Finishing A 914-6 GT Conversion Project, Great Start, But The Devil Is In The Details! Options

[Larmo63]

Wow, looks great. Fun thread to read and a nice car to look at!

[Lucky9146]

Thanks Larmo63! I have been following your thread as well and can relate to your ups and downs. I see your engine is going in soon. Best of luck!!


As mentioned earlier my engine sat for years and that is not good it appears for rockers and cam shafts.
No pic of cams (very very minor on cams but going to DC 40's anyway) and here is my worst case rockers....



Reconditioned rockers from Henry Schmidt via Ken @ 911 Vintage in Fallbrook CA.
Apparently Henry is doing rockers for Nascar and has developed a great process.

And if you have not met Ken he is a great guy and I always enjoy the drive up for the in person experience and a poke around his shop.
Ugh! Another unplanned expense!





Decided to do new timing chains. why not?
Seems like everything else is being changed out! Simple operation and worth every penny of insurance. Basic stuff I know but there may be those out there that have not done some of it. In fact this was my first timing chain change out on a 3.0.



Just feed the new chains through following the old chains out using the new master links and good to go!

[Lucky9146]

The cam housings had cracked and peeling sealant on the thru pins on the back sides so the recommendation is JB Weld as a similar material used by the factory originally.



Unfortunately I put it on a bit thick and then had to file it down as there was not enough clearance with the cylinders/ heads.

[Lucky9146]

Cam tower cleaning and prep was a very tedious process. There is no laquer thinner, carb cleaner, gas, paint thinner or whatever else I tried that I know of that will take that Locktite 472 crap off.



A buddy of mine has a surface plate so I used 320 sand paper to clean the Locktite 472 off of them and of course this also helped ensure flatness too.

There were many more cleanings after the sanding operation. Ugh!

Before and after pics:

[914forme]

Keep it up, answering a lot of questions I will more than likely have myself.

BTW, seeing you grind the chain with an un protected hand, brings back painful memories.

[Lucky9146]

Keep it up, answering a lot of questions I will more than likely have myself.

BTW, seeing you grind the chain with an un protected hand, brings back painful memories.

Stephen thanks for the encouragement and good point on the grinding!

My original muffler plan was to rework this older 911 muffler 2 in 1 out by re-positioning the tail pipe for 914-6. I was also considering hollowing it out as well but never got that far. Decided that since I am in this deep that I would just treat myself to a new Dansk. Got a decent deal on Ebay.

Then since I had ceramic coated the one for my SC I did this one too. I know it is not stock looking but neither is the rest of the car and I like the look. Matches the ceramic coated headers but muffler has a better finish.

[Lucky9146]

I learned that the carbs, although they had been serviced by one of the best, Performance Oriented, that the throttle shafts “might be OK to run”.

How this all came about is one day I decided to contact Performance Oriented via e-mail explain my situation and how I had acquired the carbs to see if he had any records since I had the SN’s and because I knew the PO had sent them there years ago. I wanted to know jetting and just general info if available.

Shocking, Paul got back to me in like 45 minutes with a complete written rundown on the carbs. from July 2011 with venturis, jetting, emulsion tubes, main air correction jest and idle jets. And it was that very last sentence in his email where he said “they were very worn & I performed a ‘best effort’ to tune them” that really hit me. I called Paul we talked at length, very knowledgeable engineer type and very thorough. Paul explained that basically the “throttle shafts were at the end of their serviceable life” and they would be ok for a while but I might have trouble keeping them tuned.

Once again something seemingly so ready to go had a problem. I didn’t feel comfortable with this information and felt it needed addressing.

Back story here was that I had years ago a 69 912 with Solex’s that had worn throttle shafts and I fought those damn air leaks for way too long so I decided to nip this one in the bud.

Here is what they looked like before sending off. They looked great! Well they had oxidized some.



Here they are back all done. Completely re-jetted, oxidation gone, new long shafts, OEM throttle valves, and shaft couplings.
Resealed and tested!
Hopefully this will make for less sorting out.

[porschetub]

[quote name='Lucky9146' date='Aug 19 2017, 05:23 AM' post='2518353']
Thanks Larmo63! I have been following your thread as well and can relate to your ups and downs. I see your engine is going in soon. Best of luck!!


As mentioned earlier my engine sat for years and that is not good it appears for rockers and cam shafts.
No pic of cams (very very minor on cams but going to DC 40's anyway) and here is my worst case rockers....



