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> Roller lifters, Anyone tried them?
r_towle
post Oct 26 2015, 09:31 PM
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Has anyone tried roller lifters in a type 4, or any flat motor?
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914werke
post Oct 26 2015, 10:39 PM
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toon1
post Oct 26 2015, 11:26 PM
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that was such a cool concept. it would be nice to have a roller setup on the type 4
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Mueller
post Oct 26 2015, 11:50 PM
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QUOTE(toon1 @ Oct 26 2015, 10:26 PM) *

that was such a cool concept. it would be nice to have a roller setup on the type 4



^ditto...

Less friction, more radical profiles and possibly a less noisy or better sounding engine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Mark Henry
post Oct 27 2015, 07:00 AM
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QUOTE(Mueller @ Oct 27 2015, 01:50 AM) *

QUOTE(toon1 @ Oct 26 2015, 10:26 PM) *

that was such a cool concept. it would be nice to have a roller setup on the type 4



^ditto...

Less friction, more radical profiles and possibly a less noisy or better sounding engine (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Less noisy type 4 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/av-943.gif)
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Jake Raby
post Oct 27 2015, 08:21 AM
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I build lots of engines with them. Tons of torque across the entire RPM range. The engine pictured in that thread is still in my Wife's car, and it hasn't been apart since it was built.

It only costs money. Thats all.
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914work
post Oct 27 2015, 08:38 AM
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.. and a vendor willing to sell & support them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)
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Mueller
post Oct 27 2015, 08:47 AM
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QUOTE(914werke @ Oct 27 2015, 07:38 AM) *

.. and a vendor willing to sell & support them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)



I think only available in his fully built motors...so us "normal" folk will never have the chance to purchase them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Pauter sells them, but I have the feeling only all out race motors (and type 1 instead?)

Being that a new solid camshaft kit is $1000 from the TypeIV store, I would venture to say that the roller setup would be minimum 2X that price.

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toon1
post Oct 27 2015, 09:29 AM
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QUOTE(Mueller @ Oct 27 2015, 07:47 AM) *

QUOTE(914werke @ Oct 27 2015, 07:38 AM) *

.. and a vendor willing to sell & support them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)



I think only available in his fully built motors...so us "normal" folk will never have the chance to purchase them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Pauter sells them, but I have the feeling only all out race motors (and type 1 instead?)

Being that a new solid camshaft kit is $1000 from the TypeIV store, I would venture to say that the roller setup would be minimum 2X that price.


Mike, with your design skills and your machine tools, I bet you could do it!
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Mueller
post Oct 27 2015, 09:49 AM
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QUOTE(toon1 @ Oct 27 2015, 08:29 AM) *

QUOTE(Mueller @ Oct 27 2015, 07:47 AM) *

QUOTE(914werke @ Oct 27 2015, 07:38 AM) *

.. and a vendor willing to sell & support them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)



I think only available in his fully built motors...so us "normal" folk will never have the chance to purchase them (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Pauter sells them, but I have the feeling only all out race motors (and type 1 instead?)

Being that a new solid camshaft kit is $1000 from the TypeIV store, I would venture to say that the roller setup would be minimum 2X that price.


Mike, with your design skills and your machine tools, I bet you could do it!



I'm sure I could, but we'll be in flying cars and using jet packs by the time I get it done (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


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Jake Raby
post Oct 27 2015, 12:00 PM
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Selling parts wasn't for me. Took me a decade to figure that out.

My developments have always been for my engines, first, and foremost.... Today, and in the future, engines are my only concern from a sales perspective.
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r_towle
post Oct 27 2015, 07:51 PM
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Roller rockers need bushings, then we just need to find the right size lifters. Hint, mike....hint

The camshaft, from what I have read, it a different flat grind unlike our camshaft which have a leading edge that is higher to creat the twist of the lifter each Time.

I will see if EMW has any experience with these, they do like the 356 lifters for weight, so bushings are not an issue for them.

Rich
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Elliot Cannon
post Oct 27 2015, 09:06 PM
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It would be nice if someone made ceramic lifters again. These have about 25,000 miles on them.


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toon1
post Oct 27 2015, 09:08 PM
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Spoke with a guy today about doing this. He said, for the expense and hassle of doing this, its not worth it.
If it was going in a crazy performance motor, yes, but for normal use, not so much.
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DBCooper
post Oct 27 2015, 09:15 PM
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You'll up your horsepower by what, five percent? Seriously? By ten percent? Ten percent of what? Why exactly, again?
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Dave_Darling
post Oct 28 2015, 09:04 AM
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Mostly so we can use current motor oils without wiping the cams..

--DD
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DBCooper
post Oct 28 2015, 09:38 AM
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QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Oct 28 2015, 08:04 AM) *

Mostly so we can use current motor oils without wiping the cams..

I assume you're talking about solid lifters, not hydraulic? Take a quick look at the experience of the V8 guys with aftermarket solid roller lifters on the street. There are success stories with acceptable longevity, it's true, but there are also a whole lot of horror stories. You may be trading one problem for another that's worse. Proper setup is critical to get the oiling, which may be the reason Jake never sold the solids as parts.

Aren't there high-zinc break-in oils? And I haven't heard bad things about those ceramic lifters, have you? Except for price and availability, of course.
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Jake Raby
post Oct 28 2015, 12:11 PM
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The problems you will have will be with properly centering the lifters to be perpendicular to the cam. Most T4 cases are NOT properly centered with their original lifters. Bushing must be bored for proper alignment, and a special jig is used to align these from the camshaft centerline.

Once you overcome this, the next challenge is properly locking the lifters so you won't experience "cam walk", which occurs when the lifters travel up one side of the lobe, and down the other. What you will find is the factory thrust control deck is not large enough to control this. This holds true, even if you use the 993 layshaft thrust bearings for the job.

I tried factory Ford, Chevy and Mopar lifters. I then tried .742" Harley lifters, before I realized that I simply needed to man up and manufacture a lifter that was the proper diameter, and had an optimum wheel diameter. I spent two years fooling with it, and solved all the problems in just two months when using a proper lifter.

Making this work was one challenge. Making it live was another, and neither was cheap, or easy. The gains in torque can be HUGE as you can lift up to .010" per crank degree after 8*ATDC, which is extreme compared to any flat tappet. It is HELL on rocker arms, and I broke 3 Pauter rockers in 4 months before I went back to stock on my wife's car.

Other than the rockers, that engine has been flawless for the past 7 years, and 40,000 miles. She and I, drove it 14,000 miles in just one year in 2010. It has flat torque from 1500-6K, and is unreal to drive. The oil samples I gain from this engine are better than any other T4 I have ever evaluated, and this holds true with all roller lifter engines I have built.

As far as ceramic lifters go, yes, they are indestructible, and I still have a few seats on my shelf for my own cars. They look perfect after 15 years in a few of my engines that have come back for service. I first used them in 1999, and have NEVER had one fail.

This post has been edited by Jake Raby: Oct 28 2015, 12:15 PM
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r_towle
post Oct 28 2015, 06:54 PM
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So in following my question, you have done this and it worked, fantastic.
Currently we cannot buy either ceramic lifters nor your roller rockers.

So, Mike......we need to figure this out.

Rich
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Jake Raby
post Oct 28 2015, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE(r_towle @ Oct 28 2015, 04:54 PM) *

So in following my question, you have done this and it worked, fantastic.
Currently we cannot buy either ceramic lifters nor your roller rockers.

So, Mike......we need to figure this out.

Rich


May the force be with you. You are going to need it.
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