Which Sterter Solenoid?, Looking to remedy the infamous hot-start issue Options

[HalfMoon]

Local parts stores emplyee's often won"t know what to look for without a part number or year/make/model.
Not sure if the one pictured in a previous post was the ford relay.
Anyone know this information?

[Mark Henry]

Local parts stores emplyee's often won"t know what to look for without a part number or year/make/model.
Not sure if the one pictured in a previous post was the ford relay.
Anyone know this information?

You need to find a FLAPS that have counter persons that are not total fuching morons.
It's a standard solenoid used on fords from 1964 to 1989 on about a 1000 models of ford cars trucks.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/www.autorewire.com-26-1436026057.1.jpg)

https://www.google.ca/search?q=ford+fender+...id+&imgrc=_

[stugray]

I've often heard them used synonymously, so correct me if I'm wrong. But you guys are talking about a Ford solenoid relay, correct? A solenoid is an mechanical lever that is electronically activated (i.e. the trunk "pop" solenoid"). The relay is an electrical component that helps deliver high power to a given component by way of battery power and a low-power signal, correct?

Just to totally derail the conversation (but Stus good at that):
Every Electromechanical Relay has a solenoid inside it that actuates the mechanism. A solenoid is just as simple as a steel core with a coil wrapped around it.

What we call the "solenoid" when talking about the starter by itself - is Both a mechanical Solenoid that engages the bendix to push the starter gear against the flywheel AND an electrical Relay that passes current to the starter windings.

SO in a standard setup, the ignition switch (key) carries greater than 9 Amps (IIRC) to engage the starter solenoid and the Starter Solenoid carries the > 65 AMPS to drive the starter.

When we talk about adding the Ford relay it is installed to reduce the > 9 AMps through the Ignition switch down to more manageable levels like 1-2 Amps.

So once you install the Ford relay the system works like this:
Ignition switch passes ~3 AMps to engage Ford Relay
Ford Relay engages passing > 9 Amps to Starter Solenoid
Starter Solenoid engages pressing Bendix against Flywheel AND Passing > 65 AMps to Starter windings spinning the starter.
So it goes Key - > Relay -> Solenoid (Bigger Relay) -> Starter.

[Kansas 914]

So once you install the Ford relay the system works like this:
Ignition switch passes ~3 AMps to engage Ford Relay
Ford Relay engages passing > 9 Amps to Starter Solenoid
Starter Solenoid engages pressing Bendix against Flywheel AND Passing > 65 AMps to Starter windings spinning the starter.
So it goes Key - > Relay -> Solenoid (Bigger Relay) -> Starter.

Well put!

[ThePaintedMan]

LOL, thanks for clarifying that Mark and Stu! I grew up with Fords and always remember the old mechanics calling that "thing" mounted on the inner fender a solenoid... which confused me, because I knew that solenoids were located on the starter itself... but I never questioned them. Glad I didn't because I was wrong.... sorta.

So in a way, you're proposing adding a solenoid which activates a larger solenoid (the one on the starter which moves the bendix).

I get it now... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[NFBrown]

I've been wondering why once in a while I get a click but no starter even though The battery seems ok. I know the Ford relay well; The one on my 1987 F150 used to stick on and required whacking to make the starter stop.

Ask for a relay for a 1987 Ford F150 with a 300 cubic inch six cylinder. Guess I better go buy one.

Nick

[rick 918-S]

I chased that rabbit down the hole. Here's what I ended up doing. BTW: Thanks to Ed Morrow the best long distance trouble shooter ever! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif)

Finished up Sandy's car last year in time to drive to Moab for the RRC. Starter failed on the way home. It was fall so we put the car away until spring. Spring rolls around and I put a starter in from Orielly's. and headed for the Route 66 event in Palm Springs. Starter failed as I neared Vegas or... so I thought. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Stopped in Vegas and picked up a warrantee starter and changed it. Worked for the weekend. Failed in PS. Left the car there and flew home. Came back a month later and picked up the car and it started. Got the WCR and it quit again. worked off and on all weekend and for the drive home.