Reconditioned rockers from Henry Schmidt via Ken @ 911 Vintage in Fallbrook CA.
Apparently Henry is doing rockers for Nascar and has developed a great process.

Quote

Great build going well,did you find what caused the galling on the rocker arms? blocked oil spray rail or wrong oil maybe ?,would be interested to know,cheers.

[mepstein]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Lucky9146]

[quote name='porschetub' date='Aug 19 2017, 03:22 PM' post='2518781']
[quote name='Lucky9146' date='Aug 19 2017, 05:23 AM' post='2518353']
Thanks Larmo63! I have been following your thread as well and can relate to your ups and downs. I see your engine is going in soon. Best of luck!!


As mentioned earlier my engine sat for years and that is not good it appears for rockers and cam shafts.
No pic of cams (very very minor on cams but going to DC 40's anyway) and here is my worst case rockers....



Reconditioned rockers from Henry Schmidt via Ken @ 911 Vintage in Fallbrook CA.
Apparently Henry is doing rockers for Nascar and has developed a great process.

Quote

Great build going well,did you find what caused the galling on the rocker arms? blocked oil spray rail or wrong oil maybe ?,would be interested to know,cheers.
[/quote]

____________________________________________________
porschetub
Thank you on the build comment.
Unfortunately that is not galling. That my friend is pitting. Best I can tell from research I did is that it was caused by:
A. Mostly sitting
B. Lack of oil changes (contaminates in the oil eating the metal)

Best I got hope it helps. Thanks for looking

[forrestkhaag]

Great to see brain damage similar to mine on the way to a screaming 3.0 Weber driven 914.

Do what you have to do and build to the highest bar your budget will allow.

Once you crack open the case halves, replace everything and sleep like a baby.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[forrestkhaag]

and finishing?.......... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) Never finished......

[porschetub]

Exactly ,all that final stuff ....takes for ever,then the oil leaks come later (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) .

[Lucky9146]

Great to see brain damage similar to mine on the way to a screaming 3.0 Weber driven 914.

Do what you have to do and build to the highest bar your budget will allow.

Once you crack open the case halves, replace everything and sleep like a baby.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

Yes forrestkhaag misery loves company and there may well be brain damage involved! Thanks for the post and I like the looks of your engine.

To reinterate the point here I started the engine late April and did not start posting again to my thread till about Aug 15th so most of the work on engine build is done now, case splittting ship has sailed. I had not posted during the April to Aug time frame cuz progress just seemed so darn slow with so many set backs and I didn't really have the time or inclinaton to post so I am trying, with still limited time, to bring the thead up to date. In some ways it is a better perspective with before and after pics. And I happen to be waiting on parts again!

I based my decision not to split the case on the health of the cam bearings and rod bearings and group think that the bottom ends are pretty stout and good for several thousand miles. Glad you did tho and hope like hell I made the right decision. Might not be sleeping like a baby.
____________________________________________________________
After an enormous amount of research, cleaning and prep, and parts gathering, the reassembly finally begins July 5. But there was one final delay to get to this point of actually putting the cylinders on. I opened up the Victor Reinz gasket kit and found the cylinder base gaskets were black! I decided to go with some expert advice and order the copper cylinder base gaskets, as opposed to the black. Once more thought I was ready to go only to have to wait for more new parts to arrive. Ugh! Long time Porsche engine builder friend says he does not like the black ones and relies only on the copper. I am not going to argue!
First piston and cylinder here we go….



Pistons and cylinders on and secure. This is a good point to mention the cooling shrouds being installed correctly. They say if installed upside down it can lead to over heating and the that design change that was made to remove material about 1977 supposedly lowers engine temp 15 degrees. And, it is easy to put them in upside down! Oh and you really can’t get them off to fix it later as the drain tubes are in the way. Word to the wise.

[earossi]

Thanks Larmo63! I have been following your thread as well and can relate to your ups and downs. I see your engine is going in soon. Best of luck!!


As mentioned earlier my engine sat for years and that is not good it appears for rockers and cam shafts.
No pic of cams (very very minor on cams but going to DC 40's anyway) and here is my worst case rockers....



Reconditioned rockers from Henry Schmidt via Ken @ 911 Vintage in Fallbrook CA.
Apparently Henry is doing rockers for Nascar and has developed a great process.

And if you have not met Ken he is a great guy and I always enjoy the drive up for the in person experience and a poke around his shop.
Ugh! Another unplanned expense!





Decided to do new timing chains. why not?
Seems like everything else is being changed out! Simple operation and worth every penny of insurance. Basic stuff I know but there may be those out there that have not done some of it. In fact this was my first timing chain change out on a 3.0.






