butt head, butt weld.., I need some help Options

[Trekkor]

Looks great. Nice job.

When I said "invisible", I meant areas you cannot see or have to work to see.

In my engine compartment you have to lean over and stick your head down in there to see the seams in my patches.

Bothers some people. Not me... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[MarkV]

Yea, I screwed up and made a bunch of extra work for myself. Once I started there was no turning back.

Now I have to try to clean up all of the weld wire hanging inside the fender. My die grinder will just barely fit in there.

[Mueller]

QUOTE

When I said "invisible", I meant areas you cannot see or have to work to see

to some people it's a "hack" method..whether it'll be seen or not...and yes, I've done a few of those jobs myself (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/welder.gif)

[TravisNeff]

If I go down to 1 or even 1.5 I can see the arc strike and the wire burns up to the nozzle, wire feeds and burns up, so slow I can see and hear it buzz, fizzle, buzz fizzle. I will try the circular motion, same amperage range 1.5-2 and just turn down my wire speed. Again, I am getting blowouts once the arc strikes, when an arc is established and there is no blow out - no problemo' When filling those holes, I shoot at an angle at the corner of the hole, generally blowing yet another hole. Once I get it filled I got a big ole booger of weld to grind down and the penetration is flakey, where you can see voids/seams where each of the welds layer each other.

Thanks all, these are some great ideas. I'll let you know how I progress.

[TravisNeff]

Sorry I should have said low voltage and really low wire feed speed where I can see that buzz, fizzle. I should try lower wire speed like maybe 30 and try at 2 on the voltage. I will also try the super long stickout as well.

[TimT]

If you can see the wire burn up to the nozzle, you either need more wire speed, or less amperage, or a combination thereof. Also reversing polarity may help, but lets not go there just yet (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer.gif)

[Brando]

QUOTE (9146986 @ Feb 14 2005, 07:38 PM)

... A lap weld can be an acceptable repair, as long as the lapped side of the joint isn't exposed to moisture. This is hard to pull off on a floorpan unless the car is on it's side, or upside down. I would NEVER lap weld flairs, I don't car what any body man says. Talk to any quality restoration shop and see what they say.

Why not lap-welf flares on? Just use a flange-tool and flange the metal on the body and lap weld it on both sides (inside and outside). Then grind smooth. Why's that the wrong method?

[Trekkor]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/agree.gif)

I approve that last post!

I've always thought that would be the fastest/strongest method. Seen it more times than not, too.

KT

[TravisNeff]

Ok, so I went down to 1, then .5 on voltage and kept the wire speed up to about 40, ran some butt weld coupons in the vertical position, and doing cirlces.

That all helped well, if I blew a hold Perry's idea of a 3" stickout, hit the hole and move in quick (to normal stickout length) works great.

Penetration got better but not good enough, either slowing way down helped but deposition on the top side increased. Just trying to get the hang of it I was back at the #2 on voltage and 50 on wire feed. Just when I was getting some good runs I ran outta gas.. Damn, I just had that filled 2 weeks ago - last tank did 6X the welding and lasted 3 times longer. Must have gotten a partial filled tank or somethin'

[John Kelly]

QUOTE (Brando @ Feb 15 2005, 08:38 AM)

QUOTE (9146986 @ Feb 14 2005, 07:38 PM) ... A lap weld can be an acceptable repair, as long as the lapped side of the joint isn't exposed to moisture.  This is hard to pull off on a floorpan unless the car is on it's side, or upside down.  I would NEVER lap weld flairs, I don't car what any body man says.  Talk to any quality restoration shop and see what they say. Why not lap-welf flares on? Just use a flange-tool and flange the metal on the body and lap weld it on both sides (inside and outside). Then grind smooth. Why's that the wrong method?

It is not a wrong method, just an inferior method. You can minimize or eliminate the use of filler on a butt-welded panel by using a hammer and dolly, whereas the lapped joint is unworkable and will require more filler. I use lap joints in lots of places, but I try not to on the outside body shell....just a better practice.

John, www.ghiaspecialties.com

[IronHillRestorations]

QUOTE (Brando @ Feb 15 2005, 08:38 AM)

QUOTE (9146986 @ Feb 14 2005, 07:38 PM) ... A lap weld can be an acceptable repair, as long as the lapped side of the joint isn't exposed to moisture.  This is hard to pull off on a floorpan unless the car is on it's side, or upside down.  I would NEVER lap weld flairs, I don't car what any body man says.  Talk to any quality restoration shop and see what they say. Why not lap-welf flares on? Just use a flange-tool and flange the metal on the body and lap weld it on both sides (inside and outside). Then grind smooth. Why's that the wrong method?

A set of steel flairs is going to run around $1000 right? Why scrimp on installation by welding on with a lap joint? Yes it takes more time and talent.

The wheel house area is a high moisture area. You will never get that joint sealed perfectly, water will eventually invade the joint, and it will come back to haunt you. Capillary action will eventually make sure that water will violate the seam.

