/6 loud noise after rebuild, with video Options

[tornik550]

Obviously at this point I just need to leave my engine work to the pro's however I simply enjoy working on the engine.

I rebuilt my /6 engine as a 9.5:1 compression 2.7l. When I first put the engine in the car and tried to start it a few months back, I had found that my kids managed to get a 13mm into the #5 cylinder which damaged the head. I had the head repaired and put everything back together and started the engine. It starts ok however there is a very loud noise which is obvious in the video.

Background- I put oil fed tensioners in as part of the upgrade. I did not prime them with oil on installation. When I had my issue with a mug in cyl #5, I did not replace the piston cause there was minimal visible damage. There was no apparent damage to the cylinder jug. I did not check the con rod cause I didn't remove the cylinder and piston when I was fixing this issue.

Any ideas of what could be the issue? To me, it sounds like the chain is rubbing on the case or something like that. It is so loud though that I cannot really tell where it is coming from other than the drivers side of the engine. My big concern is- did I damage my con rod when I had my 13mm in cyl 5 issue. I did the test where you pull the spark plug wire on the cylinder that has the con rod issue and there was no difference in the sound.

http://youtu.be/X7Y2XqGN3Fc

[Mark Henry]

Hard to tell because it doesn't run long enough, but first guess is the tensioners are slack.

[tornik550]

I suspected the tensioners also. It does sound like it's coming from the front of the engine so that would make sense. How can I check to see if it actually is the tensioners.

[Luke M]

That's the timing chains slapping around and most likely hitting the cam housings inside. Did you upgrade the idlers to the late style or use the spacers if old style?
All the chain ramps in the right place and facing the right way?
Did you prime the tensioners prior to installing them?
Where the chains tight when you put it together ?
Worn chains ?

Put the plug back in and keep it running for a little longer then take another video.
I bet it's all in the timing chains.

[tornik550]

That's the timing chains slapping around and most likely hitting the cam housings inside. Did you upgrade the idlers to the late style or use the spacers if old style?
All the chain ramps in the right place and facing the right way?
Did you prime the tensioners prior to installing them?
Where the chains tight when you put it together ?
Worn chains ?

Put the plug back in and keep it running for a little longer then take another video.
I bet it's all in the timing chains.

I used old style idlers and I did use spacers. The ramps are going the right direction. I DID NOT PRIME THE TENSIONERS prior to installation. This is my first /6 rebuild so I am not sure about the tightness of the chains. They seemed tight but could have been much tighter. How do I know if the chains were worn? I didn't see visible wear on them.

[Luke M]

That's the timing chains slapping around and most likely hitting the cam housings inside. Did you upgrade the idlers to the late style or use the spacers if old style?
All the chain ramps in the right place and facing the right way?
Did you prime the tensioners prior to installing them?
Where the chains tight when you put it together ?
Worn chains ?

Put the plug back in and keep it running for a little longer then take another video.
I bet it's all in the timing chains.

I used old style idlers and I did use spacers. The ramps are going the right direction. I DID NOT PRIME THE TENSIONERS prior to installation. This is my first /6 rebuild so I am not sure about the tightness of the chains. They seemed tight but could have been much tighter. How do I know if the chains were worn? I didn't see visible wear on them.

You need to prime the tensioners to get any air out of them. Best way to do this is submerge them in a clean bucket with new oil and push the piston in and release a few times. keep doing this until there's no more bubbles coming from the feed port. The chain are hard to tell if they are worn out just by looking at them. The best way to tell is by watching to see how far up/out the tensioner piston goes. If there's a lot of the piston showing then more then likely the chains are streached too much. The tensioners may reach their extend limit and you will still have chain slack. I always replace the chains in a rebuild . They aren't that much and a real pain if you have to later deal with it. If you do have worn chains you could get the master link type but I do not like using them. Take the chain covers off and look at thinks closely. Take pics too and post them. You maybe able to see where the chains are hitting as well. I wouldn't run the engine too long if the chain are rubbing against the housings. You will have metal shavings in your oil too.
The other thing I forgot to mention in crack the feed line to the tensioner ports and turn the engine over (do not start it so disable ignition) make sure you have pressure/oil coming out.

