a little OT: Early Turbo question, need pointers for upgrades Options

[krk]

Folks,

The actual turbo on my '76 930 has announced its retirement.

The question is what to do. I can spend some cash-o-la on a rebuild of the original turbo, or go with something new (a k27 variant? which one?)

The engine is at 50K, which is about 10K on a rebuild that moved it to 3.2L (7.6 compression, iirc???) Everything else is stock. (It's about to get an oil cooler up grade -- guess what the 40K failure was....)

Anyway, I'm looking for BTDT or opinions on newer turbos, and pointers to conversion info if you have 'em!

'Course, I've attached a pic -- I know it's required, and I don't mind posting pics of my car -- heh. There's a /6 in the background at least, so it's obliquely 914 related.

I posted this to the bird board as well as it's 911 crap, but there's an interesting mix of talent and btdt on this board that might give me answers I won't get there.

Thx for any pointers y'all might have!

kim.

[Andyrew]

Dont know much about those six cylander engine's (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

but in general it would be really good to put a bigger turbo on it if you want some more umph...

What do you primarily do??

Do you MIND that the turbo will spool up at a later time? (it takes longer ie more rpms' to spool a bigger turbo)

I dont know much about those engines like I said, but getting a bigger cold side turbine wheel and housing will produce more boost at roughly the same rpm's (the 944 turbo's need this... But It may be possible that the 911 6's need a bigger hot side to make alot more power...

Dont know about them there tail draggers man!!!

Btw, just upping the boost with freeflowing intake and exhaust on a stock turbo will do wonders. (ie 50+ depending on how much boost).

But the 911 turbo engines where not the engines that where detuned from the factory to make 911's the top dogs (cough 944 turbo's).


There are turbo rebuilders that will grind away at stock turbos to make the housings bigger for more boost (ie more hp) but at a possibility of making more heat and cracking the turbo. Lots of import guys do this to make hp. I know of a couple company's...

Like I said, Im just talking...

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif)

[krk]

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Feb 22 2005, 12:40 AM)

Dont know much about those six cylander engine's (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif) but in general it would be really good to put a bigger turbo on it if you want some more umph... What do you primarily do?? Do you MIND that the turbo will spool up at a later time? (it takes longer ie more rpms' to spool a bigger turbo) I dont know much about those engines like I said, but getting a bigger cold side turbine wheel and housing will produce more boost at roughly the same rpm's (the 944 turbo's need this... But It may be possible that the 911 6's need a bigger hot side to make alot more power... Dont know about them there tail draggers man!!! Btw, just upping the boost with freeflowing intake and exhaust on a stock turbo will do wonders. (ie 50+ depending on how much boost). But the 911 turbo engines where not the engines that where detuned from the factory to make 911's the top dogs (cough 944 turbo's). There are turbo rebuilders that will grind away at stock turbos to make the housings bigger for more boost (ie more hp) but at a possibility of making more heat and cracking the turbo. Lots of import guys do this to make hp. I know of a couple company's... Like I said, Im just talking... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif)

Thx for the comments. I'm not sure I can answer your questions, but I'm happy to talk as well (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

Basically, one hears not-particularly-good commentary about the turbochargers on the early turbos. So that's "fact one" I suppose. Secondly, the engine is now a 3.2L (a so-called short stroke 3.2, if that matters). Compression is up to 7.3, but the cams are stock 3L turbo. (no I don't remember the reasoning right now -- the build was a couple of years ago)

The displacement/compression upgrade was a good move -- the car is much more driveable around town. It's not a track car -- heck, it's not even a daily driver. It sees action weekly tho.

I knew this would happen someday, but like always, I was hoping for "someday but not today".

Well the turbo has failed, and I have to sort it out now -- so I"m rummaging the web and such. And tomorrow I'll start phoning folks I guess (anyone dealt with either Andial or Windward?) to get some other opinions.

kim.

[MJHanna]

have you intercooled it yet? if not most of the other turbos will be for not. I would not go with a bigger turbo unless you intercool it. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif)

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (krk @ Feb 22 2005, 03:31 AM)

...tomorrow I'll start phoning folks I guess (anyone dealt with either Andial or Windward?)

in your part of the world, i'd just call Jerry Woods.

i don't think you're going to get (much of) an intercooler under a '76 deck lid. you could update to a '78 lid i suppose.

[Jeroen]

What Rich said...
or try contacting Imagine Auto

[Bleyseng]

Also, what oil have you been running. Turbo motors are hell on oil, so I hope you have been using Mobil 1 as it doesn't break down like dino oils. Turbo bearings are prone to failure due to using the wrong oil which cakes onto the bearings.

Geoff

[soloracer]

I have a k27/8 on my 944 Turbo. It will support around 330 rwhp. I'm considering selling it to go with an even bigger turbo. It's still on my car and has about 20,000 miles of use. It doesn't smoke and uses no oil. I'll let it go for $1000 obo.

[TimT]

Windward is out of business ( about time those #%$&$^)

anyhoo Durabuild can rebuild, reconfigure the existing turbo ie intall a larger cold side, or hot side. "trim" the turbine etc.