What's the first thing people who know something about quality restorations do to a flaired car? They reach under the fender and feel the seam. Why? To see if it was done right.

[Trekkor]

Must... resist...debate. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif)

I just want to see one butt joint on the original tub.

I'm out (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

KT

[TravisNeff]

You obviously have missed Zois' avatar, but hey I guess he blacked out that cracker, or he is suffering from some capillary action...

[John Kelly]

QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 16 2005, 03:48 PM)

Must... resist...debate. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) I just want to see one butt joint on the original tub. I'm out (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) KT

I'm guessing if the factory did add-ons (flares?), they butt-welded them. If they didn't they were cutting corners. Don't get me wrong, I believe in being realistic about how much time you can put in (it's just a car)....but there is no superior method to butt-welding in the middle of a panel.

John www.ghiaspecialties.com

[scotty b]

QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 16 2005, 03:48 PM)

Must... resist...debate. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) I just want to see one butt joint on the original tub. I'm out (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) KT

There aren't any butt joints on the car because the panels were stamped as one piece from the factory!! The lapped joints that are there were both faster and provide strength. 1 layer vs. 2, that said butt welding patch panels is my preferd way because of A: cosmetics, B: the rust between layers issue, C: faster is not better,D: thats the way it came !. If you prefer to lap or can't butt weld then go for it. In life you will find that the things that take longer to complete will be better in the end. Ask J-HO errrr J-Lo (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Mueller]

QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 16 2005, 04:48 PM)

Must... resist...debate. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif) I just want to see one butt joint on the original tub. I'm out (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) KT

what you are totally missing here is that the butt welding is for "repairs" or for the added on flares so the the panel appears to be one-piece or seamless....a GT flare does not need the strength the laps would give you...the 914 was spot welded together to save money, how else are you going to spot weld without having overjoining laps.....

Shelby Cobra bodies have the panels butt welded together, I guess they didn't know what they were doing (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

It's job specific on how a method is approched.....

using the excuse the factory did or didn't do it is pretty weak (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/screwy.gif)

[Trekkor]

QUOTE

I'm out

I'm back in... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

Before I go any further, know this: I am not judging or critisizing anyone. Nor am I upset or flaming ( definately not flaming ) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif)
People need to know it's o.k. to do things their way, too.

QUOTE

The wheel house area is a high moisture area. You will never get that joint sealed perfectly, water will eventually invade the joint, and it will come back to haunt you. Capillary action will eventually make sure that water will violate the seam. What's the first thing people who know something about quality restorations do to a flaired car? They reach under the fender and feel the seam. Why? To see if it was done right.

As far as concerns about moisture damage go, what about the fiberglass installs? ( all lapped ) I'm not hearing too much ( read any ) complaints about fenders falling off.
Back to steel...The three really nice flare jobs here in the Bay Area I've seen are all lapped. They look great and you cannot tell unless you feel under there or look.
I try not to do that...

QUOTE

I'm guessing if the factory did add-ons (flares?), they butt-welded them. If they didn't they were cutting corners. Don't get me wrong, I believe in being realistic about how much time you can put in (it's just a car)....but there is no superior method to butt-welding in the middle of a panel.

Guessing? Hmm (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif)
John I saw your video, don't get me wrong. You are a master. The work you do is amazing and inspiring.
Are you working the inside of the panels to hide evidence of body work, too? That would be insane. ( in a good way )

QUOTE

If you prefer to lap or can't butt weld then go for it. In life you will find that the things that take longer to complete will be better in the end.

There are many ways to approach every project.
Budget and time usually influence us
I wasn't willing to spend another 10-20 hours in the battery area just so I could say "look, butt welds".
A non cosmetic area should be a non-issue.
Taking longer doesn't always mean better. Just longer.

QUOTE

It's job specific on how a method is approched..... using the excuse the factory did or didn't do it is pretty weak

Job specific, yes. People using factory tested methods as a base for their restorations and replicas, weak?, not a chance.
Be careful when you perk up the ears of the majority of the car buffs out there. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

I will use whatever methods I deem neccesary to complete my projects. I not a know it all. More of a don't know much at all (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/huh.gif)
Thanks to all for the help and advice. And for threads like this.

KT (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wub.gif)

[John Kelly]

KT,

Thanks for the kudos, but I'm no master...I overlap lots of places, and I don't care what a panel looks like on the inside...I just like to save my best work for the body skin...butt welds are not that much more work and provide a nice smooth surface for filler if you are not going to metal-finish your welds. Lap joints leave an edge into which filler can shrink over time showing the seam. Or, if you flange the lap joint, you run the risk of distorting the panel that is flanged where the seam curves....and use more filler. Just a question of making an informed choice....we all make our own rules in the end. Some of what I do would horrify a concourse judge...do I care? No.

John www.ghiaspecialties.com