[tornik550]

That's the timing chains slapping around and most likely hitting the cam housings inside. Did you upgrade the idlers to the late style or use the spacers if old style?
All the chain ramps in the right place and facing the right way?
Did you prime the tensioners prior to installing them?
Where the chains tight when you put it together ?
Worn chains ?

Put the plug back in and keep it running for a little longer then take another video.
I bet it's all in the timing chains.

I used old style idlers and I did use spacers. The ramps are going the right direction. I DID NOT PRIME THE TENSIONERS prior to installation. This is my first /6 rebuild so I am not sure about the tightness of the chains. They seemed tight but could have been much tighter. How do I know if the chains were worn? I didn't see visible wear on them.

You need to prime the tensioners to get any air out of them. Best way to do this is submerge them in a clean bucket with new oil and push the piston in and release a few times. keep doing this until there's no more bubbles coming from the feed port. The chain are hard to tell if they are worn out just by looking at them. The best way to tell is by watching to see how far up/out the tensioner piston goes. If there's a lot of the piston showing then more then likely the chains are streached too much. The tensioners may reach their extend limit and you will still have chain slack. I always replace the chains in a rebuild . They aren't that much and a real pain if you have to later deal with it. If you do have worn chains you could get the master link type but I do not like using them. Take the chain covers off and look at thinks closely. Take pics too and post them. You maybe able to see where the chains are hitting as well. I wouldn't run the engine too long if the chain are rubbing against the housings. You will have metal shavings in your oil too.
The other thing I forgot to mention in crack the feed line to the tensioner ports and turn the engine over (do not start it so disable ignition) make sure you have pressure/oil coming out.

Is it difficult to remove the chain housing covers with the engine in the car? Seems easy?

[Luke M]

That's the timing chains slapping around and most likely hitting the cam housings inside. Did you upgrade the idlers to the late style or use the spacers if old style?
All the chain ramps in the right place and facing the right way?
Did you prime the tensioners prior to installing them?
Where the chains tight when you put it together ?
Worn chains ?

Put the plug back in and keep it running for a little longer then take another video.
I bet it's all in the timing chains.

I used old style idlers and I did use spacers. The ramps are going the right direction. I DID NOT PRIME THE TENSIONERS prior to installation. This is my first /6 rebuild so I am not sure about the tightness of the chains. They seemed tight but could have been much tighter. How do I know if the chains were worn? I didn't see visible wear on them.

You need to prime the tensioners to get any air out of them. Best way to do this is submerge them in a clean bucket with new oil and push the piston in and release a few times. keep doing this until there's no more bubbles coming from the feed port. The chain are hard to tell if they are worn out just by looking at them. The best way to tell is by watching to see how far up/out the tensioner piston goes. If there's a lot of the piston showing then more then likely the chains are streached too much. The tensioners may reach their extend limit and you will still have chain slack. I always replace the chains in a rebuild . They aren't that much and a real pain if you have to later deal with it. If you do have worn chains you could get the master link type but I do not like using them. Take the chain covers off and look at thinks closely. Take pics too and post them. You maybe able to see where the chains are hitting as well. I wouldn't run the engine too long if the chain are rubbing against the housings. You will have metal shavings in your oil too.
The other thing I forgot to mention in crack the feed line to the tensioner ports and turn the engine over (do not start it so disable ignition) make sure you have pressure/oil coming out.

Is it difficult to remove the chain housing covers with the engine in the car? Seems easy?

