from the right



and

. Ten traces but none of them looked like 48 even though the photo looks like 46.
I don't have an "8" on either of my two 914's to compare to see what the exact shape of an "8" is. but the foil clearly shows a "6" in the last digit.
I called PCNA today asking for paint codes for 4702905946. and guess what:

BINGO: (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cheer.gif)

They also supplied a build date April 1970.
My Chassis code = 1239531 which is March 18,1970.
I ordered my COA today to make it official.
Now begins a formal CHP re-investigation so I can get the VIN properly re-stamped and re-registered and on the road again.
Luckily for me I have two good friends that are CHP officers.

[sixnotfour]

Good Job ...

[PancakePorsche]

Shirlock Holmes aint got nothing on you man !

[pgollender]

Reunited and it feels so good !!
(It feels like 1970)

The (California) CHP Auto Theft and Recovery Division has recovered my original Headlight bucket tags and A-pillar tags from a 1973 914 in Bakersfield where my 1970 car was located 20 years ago.
The other owner had my 1970 tags on his 1973, but his shock tower chassis VIN number had not been touched or altered.
The investigating officer discovered the discrepancy between chassis VIN and aluminum VIN tags and removed the tags and returned to me yesterday.



CHP had him re-register his vehicle as a 1973 with his true VIN # (47329255936).

His car had been registered with my VIN for almost 20 years.
No criminal charges were filed.
Here are my original tags, ready to be affixed to it's true owner.


Not sure if I'll ever know the reason why the VIN's were switched, but both car's are no longer orphans and have their true pedigree's restored.

[bretth]

This info is too late but doesn't all 914s have the VIN hand written on the underside of the dash board top? I am amazed you got so much help from the police on this. I thought once they find VIN tampering they start crushing cars without hesitation.

Brett

[pgollender]

This info is too late but doesn't all 914s have the VIN hand written on the underside of the dash board top? I am amazed you got so much help from the police on this. I thought once they find VIN tampering they start crushing cars without hesitation.

Brett

Brett, Not all... my 1970 did NOT have the hand written VIN underneath. My 1971 parts car had the (secret) VIN and well as my 1974. I suspect Hans or Franz at Karmann-Porsche didn't always perform that task 100% of the time. Careful record keeping was more rare in 1970 than is required today.


Although they did originally tell me that crushing a car is still done, the CHP auto theft and recovery division prefers to restore the original VIN if they have good reliable information. In California they can also issue you a "blue tag" which gives the car an alternative new identity.

Additionally if the car was a reported stolen vehicle, you can be held financially liable to reimburse the original owner or insurance company if a loss claim was filed.

I managed to dodge all those bullets. I put on my "polite hat" when dealing with the bureaucracy and was patient and.... I was very fortunate in more than one way, and luckily for me I have a few friends in CHP.

[mepstein]

Congrats (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)