Has anyone tried roller lifters in a type 4, or any flat motor?

Thread

that was such a cool concept. it would be nice to have a roller setup on the type 4

^ditto...

Less friction, more radical profiles and possibly a less noisy or better sounding engine

Less noisy type 4

I build lots of engines with them. Tons of torque across the entire RPM range. The engine pictured in that thread is still in my Wife's car, and it hasn't been apart since it was built.

It only costs money. Thats all.

.. and a vendor willing to sell & support them

I think only available in his fully built motors...so us "normal" folk will never have the chance to purchase them

Pauter sells them, but I have the feeling only all out race motors (and type 1 instead?)

Being that a new solid camshaft kit is $1000 from the TypeIV store, I would venture to say that the roller setup would be minimum 2X that price.

Mike, with your design skills and your machine tools, I bet you could do it!

I'm sure I could, but we'll be in flying cars and using jet packs by the time I get it done

Selling parts wasn't for me. Took me a decade to figure that out.

My developments have always been for my engines, first, and foremost.... Today, and in the future, engines are my only concern from a sales perspective.

Roller rockers need bushings, then we just need to find the right size lifters. Hint, mike....hint

The camshaft, from what I have read, it a different flat grind unlike our camshaft which have a leading edge that is higher to creat the twist of the lifter each Time.

I will see if EMW has any experience with these, they do like the 356 lifters for weight, so bushings are not an issue for them.

Rich

It would be nice if someone made ceramic lifters again. These have about 25,000 miles on them.

Spoke with a guy today about doing this. He said, for the expense and hassle of doing this, its not worth it.
If it was going in a crazy performance motor, yes, but for normal use, not so much.

You'll up your horsepower by what, five percent? Seriously? By ten percent? Ten percent of what? Why exactly, again?

Mostly so we can use current motor oils without wiping the cams..

--DD

I assume you're talking about solid lifters, not hydraulic? Take a quick look at the experience of the V8 guys with aftermarket solid roller lifters on the street. There are success stories with acceptable longevity, it's true, but there are also a whole lot of horror stories. You may be trading one problem for another that's worse. Proper setup is critical to get the oiling, which may be the reason Jake never sold the solids as parts.

Aren't there high-zinc break-in oils? And I haven't heard bad things about those ceramic lifters, have you? Except for price and availability, of course.

The problems you will have will be with properly centering the lifters to be perpendicular to the cam. Most T4 cases are NOT properly centered with their original lifters. Bushing must be bored for proper alignment, and a special jig is used to align these from the camshaft centerline.

Once you overcome this, the next challenge is properly locking the lifters so you won't experience "cam walk", which occurs when the lifters travel up one side of the lobe, and down the other. What you will find is the factory thrust control deck is not large enough to control this. This holds true, even if you use the 993 layshaft thrust bearings for the job.

I tried factory Ford, Chevy and Mopar lifters. I then tried .742" Harley lifters, before I realized that I simply needed to man up and manufacture a lifter that was the proper diameter, and had an optimum wheel diameter. I spent two years fooling with it, and solved all the problems in just two months when using a proper lifter.

Making this work was one challenge. Making it live was another, and neither was cheap, or easy. The gains in torque can be HUGE as you can lift up to .010" per crank degree after 8*ATDC, which is extreme compared to any flat tappet. It is HELL on rocker arms, and I broke 3 Pauter rockers in 4 months before I went back to stock on my wife's car.

Other than the rockers, that engine has been flawless for the past 7 years, and 40,000 miles. She and I, drove it 14,000 miles in just one year in 2010. It has flat torque from 1500-6K, and is unreal to drive. The oil samples I gain from this engine are better than any other T4 I have ever evaluated, and this holds true with all roller lifter engines I have built.

As far as ceramic lifters go, yes, they are indestructible, and I still have a few seats on my shelf for my own cars. They look perfect after 15 years in a few of my engines that have come back for service. I first used them in 1999, and have NEVER had one fail.

So in following my question, you have done this and it worked, fantastic.
Currently we cannot buy either ceramic lifters nor your roller rockers.

So, Mike......we need to figure this out.

Rich

May the force be with you. You are going to need it.

Sigh...
Right Jake you are the only one smart enough to solve the puzzle.

Since as you have stated you only install this solution in your engines ...
and as you've also stated that the vast majority of those engines dont go into 914s
or stay in the US, why not share some of your knowledge rather than come to this predominantly DIY fourm to beat your breast or guerrilla market your services?

where do you (did you) get Ceramic lifters?

Anyone can do this thats willing to spend enough time and money to stick with it. It may take months, or years to know if it works, and you better have a stock pile of engine cores, and parts that you are willing to throw away.

FYI- 75% of the engines I have on the books now are FOR 914 applications, and all but one is staying in the USA. The applications change like the weather here, sometimes over half of what we are building goes into a beetle, other times a 356.

I am personally building a customer's 2270 T4, and installing it into a 914, and the job will be done by March.



Because I'm an asshole. Now, who wants to argue with that?

75 percent here in 914's? Seriously? How many engines is that? Anyone here know anyone who's buying a Raby engine?

My 2056 is on the dyno as we speak... err, type.
It will be going in my 914.

Well, I am. Jake has my engine too. Pulled it a couple weeks ago to build into his 2270 SR.

This summer I picked up my first 914, a 1973 1.7. The body was in great condition, but I knew I wanted to replace the 1.7 with something with a bit more punch. My son and I are DYIing everything else... interior, body, electrical, even trying my hand a little welding. But for the engine I wanted the best and it's beyond me and my teenage son so we went to see Jake to talk about what he could do.

I have to say that even though he's just declared himself an a-hole, Jake was anything but. He was incredibly generous and gracious with his time; my boy and I ended up spending the better part of a day with him in his workshop looking at cars, talking engines and life in general.