Just feed the new chains through following the old chains out using the new master links and good to go!

First off, you are doing a great job on this rebuild. I'm loving the attention to cleanliness which is key to a great build. Having spent hours cleaning parts on my 3.6 build for my 993, I really appreciate what you are doing.

Second, comments on the pitted rockers. As you noted, this was probably due to leaving the engine with old oil inn it for a long period of time. Since one of the products of combustion is sulfurous acid, it's imperative that oil be changed on a regular basis......not necessarily mileage. As I've seen many places, oil needs to be changed annually or every xxxx miles; whichever comes first. So, the pitting is corrosion and the only way to prevent it is to keep the oil clean. That's why it is best to change out oil just before putting your car away for the winter months or for any extended storage period.

Galling is another thing and is usually due to the poor formulations of today's oils. It's been explained ad nausium the cause of galling; but, the thing to remember is to run an oil that higher levels of ZDDP. You need at least 1300 ppm of that additive to prevent galling of the rockers. To get those levels, you need to run oils meant for off road or racing use. You can also get the correct level of ZDDP by running Mobil 1 V-Twin, which is their oil formulation for motorcycles. Since motorcycles do not need catalytic mufflers, the higher additive levels are permitted.

On my teardown of a 3.6 motor from my 993, there was significant evidence of galling on a number of lobes of one of the cams. That was at 107k miles. All the bearings in that motor were perfect which is an indication that oil changes were proper. Research showed that galling failures are beginning to be seen in the air cooled motors.

One question: Since you elected to split the case of your motor, why did you opt for split cam chains? There is nothing wrong with the chains that have a removable link, but the continuous chain eliminates the potential for the link coming loose.

[Lucky9146]

First off, you are doing a great job on this rebuild. I'm loving the attention to cleanliness which is key to a great build. Having spent hours cleaning parts on my 3.6 build for my 993, I really appreciate what you are doing.

Second, comments on the pitted rockers. As you noted, this was probably due to leaving the engine with old oil inn it for a long period of time. Since one of the products of combustion is sulfurous acid, it's imperative that oil be changed on a regular basis......not necessarily mileage. As I've seen many places, oil needs to be changed annually or every xxxx miles; whichever comes first. So, the pitting is corrosion and the only way to prevent it is to keep the oil clean. That's why it is best to change out oil just before putting your car away for the winter months or for any extended storage period.

Galling is another thing and is usually due to the poor formulations of today's oils. It's been explained ad nausium the cause of galling; but, the thing to remember is to run an oil that higher levels of ZDDP. You need at least 1300 ppm of that additive to prevent galling of the rockers. To get those levels, you need to run oils meant for off road or racing use. You can also get the correct level of ZDDP by running Mobil 1 V-Twin, which is their oil formulation for motorcycles. Since motorcycles do not need catalytic mufflers, the higher additive levels are permitted.

On my teardown of a 3.6 motor from my 993, there was significant evidence of galling on a number of lobes of one of the cams. That was at 107k miles. All the bearings in that motor were perfect which is an indication that oil changes were proper. Research showed that galling failures are beginning to be seen in the air cooled motors.

One question: Since you elected to split the case of your motor, why did you opt for split cam chains? There is nothing wrong with the chains that have a removable link, but the continuous chain eliminates the potential for the link coming loose.

Thanks for the encouragement and for all your input on oil and all. That is what so great about this site is you can learn something every day.

To your question, Um, my last post earlier today talks about my decision NOT to split the case and why and so, you are correct, I could have just done solid chains had I split the case. Hope I made the right choice in not splitting. Had some expert guidance in my decision.
Thanks again for looking!

[earossi]

First off, you are doing a great job on this rebuild. I'm loving the attention to cleanliness which is key to a great build. Having spent hours cleaning parts on my 3.6 build for my 993, I really appreciate what you are doing.

Second, comments on the pitted rockers. As you noted, this was probably due to leaving the engine with old oil inn it for a long period of time. Since one of the products of combustion is sulfurous acid, it's imperative that oil be changed on a regular basis......not necessarily mileage. As I've seen many places, oil needs to be changed annually or every xxxx miles; whichever comes first. So, the pitting is corrosion and the only way to prevent it is to keep the oil clean. That's why it is best to change out oil just before putting your car away for the winter months or for any extended storage period.