Easily done in the car. Remove the front engine tin, tensioner hard lines, all the nuts/bolts to the covers, and remove. When you go to install the covers you will need new gaskets, maybe new tensioner inlet port o-ring & crush washers. Take a real good look at the travel of the tensioner pistons. See how far out they are compared to how far they are when removed. That should give you an idea how much the chains have stretched. Whatever you do try to keep the chains from jumping time. Mark everything before you remove the tensioners. If all possible keep some tension on the chain idler arms.

[sixnotfour]

recheck your valve lash first

[Luke M]

recheck your valve lash first

I maybe hearing things wrong but I heard a different pitch sound which led me to the chains. To me when the engine shuts down sounds like chains slapping. The rockers/valve lash needs to be adjusted that I heard. Did you Install that plug/wire and run it again?

[rudedude]

Did you check the alignment of the cam sprockets before assembly? If spacing isn't correct I think the chain can rub on case

[tornik550]

Just popped off the valve covers. Looks like the exhaust valve adjuster on cyl 4 backed out. Not sure how that happened but at least that's an easy fix.

[Luke M]

Just popped off the valve covers. Looks like the exhaust valve adjuster on cyl 4 backed out. Not sure how that happened but at least that's an easy fix.

How's it sound now with the rockers adjusted ?
Can you hear any chain slap?

[tornik550]

Just popped off the valve covers. Looks like the exhaust valve adjuster on cyl 4 backed out. Not sure how that happened but at least that's an easy fix.

How's it sound now with the rockers adjusted ?
Can you hear any chain slap?

I haven't had a chance to get everything adjusted yet. I'll post an update when I do.

[Mark Henry]

There is also a mod to make your hydraulic tensioners fail proof .

Look at post #43 here:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...r-update-3.html

[euro911]

Install the little collars on the tensioners so if they ever did fail (hydraulically), they still keep adequate tension on the chains.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/forums.pelicanparts.com-7300-1436636652.1.jpg)

[tornik550]

I corrected the valve lash, bolted everything then started it. Still mad the same noise. I then took off the drivers side tensioner hoisin cover (I could hear the sound was coming from that side). The chain was very tense (no slack) so I would doubt that it was an issue with the tensioners not being primed. I did not see any metal shavings and couldn't find any rub marks.

One thing that I did find was that the chain was touching the chain guide. I thought there should be at least a little space between the chain and guide. I would assume that could make the noise. Is it normal that the chain rests on the guide? I would have to reference a book and check tomorrow to see if I have the chain guide installed in the right direct- if the guide was in backwards could that cause the noise?

[Mark Henry]

Install the little collars on the tensioners so if they ever did fail (hydraulically), they still keep adequate tension on the chains.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/uploads_offsite/forums.pelicanparts.com-7300-1436636652.1.jpg)

He said he has the "oil fed tensioners", I'm assuming Carrera tensioners, so those collars will not work.

The mod link I posted is the only way I know to do the pressure fed style Carrera tentioners.

[Luke M]

I corrected the valve lash, bolted everything then started it. Still mad the same noise. I then took off the drivers side tensioner hoisin cover (I could hear the sound was coming from that side). The chain was very tense (no slack) so I would doubt that it was an issue with the tensioners not being primed. I did not see any metal shavings and couldn't find any rub marks.

One thing that I did find was that the chain was touching the chain guide. I thought there should be at least a little space between the chain and guide. I would assume that could make the noise. Is it normal that the chain rests on the guide? I would have to reference a book and check tomorrow to see if I have the chain guide installed in the right direct- if the guide was in backwards could that cause the noise?

The long side of the rail goes to the gear and make sure you're set square to the chains. Only one bolt has the snap retainer to locate the ramp with.
With a light you can see the nipple from the bolt through the back side of the rail on both bolts. Make sure the ramps are all mounted this way. Google the ramp install direction for pics.

https://books.google.com/books?id=rOKlQ0ZzL...ion&f=false

[tornik550]

I took a picture just before I put the housing covers on and installed the engine. It looks like the ramp in question is pointing the correct direction. Does everything look right in the picture? The red arrow points to the area where the ramp touches the chain. Could that be causing the noise?