I bought this car as a project for my son and me to have something to bond over as I see him start to pull away into his teenager years. I watched him light up as Jake walked him around the shop, explained how engines work, described what makes an air-cooled engine special, talked about how he was going to get our engine to make more power, and patiently answered every question.

Since then my boy has jumped in to our build with an enthusiasm and passion he typically only shows for video games. Together we got the 1.7 running like a top this summer and there were times when he literally took the wrench out of my hands while doing it. I'm beyond grateful for what Jake did to inspire a 13-year-old like that.

And incidentally, Jud and everyone else we've talked with at RAT are great folks, too. We can't wait to have that Massive Type 4 in our 914!

Click to view attachment
Visit to RAT up in Cleveland, GA

Click to view attachment
Jumping right in

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Engine out, now back to our garage to do the interior and fix some other stuff while we (patiently!) wait for the engine!

A Raby roller motor is the Smoothest type four with the most bottom end torque I've ever seen. I also saw one on the dyno down there. Of course it was balanced but it just reeved smoother and cleaner than the flat tappet motors I've seen him run. Maybe even sound a little different? Here again it all comes down to what you are willing to spend. If you want it. You have to pay for it. Also I was down there last week dropping off another project and he had another 914 engine on the dyno. Didn't get to hear it run because something was out on the dyno but it was clean as a pin. All powder coated etc!!!!!! Even had Sync-link on the carbs. That is way cool too!!!

Seriously? The "Smoothest type for with the most bottom end torque you've ever seen"? I'm a little surprised to hear that, since in your posts you said you come from the T1 world and are new to T4's.

Really? I have seen and been around type fours for years but have only owned one since I bought my 914. I did a butt load of research thereafter. I have road in and driven MANY in the past year. I've been fortunate to see Jake dyno no less than five type fours in my trips down there this year. If you will look. My last posts were several months back and I have done a BUNCH of research in that time. However I guess since I have no been on this forum since it's conception my observations and comments are unwelcome?

Of course not. Everyone makes their own observations and yours are as valid as anyone else's. Just odd that a few months ago you were saying you knew nothing, now it's "the best you've ever seen." From that the obvious question is, "so how much have you actually seen?" Several months and a BUNCH of research, and the question's answered. Thanks.

Classic. DB asks for a show of hands of who is on my list, and all he can do is work to take credibility away from a member that made an honest observation. Those statements were his opinion, does he not rate an opinion?

This thread is about roller lifters. It isn't about who is on my list, nor is it about a member's prior experiences with other engines. Its clear that DB thought he'd hear crickets when he asked for a show of hands of those who are awaiting their T4 engine from me.

I only said I was new to type fours. I have been into aircooled VWs since the 1980s and have gone quicker in the 1/8 mile in a street legal bug than only but maybe one or two people. I have personally built aircooled type ones that made OVER 125 hp per cylinder to the ground. Needless to say I have experience with flat fours.

This engine is going to add new life to my LE!

And...when you start 'sharing' proprietary information, people like to have knockoffs made elsewhere and start marketing them as 'their own'. Like the shameless attempted ripoff of the DTM fan/cooling systems and the 'forged aluminum' LN Nickies. Fact, not speculation. (Edited for content)

Absolutely.

One photo will show what several years of work has produced, and it's not unique enough to Patent.

I know a few things about that process, I hold one and have 3 more pending.

Here's what 125 hp per cylinder aircooled looks like on the dyno, five years ago. Needless to say. This was not my first type one and definitely not the first flat four I had seen. BUT! I have slept in a Holiday Inn Express.

Dyno vid.

That guy running the dyno in that video is an asshole!

Of course he does, and like anyone else his opinion is worth more when he knows what he's talking about, less when he doesn't. When he said he'd only been around T4's for a year and doesn't know much about them isn't that curious? That's not what I said, it's what HE said. So I asked, and what exactly is the problem with that? And he answered, and I thanked him. Done, and that should be it.


Not at all, and I don't care a bit who's on your "list", or even the fact that you have a "list." I asked because I'm curious, just like the original poster. I've never seen an aircooled VW with roller lifters, you said there were some here in the U.S. and I was curious to know 1) if they were anyone I knew, and 2) whether there were any nearby so I could take a look for myself, maybe even see and hear one run. So what, exactly, is wrong with that?

I think you're a little thin-skinned, Jake, and way too ready to be offended or think there's some conspiracy against you. There isn't one, so far as I know. Lighten up.

There is a guy on the Samba that did RL's in a type 1 engine a few years ago. Had good luck them.

I think the final version was with Pauter lifters. If you go to the Pauter web site they have an all billet machined block( case) with their RL's inside. VERY cool!

That video is shot from the wrong end! Or is the image of the motor a secret

If your not a CW why spend BIG $$$'s on a 40 year old engine/technology. A modern day engine conversion just makes a lot more sense if you want reliability, HP or a quieter engine. To me, not anyone else, roller lifters in a type4 is akin to buying your Grandmother a Tit Job!

Not grandmother. Your long-time wife. You get to drive that engine.

Now that an idea

Ha ha ha ha. Tits. Ha ha ha ha.

Somewhere there's a grandma getting a tit job right now.

Jake made me laugh, post #24

Something I also say often.

The block might be 40 years old, but there is new technology in the motor. One could argue how "old" your Subaru motor is......I'm sure it is lacking "modern" tech like direct injection, variable intake and exhaust timing..etc..etc...

Even with pictures, I doubt many could replicate this setup....I can reverse engineer many things, but camshafts are like voodoo to me and not something I'd tackle.

modern engines are awesome! the only reason I don't retrofit the 914 is that fact that I lose the front trunk to the radiator