Galling is another thing and is usually due to the poor formulations of today's oils. It's been explained ad nausium the cause of galling; but, the thing to remember is to run an oil that higher levels of ZDDP. You need at least 1300 ppm of that additive to prevent galling of the rockers. To get those levels, you need to run oils meant for off road or racing use. You can also get the correct level of ZDDP by running Mobil 1 V-Twin, which is their oil formulation for motorcycles. Since motorcycles do not need catalytic mufflers, the higher additive levels are permitted.

On my teardown of a 3.6 motor from my 993, there was significant evidence of galling on a number of lobes of one of the cams. That was at 107k miles. All the bearings in that motor were perfect which is an indication that oil changes were proper. Research showed that galling failures are beginning to be seen in the air cooled motors.

One question: Since you elected to split the case of your motor, why did you opt for split cam chains? There is nothing wrong with the chains that have a removable link, but the continuous chain eliminates the potential for the link coming loose.

Thanks for the encouragement and for all your input on oil and all. That is what so great about this site is you can learn something every day.

To your question, Um, my last post earlier today talks about my decision NOT to split the case and why and so, you are correct, I could have just done solid chains had I split the case. Hope I made the right choice in not splitting. Had some expert guidance in my decision.
Thanks again for looking!

I guess I missed seeing your decision to NOT split the case. Normally, splitting the case is only called for on very high mileage engines, or engines that have sustained any internal damage.

Personally, given the corrosion found on your rockers, what assurance do you have that the same pitting is not on the crank main journals? One thing that you can do is to pull the rods to see if there is evidence of pitting on the rod journals.

Normally, the bottom end of these engines are good for over 200k miles if normal oil changes occur.. The only thing that does get more wear are the intermediate shaft bearings.

[porschetub]

I learned that the carbs, although they had been serviced by one of the best, Performance Oriented, that the throttle shafts “might be OK to run”.

How this all came about is one day I decided to contact Performance Oriented via e-mail explain my situation and how I had acquired the carbs to see if he had any records since I had the SN’s and because I knew the PO had sent them there years ago. I wanted to know jetting and just general info if available.

Shocking, Paul got back to me in like 45 minutes with a complete written rundown on the carbs. from July 2011 with venturis, jetting, emulsion tubes, main air correction jest and idle jets. And it was that very last sentence in his email where he said “they were very worn & I performed a ‘best effort’ to tune them” that really hit me. I called Paul we talked at length, very knowledgeable engineer type and very thorough. Paul explained that basically the “throttle shafts were at the end of their serviceable life” and they would be ok for a while but I might have trouble keeping them tuned.

Once again something seemingly so ready to go had a problem. I didn’t feel comfortable with this information and felt it needed addressing.

Back story here was that I had years ago a 69 912 with Solex’s that had worn throttle shafts and I fought those damn air leaks for way too long so I decided to nip this one in the bud.

Here is what they looked like before sending off. They looked great! Well they had oxidized some.



Here they are back all done. Completely re-jetted, oxidation gone, new long shafts, OEM throttle valves, and shaft couplings.
Resealed and tested!
Hopefully this will make for less sorting out.

Strange how someone would shortcut that but really that's were the money is rebuilding them,the rest is rather basic,interesting how the throttle shafts wear more than the bushes....steel on bronze afterall ,did see the same thing was I was engineering on large fishing trawlers.
My Zeniths had wear on the spindles but not the bushes,not a lot but I do have a slight wet spot at those points ,however they have tuned well so happy for the moment,those carbs of yours are jewels ,Paul has a great rep on Pelican well done.

[earossi]

OK, my error. I went back and reviewed the pictures of what I thought was your build, and found that they were pictures from another build.

So, given the corrosion related damage to the cams and the rockers, did you pull the rods and inspect the rod journals? If you did, and you found no indication of the same failure mechanism, then you are probably alright to have not split the case.

How many miles are on the bottom end of the engine?

[Lucky9146]

OK, my error. I went back and reviewed the pictures of what I thought was your build, and found that they were pictures from another build.

So, given the corrosion related damage to the cams and the rockers, did you pull the rods and inspect the rod journals? If you did, and you found no indication of the same failure mechanism, then you are probably alright to have not split the case.

How many miles are on the bottom end of the engine?

No did not pull the bearing caps and as I said in an earlier post I based my decision NOT to split the case on the health of the cam bearings which looked very good as did rod bearings and group think that the bottom ends are pretty stout and good for several thousand miles. The pitting on the cam lobes was very minor it was the rockers that had the most. Hope it was the right decision.

Thanks for your input.