Also intercooler!! you need one

finally some sort of active boost control. this will help keep the wastegate clamped shut, rather than float and bleed off boost.

[fiid]

I'd be willing to bet that you could get a quicker to spool up turbo to replace the original that is capable of producing the same or more boost than the stocker.

If you were doing all the work yourself - I would start by getting a compressor map for the turbo you have and comparing it to the maps of some replacements.

I would bet though that the community (rennlist? pelican boards?) would have a pretty good take on what you should put in there though - so it may not be worth doing all the number work when someone can probably out and out tell you what the best option is.

[iamchappy]

You can purchase a new K27 7200 turbo for around 600.00 thats what I payed for mine, it is a standard upgrade to the 930 turbo, spools faster and is good for around 35 extra horses. was used on the C2s.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...ssPageName=WDVW


His site

http://www.fuelsys.com/

[MJHanna]

QUOTE (iamchappy @ Feb 22 2005, 11:22 AM)

You can purchase a new K27 7200 turbo for around 600.00 thats what I payed for mine, it is a standard upgrade to the 930 turbo, spools faster and is good for around 35 extra horses. was used on the C2s.

Yeah but are you not intercooled on yours??? If your not willing to at least go with the stock intercooler. I sure would not want to boost it any more nor add addtional HP into the mix. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

[TravisNeff]

Is there enough room for an intercooler under the early turbo rear spoiler? If it were me, I wouldn't want to change to the other style, the early tails are soo cool.

[fiid]

got to have the intercooler. Do any of the 911s run Water - air intercoolers with a rad up front?

[ArtechnikA]

QUOTE (fiid @ Feb 22 2005, 01:17 PM)

...Do any of the 911s run Water - air intercoolers with a rad up front?

not for 30 years...

the 934's did, because the FIA Group 4 rules made them run the homologated engine cover. 935's did for maybe one race, then Porsche won their appeal.

i think it'd be a lot less intrusive to just run the '78 (factory 3,3) engine cover than find a set of 934 water/air intercoolers, run pumps and hoses to the front, and install a 934 air dam and radiators...

[Rough_Rider]

Someone raised the point that a bigger turbo equals more HP but at the expense of increased turbo lag. Not necessarily so.

I fitted a vitesse racing turbo to a mates 944T, we get 16psi peak. with boost coming on strong from 2500rpm onwards. Thats better than stock where boost doesn't arrive untill 3000rpm, boost peak is higher & way more power. Circa 350whp, versus the 220crank hp when stock.

The guy at vitesse custom machines each turbo & uses much better bearing than stock to reduce friction. Thye may be able to help you out.
http://www.vitesseracing.com/index.html

[iamchappy]

Depends on what boost you plan on running, 9lbs or less no need to intercool, an intercooler is only about 5 to 10% efficient on low boost applications, if you plan on running more boost then intercooling is a must, the early 930s didn't use them because of the low boost and compression, but an upgrade to a later intercooler and lid is a good idea if you plan on boosting higher with a 1 bar wastegate spring or boost controller , plenty of parts available from those who have upgraded from the stock systems.
I am currently adding an intercooler to my set up as I am increasing boost to 12 to 14lbs. The K27 is a good bolt on replacement for your old turbo, if you go with other manufactured turbos you will probably have to fabricate a new cross over pipe and exhaust. $$$$

[soloracer]

QUOTE (Rough_Rider @ Feb 22 2005, 11:17 AM)

Someone raised the point that a bigger turbo equals more HP but at the expense of increased turbo lag. Not necessarily so. I fitted a vitesse racing turbo to a mates 944T, we get 16psi peak. with boost coming on strong from 2500rpm onwards. Thats better than stock where boost doesn't arrive untill 3000rpm, boost peak is higher & way more power. Circa 350whp, versus the 220crank hp when stock. The guy at vitesse custom machines each turbo & uses much better bearing than stock to reduce friction. Thye may be able to help you out. http://www.vitesseracing.com/index.html

I'm looking at getting John's stage 3 system for my 944 Turbo to replace my k27. What stage did your friend purchase?

[krk]

Thx for the info guys -- as usual, it's good quality stuff!

I spoke to Scott at ImagineAuto this morning -- his feeling was that the k27 7200 was a sensible upgrade, without regard to running an intercooler or not. But he wanted to talk to Steve (the shop owner) before making a strong recommendation. (his personal experience was that the k27 upgrade was a good one for his car -- boost came on 400-500 rpm earlier)

I'm not running an intercooler today -- I love the early tail (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wub.gif) and am reluctant to swap in the tea tray, even though it would obviously increase the HP of the car.

Actually, I wasn't planning on increasing the HP anytime soon -- but since I have to replace the turbocharger anyway ..... surely this isn't a slippery slope.... heh -- but as I said, I'm actually more interested in upgrading the brakes and wheels to make it a bit better on the handling front. Oh, and upgrading the oil cooler. So the turbocharger is an accidental upgrade, but I'm trying to be not-stupid about it.

Oh, someone asked me if I'm doing the work -- no, I don't do much on this car except wash it. Hm. Actually, these days, that's about all I do with any car. (Sigh.)

Anyway, thx for the comments -- they are quite helpful, and I'll post more when I have it.

kim.