Thought I just got a bad starter again. Picked up a Bosch re-man and swapped out the Orielly's unit. Worked but barely. Added a hot start solenoid, No Joy.

Called Ed, he say's take a jumper cable and connect it from your negative post to the starter. WHAM!!! it starts like new!

Cables were factory and looked clean and nice. Cali car with clean grounds, New braided ground strap.

I replaced the negative cable to the body and the starter still didn't work. I then replaced the positive cable and WHAM! perfect!

So my advise, Before changing anything us the "ED" test method! Then change the cables first, not last!

[screenguy914]

To summarize the various posts on the subject, the pictured Ford starter solenoid is redundant and thus overkill for the type of starter system on a 914. A HD relay is all that is needed to provide full battery voltage to energize the factory-mounted solenoid.

Most starter motor assemblies use a solenoid mounted on the motor with linkage to move the flywheel pinion gear into mesh with the flywheel while at the same time energizing the motor. Older Fords used a Bendix drive motor that moves the pinion gear without need for linkage, thus a separate solenoid to merely energize the motor.

<1964 Ford starter


The following is a link to install a remote relay on a 911 (not different). The purpose was two-fold; 1) to reduce wear on the ignition switch (NLA and thus expensive) and 2) to eliminate voltage drop and insure a full 12 volt source signal to the starter solenoid to consistently energize the starter. http://members.rennlist.com/911pcars/RemoteStarter.htm

Sherwood

[Tom]

The ford solenoid, ( in this case used as a relay ), is doing exactly the same thing as stated in the link you posted. Perhaps you misunderstood it's use.
Tom

[screenguy914]

The ford solenoid, ( in this case used as a relay ), is doing exactly the same thing as stated in the link you posted. Perhaps you misunderstood it's use.
Tom

I think you were directing your response to what I wrote.

You're correct in that the Ford remote solenoid does the same thing as a relay. However, it's designed carry starter motor current (e.g. 100+ amps), massive overkill to send a low current (3-5A) control signal to the starter-mounted solenoid. A $4 Bosch relay is all one needs to shorten the source path to the starter solenoid, but up to you.

Imagine using multiple Ford solenoids instead of round Bosch relays to energize the vehicle horns, turn signal system, fuel pump etc. It's like using battery cable to replace 14-16 ga. circuit wire in the electrical system. Again, up to you.

[Geezer914]

I just did this. I used an SS571 Standard Motor products 6Volt solenoid. Works great! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif)

[Jeffs9146]

I've often heard them used synonymously, so correct me if I'm wrong. But you guys are talking about a Ford solenoid relay, correct? A solenoid is an mechanical lever that is electronically activated (i.e. the trunk "pop" solenoid"). The relay is an electrical component that helps deliver high power to a given component by way of battery power and a low-power signal, correct?

Just to totally derail the conversation (but Stus good at that):
Every Electromechanical Relay has a solenoid inside it that actuates the mechanism. A solenoid is just as simple as a steel core with a coil wrapped around it.

What we call the "solenoid" when talking about the starter by itself - is Both a mechanical Solenoid that engages the bendix to push the starter gear against the flywheel AND an electrical Relay that passes current to the starter windings.

SO in a standard setup, the ignition switch (key) carries greater than 9 Amps (IIRC) to engage the starter solenoid and the Starter Solenoid carries the > 65 AMPS to drive the starter.

When we talk about adding the Ford relay it is installed to reduce the > 9 AMps through the Ignition switch down to more manageable levels like 1-2 Amps.

So once you install the Ford relay the system works like this:
Ignition switch passes ~3 AMps to engage Ford Relay
Ford Relay engages passing > 9 Amps to Starter Solenoid
Starter Solenoid engages pressing Bendix against Flywheel AND Passing > 65 AMps to Starter windings spinning the starter.
So it goes Key - > Relay -> Solenoid (Bigger Relay) -> Starter.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

I like to think of it as increasing the source power from the ignition by sending more power to the starter trigger.

[sean_v8_914]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif)

[Mark Henry]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead horse.gif)

No....it's beating a dead starter (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)